[D]ZvT post 1.1.2 - Page 2
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Hider
Denmark9236 Posts
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k4ne
Austria34 Posts
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bebe01
Korea (South)512 Posts
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
On October 15 2010 06:09 MrCon wrote: Helion defense will be really easier, now zerg doesn't have to scout, he just can make 4 or 5 roaches blind and be harass proof as boukers rushes and reapers will be non existant post 1.1.2 Maybe, maybe not. If 4/5 early roaches really is a safe, core build for Zerg, that's a good thing. Zerg badly needed a bit of stability in its early game - something to fall back upon if scouting is denied. Safe doesn't imply optimal though. Four or five roaches aren't free: that's a lair right there, or a hatchery, or ling speed, or an evo chamber and an upgrade, or several of the ever-popular drones. So at high levels of play, the motivation is there to cut those roaches and rely upon scouting and/or mind games to get an economic edge - which in turn provides the opportunity for masterful denial/evasion of scouting or star-sense early play on the part of his opponent. I like the idea of reaper rape being a rare, unexpected and devastating curve-ball. When I think back to the VoDs of Idra either losing or clinging on by the skin of his teeth versus an avalanche of early reapers, that didn't look like it should be the norm. It didn't look like something Zerg should have to expect to endure in every game. It looked monstrous and outlandish, something that might work once and put him on the back foot mentally for the rest of a BoX, as opposed to what it was: a free chance for Terran to put the game beyond Zerg's reach in the first few minutes, with little risk attached because the only economical response Zerg had was countered very strongly by the exact unit Terran had already set himself up to mass next. | ||
Soulish
Canada1403 Posts
On October 15 2010 05:49 RQShatter wrote: Speed will always be important because flanking and counterattacking are so important as zerg. User was warned for this post User was temp banned for this post. what? | ||
Mindspider
91 Posts
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
Nope. Game 1, I end up losing a more expensive army of medivacs/marauder/marine/thor to mass roaches. Game 2, I tried an aggressive drop (basically similar to Polt's TvP except with medivacs instead of banshees). He held off the drop, trading armies with me, and then proceeded to destroy me with roaches. Game 3 I try to thor drop on LT. Doesn't work anymore, the roach range allows you to keep thors off your hatch, with extra time from the hatch HP buff. Game 4 I'm getting pissed and I decide to just FE on the stupid jungle map. I do an incredibly economically greedy fast expand, pumping literally pure marauders and medivacs. By the time we fight at 13 minutes, I have 61 workers to his 50, and my army consists of: 31 marauders (3100m, 775g) 5 marines (250 m) 6 medivacs (600, 600) cost = 3950m, 1375g and his army: 47 roaches cost = 3235m 1175g And I lose the fight. I hop on ladder and play against the zerg player Just, who tries out roaches for what I think is the first time. I get smashed by baneling/roach and some mutas. His response is "wow, these feel broken, these are going to get patched". Roaches are INCREDIBLY good now. They are absolutely shockingly powerful in ZvT and I have absolutely no idea how to beat them. Opening hellions is now a build order loss to a 5 roach rush and reapers do absolutely nothing. The only way I can apply pressure is with medivac drops and roaches are so good now that they're shutting them down. And lategame is already in Z's favor. | ||
Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
How is it even close?? | ||
Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
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Jzerg
84 Posts
I don't get it either... | ||
iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
On October 15 2010 09:55 Umpteen wrote: @iEchoic: Did you try tanks in the mix at all? They should still be pretty damn devastating. I don't like to do tanks because they're terrible now if your opponent has any zerglings, because zerglings that take 2 shots just cause you to splash all your own units to death (and many Zs are opening with armor, as MasterAsia did to me). I can never be 100% sure my opponent is going to make exclusively roaches. I did try unsieged tanks added in but they didn't seem to help much. On October 15 2010 09:55 Yaotzin wrote: Kinda confused how you can lose that..(stimmed) Marauders have 20DPS, Roaches have erm 8. You can even kite them.. How is it even close?? I have no idea, I don't get it. It may be the marauder natural overkill, as they tend to overkill a lot. It may also be the fact that roaches seem to clump more and are more dense so more can get in range. Trust me, I'm confused too. But specs were watching and they were just as confused. Edit: keep in mind roaches have more HP and natural 1 armor. He was ahead of me in upgrades in the game, but we were both 2x pumping upgrades, and zerg always gets a headstart because ebays are more expensive than evo chambers. I got relatively early 2x ebay so there's nothing I can really do about that. My army was significantly more expensive anyway. I don't want to upload 5 replays and I don't even know if I still have them all, but I'll see if there's any parts I want to highlight and post up. | ||
squintz
Canada217 Posts
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
Maybe Terran needs to adjust and figure some things out. The other 2 races have been scrambling to do that to try and beat T's for ages :/ | ||
squintz
Canada217 Posts
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Skeyser
Canada219 Posts
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On October 15 2010 10:02 squintz wrote: @iEchoic yeah man roaches are pretty bullshit. especially when you get caught with too many marauders into a muta or ling transition. Sounds like the life of every Zerg and Toss around.. I don't mean that as a "haha Terran sucka" thing, but Terran is so used to dictating play in their matchups, and maybe that's changed and they need to adjust to that. Or maybe roaches are broken. Struggling to see how though, going from blah to uber with 1 range | ||
iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
On October 15 2010 10:05 Yaotzin wrote: Or maybe roaches are broken. Struggling to see how though, going from blah to uber with 1 range As has been said on a million threads, one range is HUGE because that's the difference between hellions being able to kite roaches and not being able to kite roaches. That +1 range destroyed the hellion opening. +1 range actually significantly increases the DPS of a roach ball as well because it increases the amount of units attacking at any given time. You can model the maximum dps of a ball as number of units in (pi * range ^ 2) * dps. Increase the range and the dps increases exponentially. | ||
Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On October 15 2010 10:07 iEchoic wrote: As has been said on a million threads, one range is HUGE because that's the difference between hellions being able to kite roaches and not being able to kite roaches. That +1 range destroyed the hellion opening. Sorry yah I agree on that, I meant the whole "beating marauders" thing. +1 range actually significantly increases the DPS of a roach ball as well because it increases the amount of units attacking at any given time. You can model the maximum dps of a ball as number of units in (pi * range ^ 2) * dps. Increase the range and the dps increases exponentially. Yeah, just that roaches seemed pretty shitty even when they were all attacking the thors or whatever. | ||
iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
Here's the replay. Skip to 13:10 to see the battle. Advantages I had: - Better positioning (he's coming up a ramp, I also use CC defensively to reduce area he can hit of my army) - Almost 1000 resource advantage on his army (count the actual units, don't look at army tab because he has stuff around his base counting towards that) - massed "hard counters" (or not?) Advantages he had: - Upgrades I felt like I microed pretty well. I kited reasonably well, I used the CC to my advantage backing up into it to keep him off of me. Now, someone is going to come in here and say he won because of upgrades. This isn't true. First of all, I had a more expensive army. Second of all, I have hard counters to his units. Third of all, he absolutely demolished me and it wasn't even close. There is no way that getting upgrades faster allows you to absolutely wreck a more expensive army of hard-counters. And most importantly, fourth of all, I still got relatively fast 2x ebays and he got very fast evo chambers, and he can also corrupt my ebays and I can't do shit about his. Because it's now nearly impossible to pressure zerg, there's not much I could have done about it. Kind of out of my control. Even in the other games I played him when he didn't go fast upgrades I still lost just as bad. He acknowledged that pre-patch I would have won that battle easily. I think there's no doubt now the roach change made a big impact. | ||
Hati
France15 Posts
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