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| Antisocialmunky United States. October 25 2010 13:56. Posts 5074 | Profile Blog # |
POST REPS IF YOU HAVE PROBLEMS
Attention all Terrans: If you are tired of MMM into more MMM or mech into lose everything to ultralisks, you might want to look into this style of play.
I'm adding some background info for fun/SCII noobs from WOW. If my writing is as bad as I think it is, skip down 3 bold headings.
Updates
Nov/14/2010
Started working on the micro and tricks sections.
Nov/12/2010
Yeah for infixed timestamps. KME rep pak #3. Mid-diamond Skatbone reps as well.
Nov/08/2010
Added New FAQ Section. Check it out because it contains up to date info on how to react and how to transition.
Nov/06/2010
Added reps generously provided by MadisonStreet.
Nov/01/2010
Cleaned up the playing against certain strategies section to be more concrete.
Disorganized Old Updates
+ Show Spoiler +EDIT: Unsurprisingly, someone else also has a guide if you are curious  http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=148558EDIT: Added 3 Replays, made more notes about KME's opening. EDIT: For those wondering how well this works at the top of ladder, PokeBunny posted a pack of 7 reps: http://www.mediafire.com/?cho7regecq8wp5yEDIT: Hmmm, seems like there should be an adaptation for the Z that stays on 2 hatch and tries to murder you horribly. I only have response to expansion to 3 base. :[ EDIT: Cleaned up the build section and added variation and adaptation sections. EDIT: More Clean up EDIT: Note to self: Make Baneling Micro Guide...
FAQ and Common Misconceptions(Decision Making and Transitions)
+ Show Spoiler +General Questions+ Show Spoiler +
What am I doing wrong? I keep dying.
Check your replay for:
1) Am I macroing all the time?
2) Am I being correctly aggressive? (see Below)
Post rep if you can't figure it out.
How does Marine/Raven play vs Marine/Tank and Marine/Medivac?
While all three styles are basic transitions from pure marine or other marine heavy styles, there is one basic important difference. Marine/Tank requires tanks to cover Marines form banelings and infestors and Marines to cover Tanks from air and sustained assault. Marine/Medivac relies on Medivacs to augment the power of highly upgraded Marines by increasing effective health and mobility. Both these styles emphasize the preservation of Marines. Marine/Raven asks that you spend your Marines to inflict a war of attrition on the zerg while massing a critical mass of ravens to destroy everything late game. Survival of each marine army is secondary to the massing and protection of the Ravens.
That being said, each style is good against certain types of play. Marine/Tank is good simultaneously attacking and defending, Marine/Medivac is good for abusing the high base count of later game zerg. Marine/Raven is good for both of the above once your Ravens snow ball into something unstoppable with every Raven that you add to your fleet and every engagement where you kill parts of zerg's army and not lose ravens.
When should Marine/Raven be employed vs Marine/Tank and Marine/Medivac
Marine/Raven and Marine/Medivac should be regarded as hard counters to a fast third. Zerg cannot apply much counter pressure if he or she goes for a fast third so you can tech straight to Ravens or medivacs while using primarily marines to control the map and take down the third. Marine/Raven is also more powerful vs Muta heavy combinations compared to Medivacs as HSM is quite a deterrent and a damage dealer. Marine/Tank is very powerful vs slower expanding Zergs that stay on two base instead of FE. Marine/Medivac is good vs a Zerg who manages to defend Terran's mid-game pushes and successfully expands to three or four bases as the bases are spread out.
It is also quite easily to transition from Marine/Tank and Marine/Medivac to a late game Marine/Raven. In fact, except in the case of a fast third or mass muta, Marine/Raven should be considered a late game composition and a transition out of Marine/Tank or Marine/Medivac.
Since you say Marine/Raven is a late game composition, how do you transition into it?
The Marine + X builds all have the same core, it is just a matter of building the correct facilities with the correct add-ons. However more frequently, you can just add additional units into you existing mix instead such as:
-Putting a tech lab on your factory to build tanks.
-Build Medivacs with your first starport.
-Mass Ravens with your second starport.
The advantageous of doing this is pretty obvious - flexibility and full use of all production structures. The disadvantage is that you won't be able to mass any particular unit as quickly. Generally speaking, if you shoot for a MR late game, then you will probably want to get both Tanks and Medivacs before Ravens as Zergs adapt to Marine + X builds and MR.
I don't know how to counter specific builds since Zerg is so dynamic. This is why my adaptation sections are really vague. I just know what to do when I see certain things so I will represent it in this way. + Show Spoiler +
No Second Base
Build a Bunker up immediately and don't forget the back door. If you must, morph a PFort in your natural.
Fast Third
Aggressive MR. Use the trading strategy I outlined. Apply constant pressure and tech to Ravens since this style usually comes with Mutas to control space and force you to defend your base.
Mass Muta off 2 Base
Defensive MR. Use the trading strategy I outlined except mass more units before moving out each wave. DO NOT WAIT UNTIL 200/200. Somewhere over 100 is enough or until all your 2 base production structure are up. You must wait because both Ravens and Marines get exponentially more powerful and you must be able to have enough Marines to withdraw your Ravens. Do not wait until 200/200 or Zerg can stash larva and rebuild faster than you when recovering from a 200/200 battle(because you can't stock pile building capacity at 200/200). Turret slow push is a good strategy for forcing an engagement against a 2 basing Zerg with Mass Muta. Your ground army will beat his if he tries to get you to run to your base with his Muta. HSM is good for both sniping banelings and forcing Mutas away.
2 Base, Mass Ground
Go Marine/Tank either off one or in extreme cases 2 factories. Slow push across the map and set up a contain to force an engagement on your terms. Be wary of a counter. You can also use tanks to take a third to force him to expo or come to you. Then transition into Marine/Medivac/Raven off 3 bases to drop Zerg's bases and get your late game Raven fleet up.
2 Base, Fast Infestor
Marine/Tank or theoretically Banshees will work to snipe infestors.
Zerg Takes Third with Large Army
Transition to Marine/Medivac or Marine/Raven if you are in Marine/Tank to abuse mobility. Tanks will not be able to slow push as well against a 3 Base Zerg unless the map is favorable for it (too many directions for possible attacks). Don't forget to take a third yourself.
-PDD is a defensive spell. Use to protect Ravens when ambushed by Muta or Hydra. In fact PDD is quite good vs Hydra since you will almost always meet them when attacking a third base if Zerg elected for hydras. PDD buys you time to put down turrets, HSM, or run away.
-HSM is good for sniping. It is also good when your ravens have high energy and may very well die. HSM is also good since it requires the fewest clicks to spend all your energy.
-Turrets are good for slow push, controlling space, and substituting for drops (when you have enough Ravens).
+Attack when Zerg is greedy or you have an army/production advantage. Zerg can get bases up and running much faster than you so if you see Zerg being greedy or taking an extra base, it is a good time to attack.
+Turtle when Zerg throws units at you off an even number of bases and does not expo. Move out when your production capabilites are maxed.
+Be aggressive on the edge of creep. It is easy to pick off creep turmors and important to do so. You may be able to draw zerg into a fight on unfavorable terrain.
When should the KME build be done vs when the 2 Rax FE should be done?
2 Rax FE can apply a stream of continuous pressure very early on as it hits in the window right when the natural gets put up and zerg has no units. The disadvantage is that 2 Rax FE gives you forces you to remain with unupgraded marines due to later refineries. It is also easy to get overly aggressive because zerg can reach full production on his main before you and just kill you. KME's build forgoes hyper aggressive early pressure for a series for a larger timing attack after the natural expo completes with atleast combat shield and +1. This occurs about when both your bases being to reach full production. You can work Stim in also by getting a second rax before E-Bay and researching both Stim, CS, and +1. It really depends on your play style.
Introduction
+ Show Spoiler +Long long ago in a time almost forgotten by people with sub 200 post counts - a time when scourge roamed the skies and cracklings weren't suffering the consequences of substance dependence, a not-so-famous-anymore-Terran named Soul Key figured out that Science Vessels were completely imba and abused the hell out of them. Not since the advent of dropship use had the swarm be so badly curb-stomped ... in the nuts ... with radioactive green fire. Clouds of Terran Science Vessels floated about with impunity doling out radioactive green death upon anything that sparked their wrath. And sometimes they would throw out a defense matrix when they were feeling creative. ![[image loading]](http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/3059/eraserp.jpg) Or more irradiates insteadEver since Soul Key invented the SK Terran style of play, countless Terrans have abused the guaranteed death sentence of the irradiate to kill all Zerg's expensive endgame units, disperse muta clouds, and deal with lurkers and swarm that couldn't be HURT BY ANYTHING ELSE. Being the totally balanced game that Brood War is/was Zerg figured out counters and Terrans figured out other styles of play. However, SK Terran remains one of the most used styles in modern TvZ (except you make tanks and turtle in the corner when you can't kill the zerg, Flash and Sea).
SK Terran Style
+ Show Spoiler +SK Terran is a mid-to late game style that emphasizes the production of a massive amount of marines and medics in the mid-game that is later supplemented by a large 'cloud' of science vessels (usually more than 2 less than 10) as the game progresses. Usually games that result in SK Terran begin with a fast expand into two base play. There are several reasons for why SK Terran has been such a successful style: - M&M with stim is ridiculously cost effective, mobile, and easy to produce. Terran can quite easily stay ahead of the zerg in food. - Because it relies on mineral heavy units to hold down the midgame, you end up with a massive stockpile of gas for vessels which require little minerals and lots of gas. - The combination complements itself because M&M kill everything not under dark swarm while vessels can kill everything else. M&M protect the vessels while the vessels snipe units that give M&M a hard time. - All of zerg's scary units that are not lings require gas, if zerg over commits gas heavy units vs Terran, zerg cannot exploit the upper end of the tech tree effectively because it is so gas heavy. The better the Terran trades minerals for gas, the less likely zerg can effectively counter SK Terran because lings and sunkens by themselves don't do very well against a ball of M&M that becomes exponentially more powerful the more M&M there is. It's also quite entertaining to watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TtWegXOOGg
Remember when Flash vs Jaedong didn't happen every 4 months? Wouldn't it be nice if Terran could do the same thing in SCII?
Marine/Raven Opening Builds
+ Show Spoiler +So the pretty much the first thing I did after I got decent at SCII was to figure out a way to not play every match up with MMM. Not that MMM is particularly bad but it is really boring to play. You have one big unit ball with some floaty medics that A-Moves and wins against stuff. To avoid this, I first tried Thor/Hellion TLO style mech. That was okay but ridiculously immobile due to Thor speed and has problems on certain maps. So instead of trying out stuff from the GSL, I tried to replicate BW builds in SCII. So with the help of KME who came up with some nice openings and timings as well as did a lot of play testing, here is the Marine Raven style of play. Basic Opening Builds: Aggressive FE by KME+ Show Spoiler +
- 10 Depot
- 12 Rax
- 13 Gas - Pull guys off after 50 gas.
- 15 Orbital
- 1 Marine, Reactor
- Continually produce marines
- 2nd depot
- 2nd CC at 400 min - You can try getting this before depot, be mindful of rush distances.
* 5 Marine Soft Poke, run to his base and run back, kill some xelnaga lings or get an ovie if possible
- 2nd Barracks, put guys back in gas, get tech lab - Start researching combat shield.
- Ebay - Start getting infantry weapons
* 16-20ish Marine Scary Poke, move out right before upgrades finish. It is 16 if you lose your first marines and 20 if you didn't.
- 3rd and 4th Rax - Keep Researching whatever infantry/turret ups you can so you gas doesn't go nuts.
- Factory + 2nd Gas
- Get Third Gas
- Get 2 Star Ports. Build Tech Lab on Fact, swap Tech Lab to SP and the Tech Lab on Rax if stim is done. Start building ravens and medivacs(if you want to). Research Raven Energy and HSM first.
- Get Fourth Gas
* Move out with 30+ marines and first Raven, attack Zerg's third.
+ You can either build a mass of Barracks with your excess minerals or reactors. I personally like slamming down 5 additional barracks to wall off part of my natural and then expo to a third while shutting down zerg's third.
This build aims at producing lots of fully upgraded marines. I think this is the build you should try to go for ideally. It is very powerful. You have a very good timing attack with around 20 marines that will catch some Zergs off guard. Depending on how early you scout, you should throw down a bunker if you see no second base. See Below.
A single hatch with no other intel means Zerg is going to probably go for a semi-all-in with roaches or maybe some sort of bling bust. Remember that the more intel you get, the better you can prepare your response so scout well. You may or may not want to cancel your reactor. I would prefer just finishing it. You should be able to get about 5 marines out by the the zerg attack hits. While this sounds somewhat dire to have a few marines vs atleast the same number of Roaches or masses of speedlings, its not that bad. To prepare for either, it is advisable to wall using multiple layers of buildings and have at least one bunker on top of your ramp with some SCVs to mass repair. The various types of RRs will probably hit between when your Expo CC is 1/2 way done and when you morph an OC/float out. Likewise, a BB will come in a similar timing window. ![[image loading]](http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/4166/mistimedrr.jpg) Beware of offbeat timings because Zerg doesn't have the build downAfter Zerg Attacks, you are now in one of several situations: 1) You either died which I can't really help you with. 2) Zerg busted (burst) through your wall but somehow you survived with heavy losses. 3) Zerg tried to bust and did moderate damage to you. You lost some buildings/units/scvs but you manage to hold. 4) Zerg bust failed completely. 5) Zerg saw you were prepared and is camping in your natural. For case 2 there is a good possibility of a follow up attack. Prepare the best you can given your circumstances. These situations are highly dependent on your experience and the map so it would be hard to give specific advice. If you do manage to hold on, you will probably be behind and will need to resort to some sort of harass via drops or banshees. Remember that you can call down mules in your main and build extra SCVs with your CC if it is still alive. For case 3 Zerg better zergs may elect to expo because they did enough damage to you to put you back abit. You will need to scout/scan to see if zerg is planning a follow up. In the case of an expo, you can probably float your expo CC out if it is alive still. If you continue with this build, you will be producing from 5 Rax equivalent so a counter attack is possible if Zerg traded his army and expoed. For case 4, Zerg will either suicide vainly to win or Expo. Just expo and don't lose your advantage in a silly way. If you killed many units, your first big push will likely end the game. For case 5, you can typically push out with your army after a little bit and take your natural. Because Zerg invested in a large ground army, a few banshees may be useful to have instead of pure ravens may be a good choice.
Zerg's second base will kick in before you can your non-stop marine spamming machine going. This can be dangerous as you may not expect it and your 'scary' poke can be wiped out with Zerg still having enough units to counter. One solution to this is getting several siege tanks before putting down your dual Starports. This is listed below in the variation section.
Listed With Build Variation:Double Ebay + Upgrades+ Show Spoiler +
Used in Pokebunny's reps. There is some excess gas build up that occurs before your SPs get down. You can take advantage of this by throwing down a second Ebay after you get out to 4 Rax. The only problem is that you do end up using slightly more gas than your can produce off two base so you may have to make a round of medivacs if you are low on gas.
Used in KME's 2nd rep pack. Instead of immediately going 2 port ravens, get a tech lab on your factory and get siege and tanks. This takes advantage of the gas build up before you are able to really pump out of your two ports. You won't be able to go mass raven but will have a more balanced medivac/tank/raven + mass marine army.
- 10 Depot - 12 Rax - 13 Rax (or whenever you have the first 150) - 15 Orbital (should get your 150 as soon as the first rax finishes) * Continuous Marines, Poke at 2-4 Marines. May take some SCVs for a bunker rush. - 2nd Depot - 2nd CC at 400 min - Double Gas - 2 Rax + Tech lab - Start Stim and then CS when you have the gas. - Ebay - Factory + Double Gas - Tech to 2 Starport with tech labs. You can probably swap the CC and the 2nd depot depending on your preference. The main advantage of this build is that you get more marines that most Z's will suspect early game and fairly fast ravens. A very similar build was used in game 1 by + Show Spoiler +Fake Boxer to counter FruitDealer's 14 Hatch in GSL2. The main disadvantage is that this is at the cost to your mid game marine count and tech. You will largely only have unupgraded marines and won't be able to control the map as effectively as with KME's build. Due to the lowered unit count in the mid game, you will probably want to play more defensively unless you were able to do damage to the zerg.
With this opening, there is a timing right before lings at out on a 14 hatch when you can get 3-4 marines to the Zerg Expo. You can bunker rush if you feel like it.
This build will give you an extremely strong wall. You will be able to wall off with a depot and 2 rax. You will also have the option of using your CC as part of your wall. Moving out to take your third may be tricky with your low unit count so getting a quick factory and some sort of siege expand may be required. Just mule and saturate your minerals in the mean time.
With this build you should be fairly safe from a RR since you will be constantly producing marines out of two barracks. You should have more than enough units to counter a RR. You will still probably want to place a bunker.
If you don't like either of these builds, do a FE that you like. You will need 2 bases for this to work. However you get there, the unit composition requires you to get your expo up rather quickly. This is much like the original SK Terran build that this is based off where Terran built up for a big push off two bases.
Strategy and Mentality
+ Show Spoiler +
There are several overwriting things to keep in mind with this build.
First, you must not be afraid of venturing out of your base to punish the zerg. If you FE against the zerg FE, you are on an even footing and in some cases may out produce zerg. The whole build works because you trade armies with the zerg. This trading is in Terran's advantage for two reasons:
One reason is that Zerg's macro mechanic only allows them to increase production capacity. This in turn allows Zerg to power econ by not building offensive units. However, if you continually trade armies, zerg must rebuild units instead of drones limiting their econ.
The other reason is that the mass marine army is obviously mineral bound while zerg's army is gas bound. Every scary zerg unit requires some sort of gas. Thus you are in effect trading minerals for gas when you trade armies. This slows tech and limits the amount of scary units that zerg can build. The fact that your marine army is mineral bound and the Terran macro mechanic of 'givemee more minerals now' allows Terran to support a ridiculous number of raxes while not slowing tech or cutting workers. If you are constantly aggressive and have some map control, you can also reduce the amount of scans you need and maximize mule minerals. Good marine positioning can easily detect or intercept zerg armies as well.
Second, you must control the creep. Creep is essential for Zerg to defend expos, keep tabs on your army, and gain position on your army. It also decreases the effectiveness of zerg units. Believe me, banelings off creep are MUCH less scary than on creep with or without speed.
Third, you must keep your ravens alive at all costs. You can usually do great in the early game with just marines. A sufficient number of Marines can feasibly trade relatively evenly with armies of just small numbers of roaches, lings, and blings. However, once mass roach, hydras, mutas, and infestors are out, the cost effectiveness of the mass marine army wanes without auto-turret, HSM, and PDD support. Your raven fleet also begins to snow ball once you reach a critical mass of about 7 and you can start picking apart the zerg with HSM, auto turret harass, or auto turret slow push into their natural.
Fourth, your big push will come out right as Zerg's third pops but before he really saturates it. On most maps, you must deny this expo and get your own third up. Or else you will burn out or zerg will begin to field sufficient mid-late game untis to deal with your marine and raven spam. Sufficient Infestor numbers are one of the major concerns that you must worry about. They can lock down and trap your ravens as well as demolish large chunks of you marine army.
How to Play Against Certain Strategies
+ Show Spoiler +Just a few tips if you need some help... Fast Expanding Builds+ Show Spoiler +This is one of the more common builds near the top of the ladder. Muta/Ling/Bling with Fast Third Base+ Show Spoiler +
This build aims to get a quick third using fast mutas/blings/speedlings to gain map control and exploit more immobile terrans.
This is one of the dominant styles of play. However, this Marine/Raven is more or less a direct counter and is designed as such. A fast third means zerg will not be able to apply more than a token amount of pressure. You have timings that abuse zerg's minimal unit counts with the 20 marine poke and the 30 marine + raven push so abuse the heck out of them. You can usually barrel down the zerg and continually apply pressure until zerg burns out on his 2.5 bases.
Zerg may start planting hatches due to the amount of minerals that start building up. You can ignore them until they get decent drone count up.
Any other? These build are typically encountered on maps with short rush distances or against less experienced players. + Show Spoiler +Mass Muta + X+ Show Spoiler +
This is basically the same style as above except that zerg will use the full force of 2/3 larva injected hatches to counter your style of play with massive air and ground armies. You will no longer be able to secure as favorable trades because your army advantage is smaller. In fact zerg may be able to get the better of you by killing your armies and supplementing their survivors with reinforcements for a counter. Large amounts of muta are especially bothersome because they can quickly counter attack your mineral line after a big army trade. Try to expand into a third base somewhere and prevent zerg from destroying your army and getting its own third up.
To be successful playing Marine Raven, you must be more deliberate in your decision making and not be too overly aggressive. The trading theorycrafting still holds true but Zerg may be able to macro so many units that you will have a hard time. A slow push or contain with bunkers and auto turret fields is a good idea. Keep the map scouted and decreeped the best you can. The addition of units such as Thors and tanks are definitely options to deal with the ground army or the mutas respectively.
It shouldn't be too difficult to play against but it is definitely not as straight forward as the more conventional muta/ling with a fast third.
This is a fairly dangerous composition to deal with. It has fairly high retention and you can end up losing your whole raven fleet quite easily. Frequently X = a sprinkling of roaches or banelings. + Show Spoiler +
I've seen this as a standard transition or a Roach Rush transition. This is more difficult to counter with pure marine/raven. You can combat this with pure marine/raven but getting some marauders, hellions, or tanks is a good idea. Auto Turrets are much less usable due to the front loaded damage of Roaches and Hydras. You will need to favor PPD and HSM and delay your pushes accordingly until your ravens have enough energy. You will really want to control creep spread to reduce the mobility of this army.
The main strength of this build vs marine raven is retention of units. Roaches are very robust and Hydras are very damaging. The addition of both infestors and banelings only make matters worse. This army can also reach a critical mass where it becomes very difficult to deal with. (See Idra during the Beta) There are weaknesses as well, the army is relatively immobile off creep compared to muta/ling and your own army. The army is costly to mass and Zerg and takes longer to rebuild thank yours.
Proper raven micro can help you greatly as well. Ravens fall quite quickly to hydras so keep them in the rear. Casting one or two PDDs before your ravens fly in to support is a good habit to have and don't be afraid to cast it above your marines as it s radius is larger than you think. Likewise case HSM from behind your units so your ravens can quickly retreat.
Fast InfestorsThis can be a rude surprise when you run into it the first time. + Show Spoiler +
A fast Infestor will come out before your first raven and basically destroy your first push. If you spot an infestation pit, you need to be very careful. Typically getting this tech quickly will force Zerg to stay on two base so see above. HSM is good for picking off an isolated infestor but you usually won't have it up for the first big push unless you delay your push. Be sure to spread your units out!
Infestors... This are hard to deal with but they come in small numbers due to their high gas cost. If you were just to theory craft, you would think these counter everything in the marine raven composition. With low numbers, Z really needs to get off key fungal growths on both the ravens and your army to win so don't let them do that. You need to play a little more cautious. The key thing to know is where the Infestors are. Limit creep spread, snipe Infestors when you can. If you have to lose a bunch of marines to take out an Infestor, do it because zerg can't replace them all that well and still afford large amounts of other units. In my experience the best solution is slow turret pushes. Keep your marines back and crawl with turrets. Force Zerg to fight your fight and not his. If zerg does get another expo up and start to go mass infestor, you should have have your third up for a while and getting ready to take #4(see KME's game on lost temple). Also you may want to bring a few SCVs with your army to fix up your ravens since they do tend to clump and Zerg usually does manage to get a few fungals on them. Also, I think it goes without saying that Medivacs are quite useful in this situation. Hero Muta misses his PLAGUU.
Eh, this is not that fun to play. You really need to be careful with your ravens and keep marines with them. Just know that their ground army is weaker. I'm not really sure how feasible this comp is off 2 bases though.
This isn't actually as scary. Ultras/Broodlords quite frankly just aren't that great in the low numbers that result from not being able to stockpile gas. If you see a few brood lords, you can HSM it or surround them with auto turrets (funny). Really, as long as you have your macro up, don't lost everything you have, and have atleast even bases and Zerg is throwing gas units at you, shouldn't have too much problem with late game units.
IMPORTANT: Don't forget upgrades. Marines throw out so much DPS at 3/3 that even ultras fall quite quickly to them.
Raven Tricks with Pics
+ Show Spoiler +Basic Turret PlacementRamp BlockYou can use two or three turrets to block or narrow a ramp. Zerg will have to spend two or three banelings to break it down quickly. It is a good way to delay lings from pursuing your marines up a ramp or force roaches/hydras to stop and shoot for about a second or two. Turret Behind the Minerals![[image loading]](http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/6168/turretsbehindminerals.jpg) Turrets behind the minerals is one of the most basic uses for Raven harass. Positioning turrets like this makes them extremely hard to attack with melee units effectively and the long lifespan of each turret denies mining for 3/4 minutes. If left alone long enough both geysers and hatches will die to turret fire.
Baneling Splitting Tricks with Diagrams
Coming Soon
+ Show Spoiler +
Other Notes:
+ Show Spoiler +
You can support a max of 600 min/minute and about 250 gas/minute off 1 base. That is 5 rax and 1 SP so you should end up with 8-10 rax and 2 SP off 2 bases.
Reps:
+ Show Spoiler +High Diamond+ Show Spoiler +PokeBunny 2K Diamond Rep Pack - "This build is actually not that bad"+ Show Spoiler +MadisonStreet Early Bio Pressure into FE into Mid-Game SK Terran Style(Not necessarily MR)+ Show Spoiler + KME Reps #1+ Show Spoiler +
kmeNote: Games range in quality from worst to best if I remember correctly. But they are all Awesome  .
"I killed his first 6 marines, I'm ahead and can power drones." Marine + Tank + Raven + Medivac with a good demo of the 20 marine poke along with some EHAN upgrade timing: This replay is me fighting a zerg that goes all-in and elects to get massive armies instead of econ. The play quite frankly wasn't that great but it demonstrates a fairly decent early game up to the failed 1st raven push. This also demonstrates the flexibility of 2 base mass marine play since I was experimenting with working in a drop with the first attack. http://www.filefront.com/17452525/TerranOP.SC2ReplayLosing to a 2 Base Ling/Roach Push. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-165322.jpg) Winning late game Marine/Raven. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-165323.jpg)
Good luck and have fun!Last edit: 2010-11-15 07:29:41 |
| [ﾟnﾟ] SSSSssssssSSsss ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Marine/Raven Guide:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163605 |
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| TheAntZ Bangladesh. October 25 2010 14:15. Posts 5868 | Profile Blog # |
Your analysis of why the build works and your description of everything is amazing. Awesome read, thank you! 
edit: your name means book in russian, is that deliberate? Last edit: 2010-10-25 14:16:03 |
| | 43084 | Honeybadger: "So july, you're in the GSL finals. How do you feel?!" ~ July: "HUNGRY." | |
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| No0n United States. October 25 2010 14:28. Posts 305 | Profile # |
| I've also been working on this and it seems if you add some tanks into the mix (Bw style :D) it is quite good. The main thing you MUST look out for are infestors. Infestor Bling will totally kill this style of play, so the main thing is you have to deny the zerg a 4th gas (like BW) so they can't get many infestors with a good sized ling count. Later I usually add medivacs. |
| | Hyuk > Flash // Probes OP >__> <__< // Park Sang Woo(Sea.Really) Fighting!________________________________________________________E-STRO |
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 TurtlePerson2 United States. October 25 2010 14:33. Posts 218 | Profile # |
What about adding hellions into the mix? They're minerals only and they'll destroy the blings better than marines can.
My concerns with this build are Brood Lords and Infestors. I saw fungal growth in one game and it was effective, but NP is a bigger concern. If he uses an HSM against you then you'd be in trouble. |
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| link0 United States. October 25 2010 14:34. Posts 1071 | Profile # |
The problem of this build is roach/hydra.
User was warned for this post |
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| Happy Frog Australia. October 25 2010 14:39. Posts 432 | Profile # |
| Cheers, been looking for different ideas for TvZ. Good read, watching reps now. |
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| evanthebouncy! United States. October 25 2010 14:45. Posts 10737 | Profile Blog # |
On October 25 2010 14:33 TurtlePerson2 wrote:
What about adding hellions into the mix? They're minerals only and they'll destroy the blings better than marines can.
My concerns with this build are Brood Lords and Infestors. I saw fungal growth in one game and it was effective, but NP is a bigger concern. If he uses an HSM against you then you'd be in trouble.
haha as in he mind control all the raven and blow themselves up? xD sounds pretty potent. |
| | Life is run, it is dance, it is fast, passionate and BAM!, you dance and sing and booze while you can for now is the time and time is mine. Smile and laugh when still can for now is the time and soon you die! |
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| Hyren United States. October 25 2010 14:48. Posts 565 | Profile Blog # |
| <3 <3 <3 I've been having a lot of trouble with mid-late game TvZ so I'll definitely try this out ^^ |
| | Proud moderator of Trump's stream <3 // "Sometimes, Starcraft's just gotta take priority." - Gordon Hayward |
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| n3mo United States. October 25 2010 14:49. Posts 297 | Profile # |
good read, and i'd love to bring SK terran back =]
question - do you combine this with drop play too?
btw, don't think roach hydra would do much - if you see that you can easily swap out for extra marauders, and marines/HSM/PDD should do fine against hydras if you position nicely. actually, you might even be able to flank the slower hydras and force them to run from a HSM into a marine ball. |
| | My hatred for [banelings] is way greater than my compassion |
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| aNx Australia. October 25 2010 15:05. Posts 12 | Profile # |
On October 25 2010 14:34 link0 wrote:
The problem of this build is roach/hydra.
Actually I have been using this build with pretty decent success against roach hydra.
The reason is with that many ravens you can just throw down 5-6 PDDs (roaches have TWO SECOND attack which means that the point defence drones stop everything they throw at you) and so your marines literally do not take hits, and since marine dps is so potent they can just rip through huge amounts of roach hydra without getting taking many hits at all. |
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| Meapak_Ziphh United States. October 25 2010 15:07. Posts 4151 | Profile Blog # |
| Wow really nice job <3, the quality of this made my night. I'm just a bit curious, would ultras stop this or do you plan to HSM them before they can do damage? |
| | Forti et Fideli ~ TL Mafia Forum: Come play with us! ~ Go Samsung KHAN, Stork, JangBi , Shine, Grape, and TurN Fighting!~ wat |
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| drdovetalk Singapore. October 25 2010 15:11. Posts 27 | Profile # | |
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| KiLL_ORdeR United States. October 25 2010 15:14. Posts 1433 | Profile Blog # |
| Chill needs to sticky this. Not only is the strategy good, with supplemental builds, but it's also a very organized, well thought out post. I definitely want to try this strategy out in practice and maybe take it to the ladder if it works out. |
| | In order to move forward, we must rid ourselves of that which holds us back. Check out my stream and give me tips! twitch.tv/intotheskyy |
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| Zecias United States. October 25 2010 15:15. Posts 116 | Profile # |
On October 25 2010 14:28 NiTrOuS wrote:
I've also been working on this and it seems if you add some tanks into the mix (Bw style :D) it is quite good. The main thing you MUST look out for are infestors. Infestor Bling will totally kill this style of play, so the main thing is you have to deny the zerg a 4th gas (like BW) so they can't get many infestors with a good sized ling count. Later I usually add medivacs.
with proper micro, u can use auto turrets to soak up the baneling damage.
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| KiLL_ORdeR United States. October 25 2010 15:21. Posts 1433 | Profile Blog # |
On October 25 2010 14:34 link0 wrote:
The problem of this build is roach/hydra.
Wait, really? You should be warned for this post, maybe banned. Also, since pdd stop hydra shots, and you're going to constantly be removing zergs creep, I would imagine that Hydra's are the worst thing to counter this style of play, but that's just theorycrafting, since I haven't tried this yet.
As for roaches, you can easily get marauders quickly if need be, and then abuse his base with banshees, which i'm assuming you will need to get late-game anyway since that's the best counter to infestors Terran has. |
| | In order to move forward, we must rid ourselves of that which holds us back. Check out my stream and give me tips! twitch.tv/intotheskyy |
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 shakenbake United States. October 25 2010 15:33. Posts 207 | Profile # |
| not gonna lie, was extremely skeptical about this strategy because i just assumed bane lings absolutely rape marines. In the reps u lost quite a bit of marines but u made great use the the auto turret and especially HSM. Very nice play. I also like that this isn't the typical terran play of gimmicky harass that hasn't worked since 1.1.2 making this a much needed change-up to the TvZ matchup. edit : also lol at the zerg tears from the last reps against hasua or whatever. Last edit: 2010-10-25 15:46:20 |
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| Kyobi United States. October 25 2010 15:42. Posts 37 | Profile # |
| I generally go infestor heavy if I scout terran going bio that late in the game. Still it would be interesting seeing this build being used as opposed to the standard hellion rush into banshee into expansion + thors. |
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| Azzur Australia. October 25 2010 15:46. Posts 5852 | Profile Blog # |
Nice guide! I'm inspired to try it.
I've done my own raven build where I go mass mass ravens/banshee off 2 bases. If they zerg gets mutas, I defend a little and pump vikings as well. |
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| P00RKID United States. October 25 2010 15:46. Posts 424 | Profile # |
I've been meaning to try to go baneling + infestor + queen (and a handfull of roach) when I see this type of play. Baneling infestor easily counterys heavy marine, infestor + queen fights off raven packs (and roach to clean up auto-turrets) and extra queens also help to re-spread lost creep tumors. If played defensively while expanding, you would be at minimal risk of raven harassment, just fungal growth and kill with queens.
Raven marine is harder to stop than you would think, but with practice it becomes less scary I think. If terran adds in a few vikings to hunt overlords it makes it harder for Z to expo and drone as freely without having enough scouting info to do so safely. |
| | "Does your butt hurt? 'cause you fell from heaven once the cast was over?" Artosis |
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| rauk United States. October 25 2010 15:48. Posts 1707 | Profile Blog # |
Hi I have another build order for this exact same strategy for you to check out ^^
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=148558
I've modified the build since the two months I've been using it (I don't cut marine/scv anymore so the CC is around 22-23 food) but I like the ability to harass zerg with hellions better than going only rax CC, and it doesn't have problems with baneling bust or roach rush because there aren't any supply depots in my wall.
I also favor getting 2 rax with techlabs so I can make a couple of marauders, it's a lot more reliable to tank banelings with 4-5 marauders in front rather than trying to micro against them with pure marine.Last edit: 2010-10-25 15:52:29 |
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