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icezar Germany. October 26 2010 02:44. Posts 230

Profile #

Last edit: 2010-10-26 02:45:42

Bumblebees United States. October 26 2010 03:00. Posts 310

Profile #

On October 25 2010 23:56 OverLulz wrote:
@bumblebees: thank you for your explanation.

In my case it says the following (final output)
+ Show Spoiler +

Doing your calculation I come up the the following result:
4 extractors means 2 bases in gas
54 - 12 = 42
42/16=2.6.
42 drones on minearls means 3 bases.

But it still adds one more hatchery. It calculated 3 hatches and a lair. (69172K games played.)

Given the excess minerals and gas, I would assume that means the build time was limited by larva. An extra hatchery would provide that necessary larva.

You can tell if that's true by looking at the last actions it performs. If it's starved for larva then it will be making units all the way up to the end.

Phrencys Canada. October 26 2010 04:27. Posts 263

Profile #

On October 25 2010 20:37 Mushin wrote:
If anyone has requests for builds, please let me know. I have a few cores I can use for this purpose. I'll post the results up here.

This is the 7 roach build with 16 drones, which is finished at 4:37.

I'd like to see builds pop out assuming a steady average of drones production and replacement of drones used for buildings.

E.g: a Command Center can build 3.5 SCVs/minute. So in the 4:37 mark, a zerg would need something like 22 drones to be on par with a terran opponent.

For example using a 6:00 waypoint, I'd like to give it a criteria of (6:00 x 3,5) + 6 = 27 drones. So by the same logic, it should be more like 22 drones at the 4:37 mark.

This is kind of a reversed question for the program, and I guess it would take trial/error to get it answered: How many roaches can you squeeze in 4:40ish minutes with a 22drones floor? I wonder if it's possible to pump more than 2-3 since you will be very limited by larvas. Perhaps 20drones would be more reasonable since you do lose 2 by making that Roach Warren and Spawning Pool.

So if you could toy with ideas such as 3-4roaches+20 drones, 3-4 roaches + 22 drones, 5 roaches+20-22 drones (basically a 5RR without the metabolic boost), etc.

Edit: Another cute thing vs zerg would be the fastest way to get 5-7 roaches with +1 attack since upgraded roaches 2shot zlings just like zealots.

Last edit: 2010-10-26 04:34:44

Lomilar United States. October 26 2010 04:49. Posts 130

Profile #

Bumblebees is working on optimization, he's already pointed out some good stuff that increases the speed of the engine by quite a lot.

BTW, we're moving to IRC for chat. irc.quakenet.org #EvolutionChamber

Bumblebees United States. October 26 2010 05:29. Posts 310

Profile #

On October 26 2010 04:27 Phrencys wrote:

Show nested quote +

I just finished coding this before I read your post.

Erzz Canada. October 26 2010 05:52. Posts 183

Profile Blog #

I actually had just been telling it how many drones I wanted

Turns out you can get 2 fully saturated bases, a spawning pool, a roach warren, and a spire all before 7 minutes. That's pretty cool.

One thing I notice is it doesn't seem to spawn larva for both hatcheries. Even with 2 hatches, only 1 larva spawns every 15 seconds. Or maybe I'm just not seeing it.

Last edit: 2010-10-26 05:56:52

redviper Pakistan. October 26 2010 06:38. Posts 1868

Profile #

Any chance this could work on linux? I could run it on a large number of cores (64 and above) to discover new builds.

449 United States. October 26 2010 07:01. Posts 53

Profile #

On October 26 2010 06:38 redviper wrote:
Any chance this could work on linux? I could run it on a large number of cores (64 and above) to discover new builds.

The program is a .jar file, so yes.

Last edit: 2010-10-26 07:01:32

redviper Pakistan. October 26 2010 07:08. Posts 1868

Profile #

Oh you are correct. The java vm on my machine was broken, I could run it fine on a different machine.

hid Sweden. October 26 2010 09:06. Posts 6

Profile #

On October 25 2010 23:27 Ctuchik wrote:

Show nested quote +

Just got a new one, 14 hatch 13 pool. 6:27. 42 million games played. Queens at 17 and 21.

Not sure if I actually got all the waypoints right (looks like it), but the best BO I found for those requirements was 6:25, after running the program for about 10 minutes. (Guessing there might be a few more seconds to shave off since it came up with that in just 10 minutes?)

http://pastebin.com/Ub6NHpM5

autodidact

teemh Canada. October 26 2010 09:14. Posts 120

Profile #

Bug: when I use the minimum supply build for hatch and pool it build too many overlords for no reason. I can't even limit it.

DeltruS Canada. October 26 2010 09:18. Posts 2101

Profile Blog #

Is there a way to set energy required? I want to see how fast I can get out a single infestor with a usable neural parasite.

Masters Zerg. I just found out my name is an anagram of strudel. Delicious! http://grooveshark.com/#/deltrus/music

hid Sweden. October 26 2010 09:36. Posts 6

Profile #

On October 26 2010 09:18 Kraz.Del wrote:
Is there a way to set energy required? I want to see how fast I can get out a single infestor with a usable neural parasite.

1) Look up energy regen rates @ google/liquipedia.
2) Calculate the time needed for the infestor to reach the NP energy requirement
3) Add this time to the build time.
4) Done?

btw, might wanna run another simulation and see if there's a way to get faster times if you research infestor energy (double infestation pit or something crazy, you never know!

autodidact

Bumblebees United States. October 26 2010 10:04. Posts 310

Profile #

On October 26 2010 09:14 teemh wrote:
Bug: when I use the minimum supply build for hatch and pool it build too many overlords for no reason. I can't even limit it.

Example build? I can't seem to make this happen.

MasTer9006 United States. October 26 2010 11:38. Posts 14

Profile #

This is really cool. Thanks for the hard work keep it up!

accqua Canada. October 26 2010 11:44. Posts 1

Profile #

"Skills wins games, but teamwork wins championships."

Skrag United States. October 26 2010 11:49. Posts 643

Profile #

Haven't read the entire thing to see if this is covered, but I was able to beat the 5 muta time by quite a bit, just by putting what I know about one-base muta builds to use.

12extractor
12pool
15extractor
Lair as soon as pool finishes, spire and queen as soon as lair finishes, build drones and overlords up until spawn larvae is almost finished, making sure the hatch has 1 larva when spawn finishes.

Time was 6:35 for the 5th muta (all 5 at once actually)

Also, there's something wonky going on if it's going 10OL instead of 9OL to optimize anything that doesn't start the pool until 12 or later. 9OL passes 10OL economically *very* quickly, and passes an extractor trick economically on drone 13.

"Just go *@#$ing kill him!" -- Day[9] "Thanks for being a jackass though! Enjoy your time on the forums!" - Artosis

Bumblebees United States. October 26 2010 12:24. Posts 310

Profile #

On October 26 2010 11:49 Skrag wrote:
Haven't read the entire thing to see if this is covered, but I was able to beat the 5 muta time by quite a bit, just by putting what I know about one-base muta builds to use.

12extractor
12pool
15extractor
Lair as soon as pool finishes, spire and queen as soon as lair finishes, build drones and overlords up until spawn larvae is almost finished, making sure the hatch has 1 larva when spawn finishes.

Time was 6:35 for the 5th muta (all 5 at once actually)

Also, there's something wonky going on if it's going 10OL instead of 9OL to optimize anything that doesn't start the pool until 12 or later. 9OL passes 10OL economically *very* quickly, and passes an extractor trick economically on drone 13.

0017 finds 6:34 muta fairly fast for me. It doesn't seem that bad?

The 9/10OL is because of how it handle's resources, and the fact that it is not trying for optimal economy. It's trying to get to a specific game state as fast as possible, which means frequently the timing is very tight. What is optimal the very instant the BO finishes may be horrible the second after.

There are things to deal with it though, and a few smart people have some good ideas on how to improve it

edit: when I finished writing this post, it was at 6:25 5 muta

+ Show Spoiler +

@0:00 M:50 G:0 L:3 S:6/10 BuildDrone
@0:13 M:51 G:0 L:2 S

/10 BuildDrone
@0:15 Spawned: Larva+1
@0:17 Spawned: Drone+1
@0:24 M:52 G:0 L:2 S:8/10 BuildDrone
@0:30 Spawned: Drone+1
@0:30 Spawned: Larva+1
@0:34 M:54 G:0 L:2 S

/10 BuildDrone
@0:41 Spawned: Drone+1
@0:45 Spawned: Larva+1
@0:51 Spawned: Drone+1
@0:51 M:106 G:0 L:2 S:10/10 BuildOverlord
@1:00 Spawned: Larva+1
@1:15 Spawned: Larva+1
@1:16 Spawned: Overlord+1
@1:16 M:182 G:0 L:3 S:10/18 BuildDrone
@1:16 M:132 G:0 L:2 S:11/18 BuildDrone
@1:16 M:82 G:0 L:1 S:12/18 BuildDrone
@1:31 Spawned: Larva+1
@1:31 M:139 G:0 L:1 S:13/18 BuildDrone
@1:33 Spawned: Drone+1
@1:33 Spawned: Drone+1
@1:33 Spawned: Drone+1
@1:44 M:203 G:0 L:0 S:14/18 BuildSpawningPool
@1:46 Spawned: Larva+1
@1:48 Spawned: Drone+1
@1:48 M:37 G:0 L:1 S:13/18 BuildExtractor
@1:53 M:54 G:0 L:1 S:12/18 BuildDrone
@1:56 M:30 G:0 L:0 S:13/18 BuildExtractor
@2:01 Spawned: Larva+1
@2:02 M:52 G:0 L:1 S:12/18 BuildDrone
@2:10 Spawned: Drone+1
@2:16 Spawned: Larva+1
@2:16 M:116 G:0 L:1 S:13/18 BuildOverlord
@2:18 Spawned: Extractor+1
@2:19 Spawned: Drone+1
@2:26 Spawned: Extractor+1
@2:31 Spawned: Larva+1
@2:31 M:109 G:38 L:1 S:13/18 BuildDrone
@2:41 Spawned: Overlord+1
@2:46 Spawned: Larva+1
@2:48 Spawned: Drone+1
@2:49 Spawned: Spawning Pool+1
@2:50 M:153 G:110 L:1 S:14/26 BuildLair
@3:01 Spawned: Larva+1
@3:16 Spawned: Larva+1
@4:10 Spawned: Lairs+1
@4:10 M:452 G:314 L:3 S:14/26 BuildSpire
@4:10 M:252 G:114 L:3 S:13/26 BuildQueen
@5:00 Spawned: Queen+1
@5:45 Spawned: Larva+4
@5:50 Spawned: Spire+1
@5:50 M:597 G:494 L

S:15/26 BuildMutalisk
@5:50 M:497 G:394 L:6 S:17/26 BuildMutalisk
@5:50 M:397 G:294 L:5 S:19/26 BuildMutalisk
@5:50 M:297 G:194 L:4 S:21/26 BuildMutalisk
@5:52 M:206 G:101 L:3 S:23/26 BuildMutalisk
@5:52 M:106 G:1 L:2 S:25/26 BuildOverlord
@6:01 M:51 G:36 L:1 S:25/26 BuildDrone
@6:05 Spawned: Larva+1
@6:17 Spawned: Overlord+1
@6:18 Spawned: Drone+1
@6:20 Spawned: Larva+1
@6:23 Spawned: Mutalisk+1
@6:23 Spawned: Mutalisk+1
@6:23 Spawned: Mutalisk+1
@6:23 Spawned: Mutalisk+1
@6:25 Spawned: Mutalisk+1
Satisfied.
Number of actions in build order: 41
---Final Output---
At time: 6:25
Minerals: 124 Gas: 127 Supply: 26/34
Drones: 14
Overlords: 4
Queens: 1
Mutalisks: 5
Lairs: 1
Gas Extractors: 2
Spawning Pools: 1
Spire: 1
------------------
Mon Oct 25 23:24:43 EDT 2010: 414451.5981415078

Last edit: 2010-10-26 12:26:52

HanSoo United States. October 26 2010 13:54. Posts 17

Profile #

Alternatively with more of an economy focus (my Disable All-ins checked, which is now apparently merged into the main trunk), it gave me 6:33 with 24 drones.

+ Show Spoiler +

@0:00 M:50 G:0 L:3 S:6/10 BuildDrone
@0:13 M:51 G:0 L:2 S

/10 BuildDrone
@0:15 Spawned: Larva+1
@0:17 Spawned: Drone+1
@0:24 M:52 G:0 L:2 S:8/10 BuildDrone
@0:30 Spawned: Drone+1
@0:30 Spawned: Larva+1
@0:34 M:54 G:0 L:2 S

/10 BuildDrone
@0:41 Spawned: Drone+1
@0:45 Spawned: Larva+1
@0:51 Spawned: Drone+1
@0:51 M:106 G:0 L:2 S:10/10 BuildOverlord
@1:00 Spawned: Larva+1
@1:01 M

6 G:0 L:2 S:10/10 ExtractorTrick
@1:01 M:51 G:0 L:2 S

/10 BuildDrone
@1:03 Spawned: Extractor Trick Finished, Drone Restored
@1:15 Spawned: Larva+1
@1:16 Spawned: Overlord+1
@1:16 M:126 G:0 L:2 S:11/18 BuildDrone
@1:16 M

6 G:0 L:1 S:12/18 BuildDrone
@1:18 Spawned: Drone+1
@1:30 Spawned: Larva+1
@1:30 M:133 G:0 L:1 S:13/18 BuildExtractor
@1:33 Spawned: Drone+1
@1:33 Spawned: Drone+1
@1:42 M:206 G:0 L:1 S:12/18 BuildSpawningPool
@1:45 Spawned: Larva+1
@1:48 M:53 G:0 L:2 S:11/18 BuildDrone
@1:54 M:50 G:0 L:1 S:12/18 BuildDrone
@2:00 Spawned: Extractor+1
@2:00 Spawned: Larva+1
@2:00 M:47 G:0 L:1 S:13/18 MineGas
@2:00 M:47 G:0 L:1 S:13/18 MineGas
@2:00 M:47 G:0 L:1 S:13/18 BuildExtractor
@2:02 Mining: +1 on gas
@2:02 Mining: +1 on gas
@2:05 Spawned: Drone+1
@2:05 M:50 G:5 L:1 S:12/18 BuildDrone
@2:11 Spawned: Drone+1
@2:15 Spawned: Larva+1
@2:15 M:65 G:19 L:1 S:13/18 BuildDrone
@2:15 M:15 G:19 L:0 S:14/18 MineGas
@2:17 Mining: +1 on gas
@2:22 Spawned: Drone+1
@2:30 Spawned: Extractor+1
@2:30 Spawned: Larva+1
@2:30 M:115 G:47 L:1 S:14/18 BuildDrone
@2:30 M:65 G:47 L:0 S:15/18 MineGas
@2:32 Spawned: Drone+1
@2:32 Mining: +1 on gas
@2:45 Spawned: Larva+1
@2:45 M:170 G:89 L:1 S:15/18 BuildDrone
@2:45 M:120 G:89 L:0 S:16/18 MineGas
@2:47 Spawned: Spawning Pool+1
@2:47 Spawned: Drone+1
@2:47 Mining: +1 on gas
@2:50 M:153 G:105 L:0 S:16/18 BuildLair
@3:00 Spawned: Larva+1
@3:00 M

4 G:38 L:1 S:16/18 BuildDrone
@3:02 Spawned: Drone+1
@3:15 Spawned: Larva+1
@3:15 M:139 G:87 L:1 S:17/18 BuildOverlord
@3:17 Spawned: Drone+1
@3:30 Spawned: Larva+1
@3:30 M:166 G:137 L:1 S:17/18 BuildDrone
@3:40 Spawned: Overlord+1
@3:40 M:202 G:170 L:0 S:18/26 MineGas
@3:42 Mining: +1 on gas
@3:45 Spawned: Larva+1
@3:45 M:241 G:188 L:1 S:18/26 BuildDrone
@3:47 Spawned: Drone+1
@4:00 Spawned: Larva+1
@4:00 M:318 G:245 L:1 S:19/26 BuildDrone
@4:02 Spawned: Drone+1
@4:10 Spawned: Lairs+1
@4:15 Spawned: Larva+1
@4:15 M:405 G:302 L:1 S:20/26 BuildOverlord
@4:15 M:305 G:302 L:0 S:20/26 BuildSpire
@4:17 Spawned: Drone+1
@4:21 M:158 G:125 L:0 S:19/26 BuildQueen
@4:30 Spawned: Larva+1
@4:30 M

2 G:159 L:1 S:21/26 BuildDrone
@4:40 Spawned: Overlord+1
@4:45 Spawned: Larva+1
@4:45 M:180 G:216 L:1 S:22/34 BuildDrone
@4:47 Spawned: Drone+1
@5:00 Spawned: Larva+1
@5:00 M:277 G:273 L:1 S:23/34 BuildDrone
@5:02 Spawned: Drone+1
@5:11 Spawned: Queen+1
@5:15 Spawned: Larva+1
@5:15 M:383 G:330 L:1 S:24/34 BuildDrone
@5:17 Spawned: Drone+1
@5:30 Spawned: Larva+1
@5:30 M:499 G:387 L:1 S:25/34 BuildOverlord
@5:32 Spawned: Drone+1
@5:45 Spawned: Larva+1
@5:45 M:570 G:444 L:1 S:25/34 BuildOverlord
@5:55 Spawned: Spire+1
@5:55 Spawned: Overlord+1
@5:56 Spawned: Larva+4
@5:56 M:595 G:486 L:4 S:25/42 BuildMutalisk
@5:56 M:495 G:386 L:3 S:27/42 BuildMutalisk
@5:56 M:395 G:286 L:2 S:29/42 BuildMutalisk
@5:56 M:295 G:186 L:1 S:31/42 BuildMutalisk
@6:00 Spawned: Larva+1
@6:00 M:241 G:101 L:1 S:33/42 BuildMutalisk
@6:10 Spawned: Overlord+1
@6:15 Spawned: Larva+1
@6:15 M:312 G:58 L:1 S:35/50 BuildDrone
@6:29 Spawned: Mutalisk+1
@6:29 Spawned: Mutalisk+1
@6:29 Spawned: Mutalisk+1
@6:29 Spawned: Mutalisk+1
@6:30 Spawned: Larva+1
@6:32 Spawned: Drone+1
@6:33 Spawned: Mutalisk+1
Satisfied.
Number of actions in build order: 58
---Final Output---
At time: 6:33
Minerals: 467 Gas: 127 Supply: 36/50
Drones: 24
Overlords: 6
Queens: 1
Mutalisks: 5
Lairs: 1
Gas Extractors: 2
Spawning Pools: 1
Spire: 1
------------------
Mon Oct 25 22:15:19 CDT 2010: 348588.0618193578

Skrag United States. October 26 2010 14:06. Posts 643

Profile #

It did find an order for 6:30 for 5 mutas after 300k games played.

+ Show Spoiler +

@0:00 M:50 G:0 L:3 S:6/10 BuildDrone
@0:13 M:51 G:0 L:2 S

/10 BuildDrone
@0:15 Spawned: Larva+1
@0:17 Spawned: Drone+1
@0:24 M:52 G:0 L:2 S:8/10 BuildDrone
@0:30 Spawned: Drone+1
@0:30 Spawned: Larva+1
@0:34 M:54 G:0 L:2 S

/10 BuildDrone
@0:41 Spawned: Drone+1
@0:45 Spawned: Larva+1
@0:51 Spawned: Drone+1
@1:00 Spawned: Larva+1
@1:05 M:204 G:0 L:3 S:10/10 BuildSpawningPool
@1:09 M:30 G:0 L:3 S

/10 BuildExtractor
@1:17 M:50 G:0 L:3 S:8/10 BuildDrone
@1:26 M:50 G:0 L:2 S

/10 BuildDrone
@1:32 Spawned: Larva+1
@1:34 Spawned: Drone+1
@1:39 Spawned: Extractor+1
@1:43 Spawned: Drone+1
@1:43 M:101 G:0 L:2 S:10/10 BuildOverlord
@1:43 M:1 G:0 L:1 S:10/10 MineGas
@1:45 Mining: +1 on gas
@1:47 Spawned: Larva+1
@1:47 M:26 G:2 L:2 S:10/10 BuildExtractor
@1:47 M:1 G:2 L:2 S

/10 MineGas
@1:49 Mining: +1 on gas
@1:57 M:50 G:15 L:2 S

/10 BuildDrone
@2:02 Spawned: Larva+1
@2:08 Spawned: Overlord+1
@2:08 M:55 G:30 L:2 S:10/18 BuildDrone
@2:10 Spawned: Spawning Pool+1
@2:10 M:15 G:33 L:1 S:11/18 MineGas
@2:12 Mining: +1 on gas
@2:14 Spawned: Drone+1
@2:17 Spawned: Extractor+1
@2:17 Spawned: Larva+1
@2:18 M:51 G:48 L:2 S:11/18 BuildDrone
@2:18 M:1 G:48 L:1 S:12/18 MineGas
@2:20 Mining: +1 on gas
@2:25 Spawned: Drone+1
@2:29 M:50 G

8 L:1 S:12/18 BuildDrone
@2:32 Spawned: Larva+1
@2:35 Spawned: Drone+1
@2:46 Spawned: Drone+1
@2:47 Spawned: Larva+1
@2:56 M:154 G:154 L:2 S:13/18 BuildLair
@2:56 M:4 G:54 L:2 S:13/18 MineGas
@2:58 Mining: +1 on gas
@3:02 Spawned: Larva+1
@3:05 M:54 G:83 L:3 S:13/18 BuildDrone
@3:14 M:54 G:113 L:2 S:14/18 BuildDrone
@3:20 Spawned: Larva+1
@3:22 Spawned: Drone+1
@3:31 Spawned: Drone+1
@3:31 M:106 G:169 L:2 S:15/18 BuildOverlord
@3:35 Spawned: Larva+1
@3:50 Spawned: Larva+1
@3:56 Spawned: Overlord+1
@4:16 Spawned: Lairs+1
@4:16 M:324 G:317 L:3 S:15/26 BuildSpire
@4:16 M:124 G:117 L:3 S:14/26 MineGas
@4:18 Mining: +1 on gas
@4:21 M:152 G:136 L:3 S:14/26 BuildQueen
@5:11 Spawned: Queen+1
@5:56 Spawned: Spire+1
@5:56 Spawned: Larva+4
@5:56 M:534 G:497 L

S:16/26 BuildMutalisk
@5:56 M:434 G:397 L:6 S:18/26 BuildMutalisk
@5:56 M:334 G:297 L:5 S:20/26 BuildMutalisk
@5:56 M:234 G:197 L:4 S:22/26 MineMineral
@5:56 M:234 G:197 L:4 S:22/26 BuildMutalisk
@5:56 M:134 G

7 L:3 S:24/26 MineMineral
@5:57 M:140 G:100 L:3 S:24/26 BuildMutalisk
@5:58 Mining: +1 on mineral
@5:58 Mining: +1 on mineral
@5:58 M:47 G:3 L:2 S:26/26 MineMineral
@6:00 Mining: +1 on mineral
@6:05 M:101 G:17 L:2 S:26/26 BuildOverlord
@6:05 M:1 G:17 L:1 S:26/26 MineGas
@6:07 Mining: +1 on gas
@6:11 Spawned: Larva+1
@6:26 Spawned: Larva+1
@6:29 Spawned: Mutalisk+1
@6:29 Spawned: Mutalisk+1
@6:29 Spawned: Mutalisk+1
@6:29 Spawned: Mutalisk+1
@6:30 Spawned: Mutalisk+1
@6:30 Spawned: Overlord+1
Satisfied.
Number of actions in build order: 48
---Final Output---
At time: 6:30
Minerals: 179 Gas: 87 Supply: 26/34
Drones: 14
Overlords: 4
Queens: 1
Mutalisks: 5
Lairs: 1
Gas Extractors: 2
Spawning Pools: 1
Spire: 1
------------------
Mon Oct 25 21:15:13 MDT 2010: 353280.0330532543

However, when I try to actually execute this order, however, after many attempts, I could only get it down to 6:40 (from what I'm hearing, 10 seconds isn't particularly out of line given all the things that it doesn't handle "real" timings for). With some slight optimization, but still doing 10 pool (which is completely counterintuitive to anybody zerg, who knows that the best way to get 100 gas when the pool finishes is by building the extractor first), I was able to get it down to 6:35, and the mineral+gas counts were *right* on the money (500/500 at the exact time the spire and queen larvae spawn finished), so I seriously doubt it's going to be possible to get any lower than that.

However, using 12pool 11 gas, I was able to get down as low as 6:30.

So there is still something very funky.

The fact that it found 13pool 12gas is encouraging, though, and it looks like it might be able to hit 6:29 with that, by getting the 5th muta at the same time as the first 4, but I guarantee you won't actually be able to execute that in-game in 6:29.

"Just go *@#$ing kill him!" -- Day[9] "Thanks for being a jackass though! Enjoy your time on the forums!" - Artosis