Magic: The Gathering Online

Should, uh, maybe do a little research before you throw claims like "pile shuffling being better is confirmation bias"

http://www.kibble.net/magic/magic09.php

DEN1ED United States. May 31 2012 07:36. Posts 761

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Ok, you really make no sense. You say you solve these problems by being diligent. Checking to make sure your deck is 60 and SB 15 before you present IS being diligent. I also have no worries about my deck and sideboarding because of these habbits...

Judicator United States. May 31 2012 08:56. Posts 5710

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On May 31 2012 07:28 hkf wrote:
Should, uh, maybe do a little research before you throw claims like "pile shuffling being better is confirmation bias"

http://www.kibble.net/magic/magic09.php

You really need to read the bullshit (it really is bullshit considering he footnotes a web page that no longer exists and see below) that you like posting.

Again my analysis holds true: Riffle shuffling is a supremely effective shuffling method. When playing a game, the best thing to do is probably pile shuffle with seven piles first, in order to mix up your deck from the previous game. After that, three or four riffle shuffles are incredibly effective. Seven or eight riffle shuffles before each game can be incredibly tedious, but the existence complete randomization is still shaky.

That's some credible stuff right there. His analysis is non-existent (the equivalent of herp derp I read an article and now have "analysis"). Better yet, where is the evidence that sequence of shuffling methods is better than a straight riffle shuffle throughout? Better yet still, where is he getting the number of shuffles from or the number of piles? Better yet some more (see how many holes this thing has?), why is he saying 7/8 riffle shuffles is incredibly tedious when the goal is to randomize the deck (and when in reality riffling is quicker than piling)? On top of all that, PROBABLY.

As for the other topic with piling, I guess it's just more of a personal issue and things I noticed in players. Also DEN1ED, I think we are saying the same thing, I agree with you about preparation before the tournament. What I am saying is that if individuals are relying on after-the-fact methods to catch problems, that is completely pointless and wrong for the already stated reasons. Being diligent isn't counting your cards when you pile shuffle (if the card is gone, it's gone already which means you are already fucked to some extent), I think we are saying the same thing here.

Last edit: 2012-05-31 08:57:58

Get it by your hands...

slyboogie United States. May 31 2012 09:06. Posts 2823

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Last edit: 2012-05-31 09:06:56

" 'All that is very well,' answered Candide, 'but let us cultivate our garden.' " - Candide, Voltaire

Jaksiel United States. May 31 2012 09:07. Posts 3266

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As someone with a lot of tournament experience myself (including a GP Top 8), I really fail to see how pile shuffling to count your deck is indicative of a 'lapse of concentration'. It's just an extra layer of protection. After I sideboard, I check the contents of my sideboard to make sure it's what I want and I pile to count after I put my sideboard away. Maybe a card fell on the ground, it happens.

Last edit: 2012-05-31 09:08:11

Zero fighting.

hkf Australia. May 31 2012 09:36. Posts 322

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On May 31 2012 09:07 Jaksiel wrote:
As someone with a lot of tournament experience myself (including a GP Top 8), I really fail to see how pile shuffling to count your deck is indicative of a 'lapse of concentration'. It's just an extra layer of protection. After I sideboard, I check the contents of my sideboard to make sure it's what I want and I pile to count after I put my sideboard away. Maybe a card fell on the ground, it happens.

this

inb4 judicator trying to disprove pile shuffling as an effective anti-clump method

wunsun Canada. May 31 2012 11:12. Posts 587

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I disagree Judicator. I don't mind pile shuffling to ensure that you have the correct number of cards. I think it's good as a safeguard to ensure that you boarded in correctly. Just in case.

DCLXVI United States. May 31 2012 11:35. Posts 681

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I pile shuffle once because I always shuffle the same way, and when I play limited without sleeves the lands tend to stick together when riffle shuffling so I included a pile shuffle into my routine to help with that. It is not the first or the last shuffle I do so the deck is still randomized, I just make sure the older lands are not sticking together.

I can already see the ending

Judicator United States. May 31 2012 12:51. Posts 5710

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On May 31 2012 11:12 wunsun wrote:
I disagree Judicator. I don't mind pile shuffling to ensure that you have the correct number of cards. I think it's good as a safeguard to ensure that you boarded in correctly. Just in case.

See I count the sideboard to verify that I have the 60 like most of you. I am not saying piling to count is a lapse, I am saying the lapse is if you are using piling only to count. That's incredibly backwards, if it's part of your routine, whatever, but if it's part of your routine to solely count, get a better routine.

As for the card dropping on the ground excuse, I am not putting in myself in a situation where a card can drop on the ground, if it does it's gonna be because I dropped my deck.

I have my personal reasons for that namely because I have seen friends get game losses for having extra cards in their tournament deck boxes in PTQ T8s. I forgot to deboard once for a T8. Simply put, only my 75 and the relevant tokens are in that deck box, that prep is all done beforehand etc.etc.

Also hfk, did you bother reading the link you posted? I don't know why you want to talk about proof, I asked for any kind of credible proof for riffling vs. pile at the start of this whole discussion and nobody has provided any beyond personal experience.

Get it by your hands...

ParanoiaDHerO United States. June 01 2012 06:55. Posts 170

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Hey Judi, do you have any experience with RW humans? That's what I plan to draft tomorrow, or if I don't get what I need maybe UR or UG.

Judicator United States. June 01 2012 07:21. Posts 5710

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RW Humans depends on Ringleader/Goldnight Commander/Thatchers Rebellion/Kessig Malcontents. Prominent 2 drops are Kruin Striker and Thraben Valiant. Basically your cards all cost 4 CMC or lower mostly.

Also, don't go into a draft deciding what you plan to draft. It's nice that you have an idea on what the archetypes are, but don't force anything that isn't there.

I don't know about anyone else, but I find this draft format to be extremely difficult to draft. More often than not, you are scrapping together 23 playables rather than cutting down to 23. You have to pay attention to your curve since the format is deceptively fast with Soulbound, you have to pay attention to card synergies (once again courtesy of flicker and soulbound), and you have to track the combat tricks (once again courtesy of flicker, soulbound, and Zealous Strike). This leads to the fact that playing removal is really risky, because you see U1 open or W or even U2 open you can't even reliably cast any kind of removal.

Get it by your hands...

ParanoiaDHerO United States. June 01 2012 07:27. Posts 170

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Thanks for the quick reply. I went ahead and did a lot of reading and decided that type sounded best for me but also really checked into UG and UR using Mist Ravens and Wing Crafters if they present themselves. I didn't assume it was a good idea to LOCK myself into RW humans but I figured at least I'd know what i was looking for after a lot of simulated drafts online. What do you prefer to draft if given the opportunity? I know like you said, it's not always that easy but I definitely wanted to form a solid game plan so I don't look like a super chump tomorrow.

ManyCookies June 01 2012 08:09. Posts 627

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I've had interesting experiences with Black in AVR Limited. It's the weakest color, but the stigma associated with it is strong enough that even the really solid cards, the ones worth going into B for (Barter in Blood, Homicidal Seclusion, Demonic Rising, Evernight Shade) often get wheeled around. I did quite well with a mono-black and a UB deck.

Last edit: 2012-06-01 08:25:35

Judicator United States. June 01 2012 08:25. Posts 5710

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On June 01 2012 07:27 ParanoiaDHerO wrote:
Thanks for the quick reply. I went ahead and did a lot of reading and decided that type sounded best for me but also really checked into UG and UR using Mist Ravens and Wing Crafters if they present themselves. I didn't assume it was a good idea to LOCK myself into RW humans but I figured at least I'd know what i was looking for after a lot of simulated drafts online. What do you prefer to draft if given the opportunity? I know like you said, it's not always that easy but I definitely wanted to form a solid game plan so I don't look like a super chump tomorrow.

I like long games with stalled states until I can bury someone through situations or mill. I have actually milled quite a few games this format (without Dread Waters mind you). Blue is where I am sitting at, I find myself using Green as the pair color more though. My idea of a deck is tempo control and then beat you through flyers. Smuggler/Mist Raven is a hard lock in this format many times. Likewise, curve out RW is almost impossible to beat.

I draft whatever is passed which is normally Blue. Black I feel is only supportable by 1 person at the table in AVR. The deck I have found myself really appreciating is the UGR deck using Borderland Rangers to fix casting costs and because there are times where you get like 3rd pick pack 1 and there are literally 0 cards you want to play (if you have a direction already).

Get it by your hands...

aphorism United States. June 01 2012 08:46. Posts 226

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@ParanoiDHerO, I'd like to endorse UG soulbond as another deck you should look for in your draft. It's the deck that I always try to draft as I feel it is more consistent than RW humans, which can be bad if don't pick up the core cards Judicator mentioned.

For soulbond creatures, Trusted Forcemage/Druid's Familiar should be prioritized over any other soulbond guys, but Elgaud Shieldmate, Nightshade Peddler and Tandem Lookout are good too. Wingcrafter is a card that gets better in UG soulbond, but you still need good creatures for it to be useful. Flowering Lumberknot is worth running if you have 7-8 soulbond guys, but not otherwise, and you should run 2 at most.

The non-soulbond creatures you should look for are the 3-mana 3-power guys, wandering wolf, borderland ranger, and mist raven. High-cost fatties like vorstclaw and yew spirit are fine as well.

The deck doesn't have much removal, and joint assault and terrifying presence are the only combat tricks worth looking for. Card draw is easier to come by in these colors, and people haven't figured out that Triumph of Ferocity is really good, so you can probably pick them up late.

@Judicator, Mill is actually quite viable in this format, I've found. If you can pick up 3-4 Dreadwaters, or even a single Stern Mentor, then you can easily win a stalled game. Stalling is kind of hard, as blue isn't particularly good at blocking, but going into white for angelic walls or green for soulbond guys usually works out well.

ParanoiaDHerO United States. June 01 2012 08:56. Posts 170

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Thanks Aph, I had a UG deck sort of planned but your analysis will help me if I decide to take that route.

Judicator United States. June 01 2012 09:40. Posts 5710

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Triumph is a wishy washy card, some times its really good and some time its really bad.

Mill isn't viable for the reason you already mentioned, my wins just come from Stern Mentor and neither of us having good attacks. Dread Waters is not a card simply because if this format doesn't let you cast Archangel consistently or a 7 mana control magic, what are the chances of you casting Dread Waters for a reasonable amount?

Green and White I feel are the deepest colors with Blue Red and Black. Black is just hard to judge since your deck pretty much revolves around Homicidal Seclusion.

Get it by your hands...

bumatlarge United States. June 01 2012 10:47. Posts 3844

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What makes mono-black really good sometimes is that all the cards work together, but if you are missing a bunch of the money cards, your deck will suck.

Blood Artist, Homicidal Seclusion, Demonic Taskmaster, Barter in Blood.

Then these cards all become amazing when they are with the money cards. Butcher Ghoul, Bone splinters, Soulcage Fiend, Undead Executioner, Bloodflow Connoisseur, Crypt Creeper, Driver of the Dead, Evernight Shade.

Most of the black cards I didn't mention are either rare, pretty bad, or are completely fine without the money cards. (removal and non-death related creatures)

So if you see multiple money cards come your way, you probably should be black. If you don't see one, you probably shouldn't be black. It's shallow enough that one black drafter 1-4 places ahead of you will ruin your deck. The other colors manage to still be playable but I find them much easier to go two color. When mono black gets its cards its amazing. (still grab the money cards when you aren't mono black of course, they are just generically awesome cards.

Some other weird stuff, blues only value cards to bounce are mist ravens and vanguards, Which makes mistraven the best limited card in blue. Red has a buttload of great aggressive creatures. Green is insane. White looks pretty good, but it needs good stuff in other colors to be good. But it goes with everything.

From my experience this is what an 8 pod drafts 75% of the time in my store:

RW; bombs in decks; G/anything; how many mist ravens are in your deck; decks with lots of bombs; monoblack; Look at my good rares you can't beat; and then some sweet brew that someone did that isn't going to win.

Together but separate, like oatmeal

bumatlarge United States. June 01 2012 10:49. Posts 3844

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And when I say G/anything, I mean druid's familiar and friends.

Together but separate, like oatmeal

ParanoiaDHerO United States. June 01 2012 11:21. Posts 170

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Can you give me a priority for bloodflow conn/driver of the dead/crypt creeper? Is it based on if I have others or should I be taking one exclusively over the others unless I have 4 of them?