I'm Geiko, Sc2 player since Beta, currently mediocre diamond (~1800) in 1v1 and formally pretty high up in the 2v2 world ladder (somewhere around top60 World - top25 Europe according to sc2ranks).
The build I'm here to talk about is the build that has gotten me and my partner to top 25 EU in 2v2, and by that i mean, we ONLY did this one build. I've had fun with it, but it's getting pretty boring winning only like this so i now feel ready to share with the SC2 community and hopefully get some feedback. At this point, I'd just like to note that i am NOT bragging about having been top x in any ladder, as everyone knows the 2v2 ladder isn't that competitive. Just stating it to emphasize on the fact that we've been testing this build against the best 2v2 players and that this is not some Gold division post claiming that double 6 pool is imba or god knows.
Out of the hundred or so games I've played, we still haven't found anyone that could counter the build assuming no mistakes from us and other conditions which I'll talk about later.
The build :
Protoss : 5 WG rush with a proxy pylon under the cliff of each base
10 extractor (start the extractor when you have 100minerals)-> 2 workers on it. Stop when 100 gas 9 pool 10 overlord 11 queen -> only use for larva inject 13 zergling 14 zergling speed 14 zergling 15 overlord 15+ zerglings and overlords
At this point, most of the readers are disappointed i think ! WG + overlord is a pretty known combo after all and the build isn't anything really new in itself. However, what makes it so strong is the added timing considerations, and optimizations.
You all understood the aim of the build was to warp zealots in the opponent's base thanks to overlord vision, with zergling supporting / distracting / intercepting the guy's ally. Now, let's get to why this build works.
Why it works :
4 WG rush (korean rush) is a pretty aggressive and effective build in 1v1. This 5 WG is even scarier. -not scouted immediately compared to 1v1 -no need for 3 or 4 in-base pylons : 1 pylon outside the base and out of harm's way is enough. This allows you to afford a 5th gateway with zealot production. -unbeatable mobility : if somehow the guy's ally manages to come help. You can warp 5 zealots at that other guy's base where he doesn't have his army.
The 24 speedling push is incredibly effective. it's designed to be at maximum power at around 4:40. This means that no zerg can have a bigger army at that point in time, no matter the build (i used the evolution chamber program i admit it). For that matter, i think no race can have a more effective army at that point in time (at least not in open field). The 4:40 timing is critical : that's when you'll HAVE to have map control in order to protect the proxy probe. The build fails miserably if you lose your proxy probe/proxy Pylon. I guarantee you that 24 speedlings will keep that probe safe, no matter if your opponents scout it / know it's coming.
Ever played Counter Strike ? Well be ready to "Protect the VIP team"
To sum it up : the build works because 5 zealots constant production and 24+ speedling in one guy's base is insanely strong at ~5:15. The build is OP because warp gate tech and zergling speed means you can switch instantly from one base to the other. All the above is if everything goes as planned and we reach the 5:15 mark without being bothered. that's obviously not always the case, we will now answer the most important question regarding any build :
When does it work ?
Surprisingly, pretty much against anything that is >12 gate or >12pool. That is to say : If i see an overlord before pool, or a slower gate than mine, I already know I've won. Since terran nerf, they can't really throw anything at you before 5 minutes anyways. This is the reason for the provocative title. It's unbeatable if you try to do anything standard (that is to say, if you don't do a very aggressive opening before scouting).
How about when it doesn't work ?
The beauty about this opening is that it is cheese-proof, and early-aggression proof. The scouting probe at 10 tells you if you can proceed with the build or not. 1 guy being aggressive and the other guy teching : you can proceed. 2 guys aggressive/cheesy, switch to standard 10/12 double gate and you're good to play a regular game with a slight advantage. Zerg can delay queen to get 6 lings out faster. 10gate / 10 pool is the best opening against any kind of cheese.
Replay or it didn't happen ?
As I've said in the introduction, we've been well ranked for a while so we got to play with pretty good teams out there. This first replay is against Ore (one of the best female European player of SC-BW) and mouzDreiven (a pretty well known semi pro BW player). Interesting replay because it shows our strategy up against 10/12gate and 3racks aggressive builds. These player are far better than us but we still take the game. (you can notice skill difference by how he almost manages to pull back in the game 1vs2. yes , we are really that bad :D )
The second replay is us against Honor and Zephy (currently sitting at top 20 world ladder top 10 European ladder). Pretty Standard 14 gas/14 pool and 14 gate. I like this replay for three things : -Notice how we completely screw up when my ally forgets to send his zerglings to protect my pylon. We still manage to win even after a huge blunder like that. -The build is scouted but they can't do anything about it. -Got to love that rage at the end ^^
Third replay is by uTnMyLife and unhealthy. They are doing my build, up against mTwDeMusliM and ToD (professional war3 player) and showing them how it's done ! 14 Pool / 13 gate standard opening for the pro team.
4th game against yet another high ranked team in the world ladder ryusaki and delusion (rank 12 world, rank 5 Eu). bbs and SerDiuk were nice enough to submit this replay. they appearently went from gold division to playing (and beating) top players in 2v2 with a 25-0 win/loss using only this strat. A couple of mistakes here and there while executing the build, but they manage to pull it off nonetheless. in this replay, T going for marauder heavy army, while Z is getting banelings (14 pool)
Possible Limitations ?
Harder to pull off on common base maps. Especially with terran wall-off. Does still work however. Might want to alter the build for zergs into a fast baneling bust. While extremely effective vs any team with a protoss, it gets a little bit more complicated with zergs rushing roach and terrans rushing marauders while walling off. In that case, putting 2 zealots in mineral line and 3 zealots pounding at the front wall with zerglings works well.
Conclusion :
Hope you enjoyed the build. This is an extremely powerful cheese/all-in that will really work wonders if you want to win a game easily. If you want to actually learn how to play, don't do this to climb the ladder :D. We've come to the conclusion that in separate base maps, anything later then 10 gate 10 pool will get demolished no matter what. I'm still searching for a counter, so if anyone finds one, feel free to post it here !
Credits :
-Tester for the 4WG rush (or whoever he got it from) -The evolution chamber optimizing program for that sweet 24 spling rush -Blizzard for patch 1.1.2. Our build was already overpowered at release. But without the possibility of repearling, its just much more comfortable. Keep on balancing 2v2 blizzard !
Arg sorry about that, forgot to write in the BO you had to stop gaz production after the first 50. This is a slight variation of the standard 4WG rush so you do have to pull probes from gaz after 50 (i do it in the replays) Once you have warped in a couple rounds of zealots however, you can get some guys back in gas as you'll probably be needing stalkers
Last edit: 2010-11-21 12:39:46
geiko.813 (EU)
Krayze United States. November 21 2010 12:41. Posts 208
What you're forgetting is that a solid 1 base all in play can still lose 1on2 later on vs people that play macro or tech orientated. Sure your push is very solid at killing of one guy right away, but that's also how 2on2 works.
You even mention that "They almost beat us 1on2, that's how bad we are". No, that's how 2on2 works. You either go for a full push, or you base on late game and 1on2'ing with a better macro situation where one guys micros the army and the other just macros up.
In this case, it's all about the one guy that's being attacked survives as long as possible while the other guy macros up and then go ahead and kills your push. I mean you only have lings+zealots.
I speak fluent sarcasm.
AlexXx United States. November 21 2010 12:45. Posts 58
So u push out from ur base at around 5 minute mark with this build. Well ye its quite strong. Me and my friend are around 1600 diamond and we doing 3 roach + 2 Marauder + 2 Marine push at 4:00 - i think ur build wouldnt be quite ready at that time to defend effective but i can see it can easly punish any teching build - what i dont like about it is WEAK effectiveness against proper wall-off. I mean few bunkers or multiple cannons (like over 5) - imo at 5:15 they can already have quite a few of them, and the last problem i can see is again when they have shared base and good wall (not 1 depot wall) with quite a lot of RANGED units will be severe pain for u as u got 0 ranged units. Thats the reason why we changed from PZ to TZ - stalkers were to slow to get at 4:00 and zelots without speed are easy to kite and weak vs walls. Anyway nice post love ppl posting 2vs2 builds gj
@kasta, its true that if we take too long to kill off the first player, it might get tricky for us late game. However, this isn't theorycraft as we've thouroughly tested this build. By experience, a player that we attack at 1vs2 and isn't helped by his ally will fall in a matter of seconds with minimal loss for us. Our mobility and the possibility to warp zealots behind walls means we can finish off the second guy fast. At least i haven't encountered anyone who successfully 1vs2ed us after this.
@jarlax : Yep, timing pushes like the one you describe are a pain. I think we could pull it off as we do have 24 splings 30 seconds after your push, which are enough to take out your combined force. However, most probably after scouting a 10 pool/gas + 2 racks we would most probably switch to a defensive build and do just fine against it.
@skyR : Actually, it's unbeatable vs anyone going >12 gate or >12 pool. As i've stated in the post, if you scout early aggression, you have the best opening to react accordingly and go with a defensive build. We already had a couple of 60 or so games played before starting this strategy, and another 20 or so getting it right. At the end, our win rate was 100% vs standard play and pretty damn near 0% vs aggressive play as we weren't good enough to compete against those guys in a normal match. However, our opening allows good players to defend remarquably against other good players being aggressive. Terrans teching to hellions are not a concern. Zealots in mineral line > hellions killing zealots in 20 hits.
on most of the 2v2 map pool, it's either shared base or the two players can build below the ramp to create an extended walloff between the two bases. That's what my partner and I do (double toss).
At 4:40 we have 2 stalkers and 5 zlots about 5 seconds from your base, which seems like a close fight vs 24 lings, so idunno what would happen if we went for the attack.
At 5:15 we have 4 stalkers and ~9 (forget) zealots, and a cannon warping in at the front. Zerglings can't do anything vs wallin + 2 zlots + 1 stalker, so I guess at that point it comes down to whether your warpins can >> our combined armies, or kill enough probes, or stall long enough for your z friend to get banelings AND keep us from getting enough sentries to protect the wallin. Seems like a close battle where the winner will be whoever plays better.
On maps where our mains are distant your build would be pretty ridiculous, but TBH dual toss suuuuuck at those maps.
Oh, we do 10gate/15gate for the zlots, and 14/16 gate for the stalkers.
How about instead of 5WG + 24 lings, youo do marines+SCVs and 24 lings? Should be more consistent when dealing with the exceptions where the pylons get killed and you dont have the units to shoot past block-offs?
ktp United States. November 21 2010 16:05. Posts 797
Interesting, but I'm questioning its efficacy against a clean defense, unless it goes undetected.
Two-barracks Terran has enough marines to kill your warping zealots, and a wall-in to keep out Zerglings. A Zerg player will have Roach, or Roach/Ling, or mass Speedling, or Ling/Baneling... and the option to produce additional queens/spines/simcity for defense.
You'll probably roll the shit out of Protoss Warpgate openings, though.
Double 2 gate would beat this... The only reason this build is so strong is because the vast majority of 2v2 players are noobs that don't understand how to counter kr4gate, and because speedings are just fucking fast so it's almost always a 2v1 scenario...
Quick question, why a 5gate instead of the standard kr4gate?
Seems like a double Z could counter this pretty easily with spines+roaches assuming they aren't clueless with their scouting (both your builds are extremely easy to pick out...
Any sort of ZZ double ling play would crush this since P has absolutely nothing until warpgate finishes and it turns into 2v1.
Gas variant kr4gate vs regular kr4gate wins if you both happen to do that build.
2 rax+other builds hitting before that time would win.
Basically any build by any race that beats the kr4gate wins because it just turns into a 2v1 until the protoss gets his shit done...
You are not your APM, you are not you ladder ranking.
@Keilah : Our build does pretty ok against pushes that come a little before 5 minutes because of defender's advantage. If they are being aggressive, i can put down a extra pylon at my ally's base. He can stall for time with his 10 or so zerglings running around your army and threatening to kill reinforcing units. Once we finally manage to kill your attacking force, even if we lose a little back home, we can instantly counter-attack with 5 zealots and what's left of zerglings.
@uncultured : Once we have had enough training, yes we were at 100% winrate when we decide to do it (we don't see any aggressive build coming before 5minutes).
@ktp : We vetoed discord, twilight and war zone. our favorite map is tarsonis against none zergs because protoss doesn't even need the overlords and even if they scout it, they can't kill the pylon which is on high ground
@Severedevil : Against a two barrack player, we'de probably attack his ally 2v1. good luck getting those slow marines to help your buddy, especially when we know marines suck so much on open ground. Now if both players are terran and both are going 2 racks, that's a situation when we wouldn't do our build, or i was thinking of a baneling opening vs dual terrans... again, in situations where the others have enough stuff to counter you, that means they had to do some early production buildings which are scouted by the 9 probe. If you decide not to do the build, you are still in the best shape possible with the correct opening to counter early aggression.
@Lobber : 5WG instead of 4WG is a critical change for this build to work. 4WG is counterable as we've seen in 1v1. 5WG is pretty out of control... you can afford it because you save on in base pylons and the high ground vision is pretty much free (free overlords). 5WG no one can hold alone with a >12 gate opening. If you look at the replay with Honor and Zephy. He has 4 WGs to defend but that extra zealot that pops out just demolishes him. In the end, 4 zealots lose vs 5 zealots, and 8 zealots get demolished by 10 zealots. overall, the build seems very week on paper (i mean : zealots and zerglings ...) but in practise, we just have too much stuff. Double Z with > 12 pool will NOT have more zerglings combined than what my ally has. At least not with speed which pretty much the same as having no zerglings at all. And as i've said multiple times, any super fast double racks, roach, zealot push requires a 10 gate, 10 pool, early double racks which is easily scoutable by us. I'll say it (yet) again, this build is strong because : if they go >12 gate > 12 pool, we won as nothing of interest will be coming before 5 minutes that we can't kill. If they go 10 gate, 10 pool double racks, we have the best opening to react (10 gate, 10 pool)
@everyone : i encourage you to try out the build ! It seams really weak on paper but i assure you it is frightening. Even against walling off terrans, you can go for the wall in with your zealots instead of the mineral lines while your ally 1as the wall from the outside and eventualy you will win. Also, I would be VERY interested to see a replay of this strat losing to >12gate/pook/double racks on separate base locations.
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