| bobbob United States. May 29 2012 05:30. Posts 267 | Profile # |
It's 32 partly because of Block Constructed, and it's a decent card in standard control decks at the moment. Also she is new (Liliana was like 40-50 when she came out or something?) and Tibalt has not found a home yet.
Person who tried to run a Tamiyo in legacy said that he really didn't like it, would have rather had a ponder almost every time.
Tamiyo at best for the other guy will spike up, but then drop. Liliana will hold value better than Tamiyo, and Tibalt might go somewhere and then he will hold value. |
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| Judicator United States. May 29 2012 08:23. Posts 5836 | Profile Blog # |
That's about right for current prices. Tamiyo might see a slight upswing depending what other PWs are there.
The legacy debate for Tamiyo is whether she's better than the 4th Jace.Last edit: 2012-05-29 08:24:54 |
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| hkf Australia. May 29 2012 11:39. Posts 322 | Profile Blog # |
I would not trade Tamiyo for a Liliana + Tibalt
mainly because I value Tibalt at value less than the cardboard its printed on. Does not generate card advantage or even selection (random discard hello)
That's my personal opinion and I subscribe to LSVs school of Luck Skill ValueLast edit: 2012-05-29 11:39:37 |
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| slyboogie United States. May 29 2012 12:06. Posts 2933 | Profile Blog # |
On May 29 2012 11:39 hkf wrote:
I would not trade Tamiyo for a Liliana + Tibalt
mainly because I value Tibalt at value less than the cardboard its printed on. Does not generate card advantage or even selection (random discard hello)
That's my personal opinion and I subscribe to LSVs school of Luck Skill Value
All Planeswalker's generate card advantage if they are used twice. The ability is just the quality of the card, but you can't expect a two mana Planeswalker to impact the board state in any overwhelming way. I don't think he's great but he's neat to play with. Someone better than us will probably make use of it. |
| | "So raise a glass to turnings of the season, And watch it as it arcs towards the sun" Don't Carry It All, The Decemberists |
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| ParanoiaDHerO United States. May 29 2012 12:42. Posts 171 | Profile # |
| I'd love to get into magic but just a glance at some sites sends me running. The amount of information and lack of knowing where to start literally reminds me of a nightmare, it's beyond overwhelming. |
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| Judicator United States. May 29 2012 13:17. Posts 5836 | Profile Blog # |
On May 29 2012 11:39 hkf wrote:
I would not trade Tamiyo for a Liliana + Tibalt
mainly because I value Tibalt at value less than the cardboard its printed on. Does not generate card advantage or even selection (random discard hello)
That's my personal opinion and I subscribe to LSVs school of Luck Skill Value
Against control, turn 2 PWs are a serious threat. The problem isnt Tibalt. Its the current format. That is not to say he cant find a home somewhere in the near future in some kind of UR build. Random discard only hurts consistently if you consistently have weak hands in which case you have a shitty or poorly positioned deck. Tamiyo will only be good in t2. Cheap costing spells will always have a shot of breaking out and that goes double for PWs. |
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| hkf Australia. May 29 2012 13:44. Posts 322 | Profile Blog # |
All Planeswalker's generate card advantage if they are used twice. The ability is just the quality of the card, but you can't expect a two mana Planeswalker to impact the board state in any overwhelming way.
His +1 does not generate ANY advantage. It's barely selection, because it's random. His -4 doesn't even generate advantage either.
Hence.. my reasoning. He's bad. I can see him being played in a RDW deck that uses some kind of discard mechanism for something, but otherwise, meh.
If I were playing ub or miracles I would not be unhappy with villain running out a t2 tibalt and +1ing forever (assuming he doesnt -6)Last edit: 2012-05-29 13:45:16 |
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| DCLXVI United States. May 29 2012 13:59. Posts 682 | Profile Blog # |
On May 29 2012 12:42 ParanoiaDHerO wrote:
I'd love to get into magic but just a glance at some sites sends me running. The amount of information and lack of knowing where to start literally reminds me of a nightmare, it's beyond overwhelming.
do you know anyone who plays? it is much easier if you get a friend to teach you. |
| | I can already see the ending |
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| slyboogie United States. May 29 2012 14:27. Posts 2933 | Profile Blog # |
On May 29 2012 13:44 hkf wrote:
Show nested quote +All Planeswalker's generate card advantage if they are used twice. The ability is just the quality of the card, but you can't expect a two mana Planeswalker to impact the board state in any overwhelming way.
His +1 does not generate ANY advantage. It's barely selection, because it's random. His -4 doesn't even generate advantage either. Hence.. my reasoning. He's bad. I can see him being played in a RDW deck that uses some kind of discard mechanism for something, but otherwise, meh. If I were playing ub or miracles I would not be unhappy with villain running out a t2 tibalt and +1ing forever (assuming he doesnt -6)
No, I don't mean card-advantage in the sense that Opportunity or Hymn to Tourach generates card advantage. Planeswalkers give the option to do something without using a card (except his or herself, obviously.) Would you say that using Tamiyo's +1 more than once doesn't generate card advantage because it doesn't put cards into your hand? Or if you use Jace's Unsummon once and his Brainstorm once - you could even say that you're even on cards, but you're, in reality, probably way ahead. Anyways, I'm sure you know what I mean, Planeswalkers let you do things that you have to have a card to do otherwise - ergo, card advantage on the second use.
EDIT: Syntax + SpellingLast edit: 2012-05-29 14:56:18 |
| | "So raise a glass to turnings of the season, And watch it as it arcs towards the sun" Don't Carry It All, The Decemberists |
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| Rainofpain United States. May 29 2012 23:57. Posts 125 | Profile # |
| A planeswalker is like a free spell without using another card every turn. That`s how it`s advantage. Last edit: 2012-05-29 23:57:53 |
| | It`s hard to read bad players because they`re bad - Idra |
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| Durp Canada. May 30 2012 00:40. Posts 2851 | Profile Blog # |
On May 29 2012 13:17 Judicator wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 11:39 hkf wrote:
I would not trade Tamiyo for a Liliana + Tibalt
mainly because I value Tibalt at value less than the cardboard its printed on. Does not generate card advantage or even selection (random discard hello)
That's my personal opinion and I subscribe to LSVs school of Luck Skill Value
Against control, turn 2 PWs are a serious threat. Tamiyo will only be good in t2. Cheap costing spells will always have a shot of breaking out and that goes double for PWs.
Completely agree.
Tibalt is exceptionally powerful vs control. His -4 ability is really strong since they'll often have many cards in hand, and their only response is to use their potential o-ring (they don't want to have o-ring tibalt) or try to crush him down with lingering souls (there's so much red burn around to deal with LS that it wouldn't be so effective). The problem is his +1 has too much drawback in the current format to be useful.
I've been trying to find a way to get Tibalt to work in a t2 deck, and have been tinkering around with some UR/G (splash) with miracle effects (thunderous wrath, bonfire of the damned, devastation tide and reforge the soul) and using Noxious Revival for recurrence. Tibalt was a neat fit in that deck, and if he ever got out turn 2 vs control it was an easy win (even with a poor deck).
Tibalt isn't a fantastic planeswalker, and his abilities aren't that good, but at 2 mana there will at some point be a way to use him effectively (I'm also looking at some sort of red deck wins with hellspark elemental, though I don't think that'll ever get beyond casually playable - lolwhut tibalt legacy red-deck?). Tamiyo is good in the format right now, and kinda neat in EDH, but won't do much after it cycles. I think it was a good trade.
Last edit: 2012-05-30 00:43:32 |
| | SOOOOOooooOOOOooooOOOOoo Many BANELINGS!! |
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| ParanoiaDHerO United States. May 30 2012 02:29. Posts 171 | Profile # |
On May 29 2012 13:59 DCLXVI wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 12:42 ParanoiaDHerO wrote:
I'd love to get into magic but just a glance at some sites sends me running. The amount of information and lack of knowing where to start literally reminds me of a nightmare, it's beyond overwhelming.
do you know anyone who plays? it is much easier if you get a friend to teach you.
I don't but I just found out theres this big "world magic cup qualifier" going on this coming weekend at a local shop and I may go try to involve myself in that. They have all day draft events taking place, would that be an okay place to start? Any advice would be helpful!
Please see this Judi :D |
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| Judicator United States. May 30 2012 04:15. Posts 5836 | Profile Blog # |
On May 30 2012 02:29 ParanoiaDHerO wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 13:59 DCLXVI wrote:
On May 29 2012 12:42 ParanoiaDHerO wrote:
I'd love to get into magic but just a glance at some sites sends me running. The amount of information and lack of knowing where to start literally reminds me of a nightmare, it's beyond overwhelming.
do you know anyone who plays? it is much easier if you get a friend to teach you.
I don't but I just found out theres this big "world magic cup qualifier" going on this coming weekend at a local shop and I may go try to involve myself in that. They have all day draft events taking place, would that be an okay place to start? Any advice would be helpful! Please see this Judi :D
It just depends on how serious you want to be; be aware that more serious = more $$$ investment (at the very least, upfront). I mean it's been a long time since I learned to play Magic, my friend started about 1.5-2 years ago and he started drafting at the local store/shop back near the end of Scars. Then he got into T2 with Tempered Steel (an aggro/linear deck), then expanded into EDH, then with the current Standard ended up playing Wolf-Run (ramp deck not as linear but not that complicated).
The only real thing I would suggest is that play a deck that you find interesting and just play it constantly until you understand the game more. As for basic game play things, you should go to Friday Night Magic events more than something like the WMCQ although you might meet more people at the WMCQ, the people at FMN are your local playgroup, and quite frankly, people are why I play this game.
So find people to play with first, then learn the game gradually, then start worrying about decks. Ask questions, figure out what can and can't happen ("technical Magic"), and go from there. |
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| ParanoiaDHerO United States. May 30 2012 04:28. Posts 171 | Profile # |
Thanks a lot for the response!
I'm reading a lot of the Magic site, a lot of helpful articles about deck building and the game. Also, with some simple googling I was able to answer quite a few basic questions revovling around acronyms and meta game deck comps.
But a question I did think of was can you use past sets in current play? I see that it goes from core to core every year, can you currently use magic 2011 cards to play? Thanks again.Last edit: 2012-05-30 04:40:06 |
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| DEN1ED United States. May 30 2012 05:26. Posts 776 | Profile # |
On May 30 2012 04:28 ParanoiaDHerO wrote:
Thanks a lot for the response!
I'm reading a lot of the Magic site, a lot of helpful articles about deck building and the game. Also, with some simple googling I was able to answer quite a few basic questions revovling around acronyms and meta game deck comps.
But a question I did think of was can you use past sets in current play? I see that it goes from core to core every year, can you currently use magic 2011 cards to play? Thanks again.
It depends what format you are playing and if the card has been reprinted or not. For instance, ponder was printed in M2010 but then again in M2012 so you can currently use it in standard. There are many different formats which allow for a wider range of sets to be used. For info on each format and what sets are legal in each format go here: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Resources.aspx?x=mtg/tcg/resources/formats-sanctioned |
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| Judicator United States. May 30 2012 07:14. Posts 5836 | Profile Blog # |
On May 30 2012 04:28 ParanoiaDHerO wrote:
Thanks a lot for the response!
I'm reading a lot of the Magic site, a lot of helpful articles about deck building and the game. Also, with some simple googling I was able to answer quite a few basic questions revovling around acronyms and meta game deck comps.
But a question I did think of was can you use past sets in current play? I see that it goes from core to core every year, can you currently use magic 2011 cards to play? Thanks again.
DENIED already answered your question so....
Figuring out all your (and your opponent's) available options at any given board state (game state) is something that comes with experience. For new players, drafting/limited formats are the best way to get into it.
Some basic habits you should get into...
1. UNTAP FIRST - Do not draw a card first. Phases of Magic goes from Untap-Upkeep-Draw.
2. LOOK AT THE CARD YOU DRAW - Before you stick it in your hand, Miracle cards in the last set kind of forces players to do this when they should have been doing this all along.
3. ATTEMPT TO DECLARE ATTACKERS - Before you actually attack; don't just throw your creatures sideways, say you are declaring attackers, that's the cue for opposing players to do anything before your creatures are counted as attackers or attacking.
4. DO NOT PILE SHUFFLE LIKE A RETARD - This one irks me the most when players bring up magical numbers to pile shuffle by as if it was bestowed upon them by some divine revelation while on their holy Magic pilgrimage. Seriously, 8+ normal card shuffles randomizes the deck, takes far less time. I pile shuffle decks after building them and after long games where most of the deck has been drawn. Even then you need to shuffle them in a non-retarded fashion.
There are a couple other things I am probably forgetting...but whatever. |
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| hkf Australia. May 30 2012 08:05. Posts 322 | Profile Blog # |
4. DO NOT PILE SHUFFLE LIKE A RETARD -
Don't listen to this. Pile shuffling randomises better than riffling.
Re:Tibalt
His -4 ability is really strong
Are you kidding me.
Sudden impact is really strong? :s
This is my problem with Tibalt, his abilities all seem to be aggressive but there is currently no shell for him to fit in.Last edit: 2012-05-30 08:09:21 |
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| Chiharu Harukaze May 30 2012 08:13. Posts 6455 | Profile # |
On May 30 2012 08:05 hkf wrote:Don't listen to this. Pile shuffling randomises better than riffling.
Except only pile shuffling is not considered sufficient randomisation. Pile shuffling and cutting the deck is also insufficient. (Source: Judge Seminar San Francisco 2011 Worlds) Of course, if done properly it's a decent technique. But it's not recommended. Even breaking up mana in your piles during pile shuffling to distribute it evenly is considered cheating because you're manipulating your deck.
On May 30 2012 08:05 hkf wrote:
Sudden impact is really strong? :s
This is my problem with Tibalt, his abilities all seem to be aggressive but there is currently no shell for him to fit in.
You drop Tibalt on turn 2. You can activate his -4 by turn 4 earliest. A lot of control decks or slow decks would probably still have quite a few cards in hand, especially if they're draw-go or something. With some additional board presence, that's a lot of pressure. Although would need the deck to be built around him probably.Last edit: 2012-05-30 08:19:45 |
| | It's like, "Is the Federation's Mobile Suit some kind of monster?" (I am not MoonBear's smurf. Definitely not.) |
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| hkf Australia. May 30 2012 08:28. Posts 322 | Profile Blog # |
On May 30 2012 08:13 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 08:05 hkf wrote:
4. DO NOT PILE SHUFFLE LIKE A RETARD -
Don't listen to this. Pile shuffling randomises better than riffling.
Except only pile shuffling is not considered sufficient randomisation. Pile shuffling and cutting the deck is also insufficient. (Source: Judge Seminar San Francisco 2011 Worlds) Of course, if done properly it's a decent technique. But it's not recommended. Even breaking up mana in your piles during pile shuffling to distribute it evenly is considered cheating because you're manipulating your deck.
Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 08:05 hkf wrote:
Sudden impact is really strong? :s
This is my problem with Tibalt, his abilities all seem to be aggressive but there is currently no shell for him to fit in.
You drop Tibalt on turn 2. You can activate his -4 by turn 4 earliest. A lot of control decks or slow decks would probably still have quite a few cards in hand, especially if they're draw-go or something. With some additional board presence, that's a lot of pressure. Although would need the deck to be built around him probably.
Because pile shuffling, by itself, is manipulatable. That's why riffles are required to 'randomise' it afterwards.
ie, stacking your entire deck in order spells-lands then 2x 5 pile shuffles will 'weave' your deck into 2 spells 1 land throughout (mostly) assuming a 2:1 spell/land ratio (40 spells 20 lands). Doesn't detract the fact that it's a far superior randomisation technique to riffling.Last edit: 2012-05-30 08:28:51 |
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| Judicator United States. May 30 2012 08:42. Posts 5836 | Profile Blog # |
On May 30 2012 08:28 hkf wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 08:13 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:
On May 30 2012 08:05 hkf wrote:
4. DO NOT PILE SHUFFLE LIKE A RETARD -
Don't listen to this. Pile shuffling randomises better than riffling.
Except only pile shuffling is not considered sufficient randomisation. Pile shuffling and cutting the deck is also insufficient. (Source: Judge Seminar San Francisco 2011 Worlds) Of course, if done properly it's a decent technique. But it's not recommended. Even breaking up mana in your piles during pile shuffling to distribute it evenly is considered cheating because you're manipulating your deck.
On May 30 2012 08:05 hkf wrote:
Sudden impact is really strong? :s
This is my problem with Tibalt, his abilities all seem to be aggressive but there is currently no shell for him to fit in.
You drop Tibalt on turn 2. You can activate his -4 by turn 4 earliest. A lot of control decks or slow decks would probably still have quite a few cards in hand, especially if they're draw-go or something. With some additional board presence, that's a lot of pressure. Although would need the deck to be built around him probably.
Because pile shuffling, by itself, is manipulatable. That's why riffles are required to 'randomise' it afterwards. ie, stacking your entire deck in order spells-lands then 2x 5 pile shuffles will 'weave' your deck into 2 spells 1 land throughout (mostly) assuming a 2:1 spell/land ratio (40 spells 20 lands). Doesn't detract the fact that it's a far superior randomisation technique to riffling.
Care to show the article where pile is better than riffling? |
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