| mrgerry United States. November 12 2011 13:49. Posts 1074 | Profile # |
| Go 9/9/12 if you scared with swain, problem solved y0 |
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| petered United States. November 12 2011 14:02. Posts 1022 | Profile # |
The whole utility tree is just too good on swain. Lower summoner CD on your ignite gives a huge boost to damage (e+ignite is so much free damage).
The buff duration super useful since you are probably the best target for blue buff after the first couple.
Movespeed always good and it lets you kite melee forever with q
Mana regen lets you open boots + pots which is much safer than crystal + pots.
I personally wouldn't ever take anything but 21 in utility on swain. |
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| R04R United States. November 12 2011 15:07. Posts 1134 | Profile # |
| 9/7/14 lets you go deeper into util |
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| sylverfyre United States. November 12 2011 15:36. Posts 4136 | Profile # |
On November 12 2011 09:53 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +On November 12 2011 09:44 Haemonculus wrote:
On November 12 2011 09:41 TheYango wrote:
Given that R is post-mitigation damage now, it's arguable that 15% MPen contributes considerably to your mid-lategame tankiness in fights now as well. 15% MPen is something like a 10-15% damage increase (higher vs. high MR targets, something like 12% damage increase vs. like 150 MR). 10-15% more damage dealt = 10-15% more healing from R, which is probably more significant "tankiness" than 6 armor and 6 MR.
Haha, I hadn't even considered that. Very good point. Shit, what are the best masteries for swain? I always run 9/0/21 or 0/9/21 depending on how scared I am of the early game.
That's probably the best way to decide, given that SoS is the deal-breaker in that decision most of the time. Personally I think 9/0/21 actually seems to be the better way in most cases right now. Boots+3pot is going to be a way more common start than Blue Crystal+2pot, meaning SoS doesn't kick in to a significant amount of hp5 for a while. Hp5 becomes a significantly less useful stat for you after level 6, and if you're not starting with Blue Crystal, the level 1-5 value of SoS just isn't that high (2 Hp5 at level 1, to about 4 Hp5 at level 5--not going to make or break that many matchups).
Yeah, and if you're scared enough of your lane matchup to pick SOS over mpen, what are you THINKING opening with mana crystal+2pot anyway? 9/0/21 99% of the time imo, because of how Swain's R works.
I don't like 9/7/14 because deep utility is too good. 6% CDR, summoner CD (doubly so for flash CD), 3% MS and 3MP5 are all good and keep you safe in lane more than ~4HP5 will.Last edit: 2011-11-12 15:38:52 |
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| overt United States. November 12 2011 17:03. Posts 3982 | Profile Blog # |
On November 12 2011 09:00 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +On November 12 2011 02:56 dnastyx wrote:
On November 12 2011 02:28 Sponkz wrote:
Man swain shits on melee so hard lol.
FTFY Actually, are there any melee lanes that Swain loses?
I shat on a Swain pretty hard with Wu Kong in one game. It may have just been a bad Swain though. EDIT: Then again, I was knocking off like 1/2 of his HP with each of my E/Q combos in the early game. Not sure what he could have done.
WuKong lane is pretty annoying and I think it might be secret OP. He just does so much god damn damage early. Regardless, Swain should've went cloth + 5 pot or else played a bit more passive if he was boots + 3 pot.
I don't think WuKong beats Swain in lane though. But I haven't played that particular matchup enough to know. That Swain was definitely bad if you say he died three times in lane. I wouldn't assume WuKong > Swain from just a single game (especially since the Swain was obviously bad).
The most fun part of Swain is just how fuckin' aggressive you can get in lane and how nearly every melee can't really punish you for it. |
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| h3r1n6 Iceland. November 12 2011 17:45. Posts 1556 | Profile Blog # |
On November 12 2011 17:03 overt wrote:
Show nested quote +On November 12 2011 09:00 xDaunt wrote:
On November 12 2011 02:56 dnastyx wrote:
On November 12 2011 02:28 Sponkz wrote:
Man swain shits on melee so hard lol.
FTFY Actually, are there any melee lanes that Swain loses?
I shat on a Swain pretty hard with Wu Kong in one game. It may have just been a bad Swain though. EDIT: Then again, I was knocking off like 1/2 of his HP with each of my E/Q combos in the early game. Not sure what he could have done.
The most fun part of Swain is just how fuckin' aggressive you can get in lane and how nearly every melee can't really punish you for it.
Swains harassment in lane is like a speedshuttle with a reaver and 2 dts in it :DLast edit: 2011-11-12 17:45:33 |
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| Cloud9157 United States. November 12 2011 18:02. Posts 1734 | Profile # |
How does Swain fair against Kass?
I've played the matchup from Kassadin's side, and the first time I had difficulty and barely killed him (both low HPs). Second time I completely roflstomped Swain.
I know Kass is a huge anti caster, but how can you really kill someone who sustains as well as Swain? Swain just needs to play passively until lvl 6 imo, then he can go out and farm till his heart is content without being that afraid of Kass. |
| | "Are you absolutely sure that armor only affects the health portion of a protoss army??? That doesn't sound right to me. source?" -Some idiot |
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| Alaric France. November 12 2011 22:39. Posts 8760 | Profile # |
From the little experience I had against LB/Kassadin, knowing when you risk getting bumrushed and pressing R preventively can help quite a lot around level 6-9 since if you're both full HP they shouldn't be able to overkill you enough to pass through that healing. But that was more threatening to kill them too in the process that really tanking their aggro that made them hesitate.
Also, thoughts on new masteries? 21-0-9 looks like it'd be quite strong on him (choice between flat mana pool and ms tho, but I think my inner MS whoring will speak). |
| | "This build should be called the Neutron Bomb build - you can win by taking out all the people but leaving all the structures standing." - somebody about iEchoic's 2fac/2port (www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189624) |
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| Shawngood Germany. November 12 2011 22:50. Posts 382 | Profile # |
The other day Chauster said on his stream that Swain owns Kass and he proceeded to win toplane quite easily. Q/E-harass any time Kass went for lasthits. Later on he didn't even have to preemptively hit R when Kass would go for his combo. Just heal back up afterwards... Then again that Kass went for Philostone first so I doubt he played it right.  |
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| h3r1n6 Iceland. November 12 2011 23:01. Posts 1556 | Profile Blog # |
On November 12 2011 22:50 Shawngood wrote:The other day Chauster said on his stream that Swain owns Kass and he proceeded to win toplane quite easily. Q/E-harass any time Kass went for lasthits. Later on he didn't even have to preemptively hit R when Kass would go for his combo. Just heal back up afterwards... Then again that Kass went for Philostone first so I doubt he played it right.
Without any sustain items or blue buff, kassadin will sit there oom, while swain just dicks him out of lane with full hp and mana.
As for the new masteries, spellvamp cdr and +experience, vs ap, damage and more ap. And 15%cdr on summoners vs 6% more damage against targets below 40%.
Since the ap and damage increase will increase the healing too, it should be much better than the spellvamp. CDR and experience gain is nice, but I'm leaning towards 21 offense. |
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| Cloud9157 United States. November 13 2011 03:52. Posts 1734 | Profile # |
So you can trade E+Q with Kassadin's Q?
Q is so annoying as my enemies have told me, haha.
Edit: Was just looking at the new Mastery tree, and I'm thinking about a 10/10/10 build for Swain. Key is to get magic pen, +30 health, and +3% spell vamp.
Dunno how viable it is, but just an idea so far.Last edit: 2011-11-13 09:26:55 |
| | "Are you absolutely sure that armor only affects the health portion of a protoss army??? That doesn't sound right to me. source?" -Some idiot |
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| Alaric France. November 13 2011 10:09. Posts 8760 | Profile # |
| I wouldn't like that. Too few spellvamp considering it's already reduced to a third by the fact that it's AoE, just getting more AP from the offense tree would be more effective post-6. Probably viable, but not the best available. |
| | "This build should be called the Neutron Bomb build - you can win by taking out all the people but leaving all the structures standing." - somebody about iEchoic's 2fac/2port (www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189624) |
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| Malderon Netherlands. December 07 2011 00:11. Posts 99 | Profile # |
On May 17 2011 00:50 Slayer91 wrote:
Also catalyst-->deathcap-->zonyas-->bveil pretty standard swain build atm I think, just hog blue buff as much as possible.
Won't this build leave you too squishy? On Malzahar I like it a lot, because he isn't nearly as big of a manaslurper as Swain, and in teamfights he can just sit back and cast his crazy AoE damage from afar, whereas Swain needs to close in more to get the most out of his ultimate. These two factors make rushing Rod of Ages seem more attractive, because Rod gives you the health and mana much earlier than Cata->Dcap->Bveil.
Would it be reasonable to conclude that the amount of bulk you need on Swain depends on how well your team can protect you, and the amount of mana on how much you can see yourself getting Blue buff? This fledling bird would love to hear the opinion of experienced Swain players on this matter  .
Speaking of mana, all of Swain's spells cost are fairly expensive and have fairly long cooldowns, making Tear seem unattractive to me unless as an emergency measure in case you can't get blue buff enough. Any thoughts? |
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| Tooplark United States. December 07 2011 01:15. Posts 1729 | Profile # |
Wukong should only beat swain if swain
a) commits to early trades or tries to bully wukong at level 2
b) doesn't react fast enough to EQ wukong while he's nimbus striking you
If Wukong nimbus strikes you he is GOING to eat a full EQ combo unless he manages to Decoy away before you get him.
Swain doesn't need much survivability at all once he gets zhonyas. If you're getting focused down early either your team sucks or you're way out of position. (It's usually the second.)
Your team's job isn't to protect you. It's to follow up when you catch someone with a nevermove, or kill people while you kite them in birdform, or to clean up after you almost kill the enemy team. AP helps you do all of these things better than tankiness does.
Catalyst -> DCap -> Zhonya -> BVeil is about the safest, most durable swain build.
Tear -> DCap -> Zhonya -> QSS -> AA gives you more damage, a bigger mana pool and a GARENteed ult->zhonya in fights, especially useful if they have some jerk with suppression, but at the expense of a health pool, spell block (can't qss blitz hook!), and early laning durability
Glacial -> DCap -> Zhonya if you're fighting a physical dick and having trouble, and/or the enemy team is heavily phys.
If you need more survivability than this, usually it means you're playing wrong. Some games you actually do need it (fed melee dps that you can't kite, etc) and you should get zhonya's first and delay deathcap for Guardian Angel or Randuin's. Deathcap is such a juicy power boost though that I strongly recommend getting it second.
How do the high costs of his spells make tear less attractive? Blue buff regeneration scales with mana pool, so the more mana you have the sooner you'll have enough for a spell if you carelessly ran yourself out. Blue buff will never let you ult indefinitely, unlike with, say, Anivia. It just adds to the duration. Tear is good because the bigger your mana pool is the longer you can safely ult. |
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| Malderon Netherlands. December 07 2011 02:31. Posts 99 | Profile # |
Thanks for the swift response, that makes a lot of sense.
Regarding high spell costs and Tear, I figured that such costs combined with high cooldowns would make it take forever to charge up the Tear. High CD being the most limiting factor if one has Blue. Furthermore, Lazerbird is cast immediately after E, within the cooldown of a charging Tear, so out of those two spells you only get one charge. |
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| FieryBalrog United States. December 07 2011 03:22. Posts 1306 | Profile Blog # |
| I think you can cast 2 spells in the window and get charges for both.. at least when I've done it and looked at the mana bonus after each cast, it goes up both times.... |
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| 57 Corvette Canada. December 07 2011 03:45. Posts 4057 | Profile Blog # |
Is it ok to get hourglass before deathcap in some situations, or should it be a mad dash for the cap as early as possible?
I played a game yesterday against morgana mid, but luckily she wasn't being agressive early and it got to the farm-fest point. I went Boots+pots > dring > Boots2 > hourglass > deathcap , and in that time between when I had hourglass and not deathcap, the active saved me at least twice. |
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| nosliw United States. December 07 2011 04:31. Posts 1824 | Profile Blog # |
| What masteries do people put on him? Now that SoS is gone, no more def points? |
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| h3r1n6 Iceland. December 11 2011 06:45. Posts 1556 | Profile Blog # |
On December 07 2011 03:45 57 Corvette wrote:
Is it ok to get hourglass before deathcap in some situations, or should it be a mad dash for the cap as early as possible?
I played a game yesterday against morgana mid, but luckily she wasn't being agressive early and it got to the farm-fest point. I went Boots+pots > dring > Boots2 > hourglass > deathcap , and in that time between when I had hourglass and not deathcap, the active saved me at least twice.
Of course it is. You sacrifice damage for survivability, but it's ok. If you can make good use of the active its worth it.
On December 07 2011 04:31 nosliw wrote:
What masteries do people put on him? Now that SoS is gone, no more def points?
21/0/9. Offense tree is too strong to pass up on and the buff duration is a must have on Swain. |
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| ManyCookies January 20 2012 00:38. Posts 628 | Profile # |
| Does anyone else have enormous difficulty last hitting with Swain? I have to run AD runes+Quints and take AD+Minion damage masteries just to last hit with the consistency I do with other champions. |
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