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| nalgene Canada. October 25 2010 18:32. Posts 2145 | Profile # |
| heusa said something about "wtf is that bullshit" Last edit: 2010-10-25 21:44:23 |
| | Year 2500 Greater Israel ( Bahrain, Cyprus, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Oman, Gaza Strip, West Bank, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, United Arab Emirates, Yemen ) |
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| Victim United States. October 25 2010 18:40. Posts 188 | Profile # |
I really doubt the logic that army trades hurt zerg's drone production. It seems like after each trade, there's a window for droning or expanding when your army should be small enough that zerg can get away with delaying unit production to squeeze out more economy. Especially since banelings can be so effective against marines.
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| PanzerKing United States. October 25 2010 18:43. Posts 445 | Profile # |
| Tried it, wanted to like it, got absolutely demolished by infestors. Fielding large numbers of medvacs isn't possible with this strat, but you can't survive against even a small number of infestors without them - it's a serious catch-22 =( I'll watch your reps and see if you're doing something that I wasn't... |
| | http://tkrmx.blogspot.com/ |
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 tournamentnow Australia. October 25 2010 18:47. Posts 111 | Profile # |
| infestors are like super early defilers with plague already researched. fail so hard. |
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| frantic.cactus New Zealand. October 25 2010 19:53. Posts 163 | Profile # |
Love it. Will be my standard TvZ now!
Hellion/marauder timing attack to punish a early expo really transitions well into this.
And to the haters, just because this STRATEGY may require some micro for it to work does not mean it is 'fail'.
damn.
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| Reki Philippines. October 25 2010 20:34. Posts 67 | Profile # |
| After watching 5 replays I just realized something. The # of scvs was always either = or > than the # of drones. How the fuck is this happening!?! |
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| Demetrious United States. October 25 2010 20:51. Posts 9 | Profile # |
On October 25 2010 20:34 Reki wrote:
After watching 5 replays I just realized something. The # of scvs was always either = or > than the # of drones. How the fuck is this happening!?!
Pretty sure attrition comes into play here as the Zerg is forced to constantly produce army units as opposed to power droning due to the constant stream of Terran infantry and expansion harassment. The fact that the Raven produces disposable units seems to create a buffer that really narrows the window of opportunity for power droning into the mid-game.
Really looking forward to trying this. The early expansion possibility has me drooling.
*edit: Not to mention that it exclusively involves my 2 favorite Terran units. Last edit: 2010-10-25 20:54:43 |
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| slith Germany. October 25 2010 21:00. Posts 165 | Profile # |
Just a quick note as a Zerg player playing Terran now and then:
Fighting with Infestors against mass Ravens utilizing HSM & Turrets just a bit efficient is definitly not cost effective for Zerg, even if you are able to shoot a few Ravens down with infested Marines you will lose many Infestors in the process. Zergs main problem is the constant Larvae requirement for many many ling/bling to stop your Marines. Roaches (&+Hydras) are no option to counter upgraded Marines + HSM, as a switch to Banshees is totally crushing you if you go massive Roaches and HSM + 3/3 Marines decimates your Hydra count quite well, especially off creep (and creep will be rare with so many Ravens around). Keep in mind Roach/Hydra is a very expensive unit composition. Mutalisk is also not an viable option, obviously because of the many Marines around and one well placed HSM makes you lose the game.
Only thing to counter that for Zerg would be Muta/Broodlord + a composition of Roaches and Ling/Bling. But it's hard teching to Broodlords with that much Autoturrets at your mineral fields and those Marines you have to spend all your Larvae on. And every fight you win means you just set him back a few inches into the next wall of upgraded Bunkers and Autoturrets.
As Terran, this is my new default style of playing vs Zerg (although I like building a 2:1 mix Raven/Banshee + a few Battlecruisers now and then or getting some Ghosts + many many Nukes in my ground mix). As it pressures the Zerg into using up all of his resources - Minerals, Gas, Larvae and Creep. Fight Zerg with Zerg tactics 
With a few Banshees I imagine this could be very problematic to Protoss too. But I don't have much experience with TvP.Last edit: 2010-10-25 21:16:18 |
| | When in doubt, empty your magazine. |
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| Antisocialmunky United States. October 25 2010 22:18. Posts 5065 | Profile Blog # |
Wow, thanks for all the encouragement guys :D. Let me answer a few questions and edit the OP.
On October 25 2010 14:15 TheAntZ wrote:Your analysis of why the build works and your description of everything is amazing. Awesome read, thank you!  edit: your name means book in russian, is that deliberate? 
Nah, that's KME's account. I did most of the theory crafting and haven't had a chance to play that much. Plus he seems to be more aggressive. I usually poke and them go for a big 2 base push.
On October 25 2010 14:49 n3mo wrote:
good read, and i'd love to bring SK terran back =]
question - do you combine this with drop play too?
btw, don't think roach hydra would do much - if you see that you can easily swap out for extra marauders, and marines/HSM/PDD should do fine against hydras if you position nicely. actually, you might even be able to flank the slower hydras and force them to run from a HSM into a marine ball.
Yes, infact the first thing I do when I get a SP + tech lab is build a medivac while researching raven energy. Not sure if this is the best idea but I go for mass auto turrets. I think you can do drop play quite well in this build. However, due to the low number of zerg bases, I think you can go without it.
On October 25 2010 15:05 aNx wrote:
Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 14:34 link0 wrote:
The problem of this build is roach/hydra.
Actually I have been using this build with pretty decent success against roach hydra. The reason is with that many ravens you can just throw down 5-6 PDDs (roaches have TWO SECOND attack which means that the point defence drones stop everything they throw at you) and so your marines literally do not take hits, and since marine dps is so potent they can just rip through huge amounts of roach hydra without getting taking many hits at all.
Quite true, KME's Jungle Basin game I believe had the zerg cycling through 2-3 different army comps and this was the last one. I do find this one of the harder comps to deal with because Hydras can shoot up. You need good reaction time for putting down the PDD's with your ravens. I haven't yet seen a pure Roach/Hydra mix like Idra from the beta so I can't comment on holding off MASS MASS roach hydra. However, if they do, its pretty much do or die for Zerg. If they can't secure their third, they definitely won't be able to keep it up. Also note that this army is immobile without creep so you can take your bases in relative safety compared to muta builds.
On October 25 2010 15:33 shakenbake wrote:
not gonna lie, was extremely skeptical about this strategy because i just assumed bane lings absolutely rape marines. In the reps u lost quite a bit of marines but u made great use the the auto turret and especially HSM. Very nice play. I also like that this isn't the typical terran play of gimmicky harass that hasn't worked since 1.1.2 making this a much needed change-up to the TvZ matchup. edit : also lol at the zerg tears from the last reps against hasua or whatever.
Thank KME for the reps. Yeah, banelings aren't too bad. Every baneling is a roach that Z can't build and 4 is a muta they can't build. I usually try to split my army into 3 pieces to deal with it. You can HSM a baneling army or drop a turret to bait it. Other options include macroing your butt off and just throwing men at zerg until he's out of banelings.
On October 25 2010 15:50 KiLL_ORdeR wrote:
is there a reason why you get combat shield first? just from briefly watching the first two reps, it seems as if you got stim first, and pushed as combat shields are finishing (possibly with a medivac, although i don't know) you could put a lot of hurt on a 14 hatching zerg who is light on defense like that, plus you could actually micro against the lings.
I personally usually get Combat Shield first. However, stim is good to sue against banelings. I was told by KME that he went shield first for his initial push since those are his reps. Either one is good really. But my rationale is that you can't really afford to use a lot of stim without the medivacs.
On October 25 2010 16:13 drdovetalk wrote:
Mass ravens are truly difficult to deal with. But if I were to theory-craft a little, the trick (as Zerg) is to understand that Ravens do not have infinite energy. Yes they can build a wall of 150hp high dps auto-turrets that stop a push in its tracks. Yes they can put up 3 PDDs to nullify swarms of corrupters, mutas, queens and hydras. Yes they can use HSM to disperse flocks of mutablings.
But they can't do all that at once. HSM = 125 energy. PDD = 100 energy. Auto turret = 50 energy.
A raven has 200 energy max, and likely a squad of ravens are not all at full energy if a push is done once say... the 4th raven is completed.
Forcing a PDD means 2 less turrets. Forcing a HSM means no PDD and only 1 turret. Forcing tons of turrets means no PDD and no HSM.
What can you do to force raven energy use? Probably the same way Muta harass force marines to stim. (i.e. once you see the stim go off, fly away and let the medivac drain their energy). This means engaging the ravens in the open. Engaging in the open means you cannot be on your base, because there is no way to retreat. Threaten hits on the marine/raven ball with ling/bling then run away as turrets fall and HSMs are launched. FG the ravens and run in the hydras, forcing PDDs and autoturrets, then pull back.
Edit: Oh, and get the armor upgrades, because turrets and marines deal dmg via small and rapid attacks. Which makes armor upgrades worth it.
Well you usually don't need that much raven energy. As long as you don't over do it before the point zerg starts to burn out. I actually don't find HSM all that useful outside of sniping units and PDD is very situational vs mutas and very easy to determine when to use vs a immobile hydra army. I personally just throw auto turrets down while I camp outside Z's bases. I do this so I can control where his mutas are. I think the correct response with mutas is that since they come out around when my push does, they need to attack my base and keep me from getting past the half way point on the map.
As for infestor/hydra, good luck getting enough of both those units to get it to work off 2 bases.
On October 25 2010 18:40 Victim wrote:
I really doubt the logic that army trades hurt zerg's drone production. It seems like after each trade, there's a window for droning or expanding when your army should be small enough that zerg can get away with delaying unit production to squeeze out more economy. Especially since banelings can be so effective against marines.
Well it depends on the map. For larger maps this is true, but I've experienced that if I start trading with 20-30 marines, I will have the same amount macroed up at my base to throw at Zerg.
BTW - If anyone wants to contribute with more Marine/Raven replays and other ideas, you are welcome to PM me or post in this thread. If anyone has any BW adaptations of builds especially a workable mech vs toss, PM me ;DLast edit: 2010-10-25 22:20:09 |
| [ﾟnﾟ] SSSSssssssSSsss ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Marine/Raven Guide:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163605 |
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| Noxie United States. October 25 2010 22:23. Posts 2175 | Profile Blog # |
Quality post for sure. I like you're builds... but I think that aggressive bling early game could just destroy this...
Maybe i would have to toy with it wrong. I am just not sure how safe this is from early pressure. |
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| Mehukannu Finland. October 25 2010 22:41. Posts 387 | Profile # |
If you don't plan on using factory to produce anything, you could use it to make reactors for barracs or even techlabs for starports if are feeling fancy.
This way you won't lose that much marine/raven production time while getting a addon for them. |
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| Antisocialmunky United States. October 25 2010 22:45. Posts 5065 | Profile Blog # |
On October 25 2010 22:23 n0xi3 wrote:
Quality post for sure. I like you're builds... but I think that aggressive bling early game could just destroy this...
Maybe i would have to toy with it wrong. I am just not sure how safe this is from early pressure.
Are you talking about a bust? If so, you can do my 2 Rax variant and wall with 2 Rax and your CC.
On October 25 2010 22:41 Mehukannu wrote:
If you don't plan on using factory to produce anything, you could use it to make reactors for barracs or even techlabs for starports if are feeling fancy.
This way you won't lose that much marine/raven production time while getting a addon for them.
Yeah, one thing I want to try is to get the timing on my rax research to be done when my SPs are built, that way if I build another tech lab on my factory, I can just swap both onto my ports.Last edit: 2010-10-25 22:47:00 |
| [ﾟnﾟ] SSSSssssssSSsss ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Marine/Raven Guide:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163605 |
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| ChickenLips October 25 2010 22:51. Posts 2913 | Profile Blog # |
| Yes yes, please play pure marine on the ground. I will just sling/bling/infestor and lol with great cost-efficiency through your army, one of the few compositions that allow me to do that. |
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| Antisocialmunky United States. October 25 2010 22:55. Posts 5065 | Profile Blog # |
On October 25 2010 22:51 ChickenLips wrote:
Yes yes, please play pure marine on the ground. I will just sling/bling/infestor and lol with great cost-efficiency through your army, one of the few compositions that allow me to do that.
Like I said, sling and bling without creep is the easiest comp to beat ^_^. I dunno, maybe if you never get mutas, you can try and bulldoze your way into victory.Last edit: 2010-10-25 22:56:02 |
| [ﾟnﾟ] SSSSssssssSSsss ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Marine/Raven Guide:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163605 |
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| ChickenLips October 25 2010 23:04. Posts 2913 | Profile Blog # |
On October 25 2010 22:55 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 22:51 ChickenLips wrote:
Yes yes, please play pure marine on the ground. I will just sling/bling/infestor and lol with great cost-efficiency through your army, one of the few compositions that allow me to do that.
Like I said, sling and bling without creep is the easiest comp to beat ^_^. I dunno, maybe if you never get mutas, you can try and bulldoze your way into victory.
Fungal range > marine range. I put 2 fungal on the marines that are in the back, preferably in a tight spot. Then I run in with speed banelings. Your entire army is gone while I run into your economy. gg.
Not viable. I've never ever ever ever seen a good TvZ where T was able to win with bio while remaining cost-effective (i.e. no far ahead of Z) |
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| n3mo United States. October 25 2010 23:21. Posts 297 | Profile # |
| oh, another question: have you tried using double ebay for upgrades? since you want 3/3 marines and the raven upgrades from the ebay, it might be useful, although im not sure 2 base would have the gas to support that continuously researching. |
| | My hatred for [banelings] is way greater than my compassion |
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| BKSandland Denmark. October 25 2010 23:25. Posts 75 | Profile # |
nice build! will definitely try this out, and use at as my standard TvZ.
but.. can you post some replays of you playing?
I would really like to see how you play this type of play. |
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| Antisocialmunky United States. October 25 2010 23:26. Posts 5065 | Profile Blog # |
On October 25 2010 23:21 n3mo wrote:
oh, another question: have you tried using double ebay for upgrades? since you want 3/3 marines and the raven upgrades from the ebay, it might be useful, although im not sure 2 base would have the gas to support that continuously researching.
You can run through about 2 upgrades before raven come up. These should be atleast one of the infantry ups. I don't really know if you really need to double upgrade early. You can probably throw down your armory and another e-bay when you start setting your third up. On the subject of upgrades, you can get ship plating for your ravens and go into BC mode later for so kicks if you so desire. |
| [ﾟnﾟ] SSSSssssssSSsss ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Marine/Raven Guide:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163605 |
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| kme Serbia. October 25 2010 23:27. Posts 176 | Profile # |
On October 25 2010 22:18 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 14:15 TheAntZ wrote:Your analysis of why the build works and your description of everything is amazing. Awesome read, thank you! edit: your name means book in russian, is that deliberate?
Nah, that's KME's account. I did most of the theory crafting and haven't had a chance to play that much. Plus he seems to be more aggressive. I usually poke and them go for a big 2 base push.
In serbian language knjiga also means book and yes that's My acc .
On October 25 2010 23:04 ChickenLips wrote:
Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 22:55 Antisocialmunky wrote:
On October 25 2010 22:51 ChickenLips wrote:
Yes yes, please play pure marine on the ground. I will just sling/bling/infestor and lol with great cost-efficiency through your army, one of the few compositions that allow me to do that.
Like I said, sling and bling without creep is the easiest comp to beat ^_^. I dunno, maybe if you never get mutas, you can try and bulldoze your way into victory.
Fungal range > marine range. I put 2 fungal on the marines that are in the back, preferably in a tight spot. Then I run in with speed banelings. Your entire army is gone while I run into your economy. gg. Not viable. I've never ever ever ever seen a good TvZ where T was able to win with bio while remaining cost-effective (i.e. no far ahead of Z)
Each infestor costs 150 gas, that is the gas price of 6 banelings. You assume that marines will sit there waiting for you to fungal them and you also forgot about ravens. There are micro possibilities on both sides to reduce/optimize the damage. No one said that this strategy beats zerg 100% but you can watch the reps and see. I think in almost all games zergs use infestors and even manage to do heavy damage but in the end there were just too many marines :D.Last edit: 2010-10-25 23:29:45 |
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| Bull-Demon United States. October 25 2010 23:42. Posts 582 | Profile # |
| Excellent post. We need more of this and less whining. |
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