|
Hello, fellow TL guys! My gamertag is decaf, I'm a Zerg player and got like 750 points in diamond. I am NOT a total noob, I just don't play 1v1 a whole lot so I got a bonus pool of 1030. I'm tryin to get into Masters meaning I gotta play a lot of 1v1 now. My issue: I just played a ZvT on LT and the terran totally outplayed me. Typical game I'd say; I went FE, he did a thor drop onto the cliff. I am not a very experienced player so I didn't really know, how to handle it (I think I have the skill though). Then he denied any muta harrass I was trying to pull off - it was very demotivating. I didn't opt for roaches in the 1st place (which was a mistake I guess), so I ended up having to less of 'em.
Replay-Link
I am really clueless right now. How do you handle this (to the Zerg players) and what are you afraid of the Zerg could do (to the Terran players)?
I'd be very pleased if you could help me out. I really want to improve my play and this is one of the games I really don't know how to defeat the opponent..
I'd like to thank you in advance for watching the replay and responding (and taking the time to read this) =)
|
vote down LT. That map is favours T in TvZ so much. Every1 will tell you such. If you get close - spawn on LT and the T knows what he's doing, you can't win (similiar level).
However, if you still insist going through that hell, do a gas steal, and be very good at deny'ing that gas. It'll slow down thor drop/banshees/mech push/2 thor scv all-in/.... alot of gay shit lol
It'll give you enough time to get mutas out to deal with cliff (you need magic-box). Place a couple of spines next to the cliff and overlords to spot to delay the thor from killing your hatch. REMEMBER, so long as you ONLY lose the hatch, you are not TOO far behind, remember that Thors are expensive along with the medvacs. Plant another hatch and try and come back, it can be done (NesTea vs Foxer gsl2 finals, NesTea got back into the game, but micro mistakes ended up costing him the game). Tbh, if it weren't for that cliff, LT would be a pretty decent map for Z.
|
lt is an awful map zvt. you can devote it in map preferences if u really want to. i like playing toss and zerg on lt so i didnt do that, but u can.
as for thor drops...
well i usually gas steal.
if u sacrifice an overlord u can see the thor drop coming, in which case i would put down a spine or 2 near the cliff and make some roaches. alternately u could go for fast mutas, which seems to be the typical (and maybe better) response. keep in mind that a thor drop is a gas heavy build so he will likely have more marines then u think possible back at his base. i see he denied ur muta harass, yeah expect that because of marine pump.
if u rush mutas (after fast expanding) u will get them slightly later then he drops the thor on your cliff.
whatever u do in this situation do not panic. you have 2 bases, and many drones. he has one. the thor drop cost a lot of resources and he HAS to do damage with it. if u scout it and deny it somehow, u are at the advantage in that game.
edit: lost temple is the first custom game 1v1 map on the list, which means it constantly has games going. just join them until u are matched up against a terran and sooner rather thenlater u will get thor dropped. this is good practice.
or just downvote the map and say f u blizzard.
|
In the gsl fruitdealer anticipied that and researched overlord speed and ventral sacs and dropped roaches and zerlings to kill the thor. Then it served him the whole game into dropping banelings. Terran medivac costs 100 100, for 200/200 you can get speed+drops for all of your ovies si why not doing it
|
On November 22 2010 06:16 Goliath-sc wrote: In the gsl fruitdealer anticipied that and researched overlord speed and ventral sacs and dropped roaches and zerlings to kill the thor. Then it served him the whole game into dropping banelings. Terran medivac costs 100 100, for 200/200 you can get speed+drops for all of your ovies si why not doing it
Its a time issue, i find.
I basically loose to any thor drop - if you go quick expo into mutaling your spire arrives around the same time as the thor - which means you wouldnt have time to get a fast lair AND both overlord upgrades.
If you expect it, you can probably get lair even earlier, but certainly if you try and react to scouting a drop I dont think you can get them up in time.
|
On November 22 2010 06:16 Goliath-sc wrote: In the gsl fruitdealer anticipied that and researched overlord speed and ventral sacs and dropped roaches and zerlings to kill the thor. Then it served him the whole game into dropping banelings. Terran medivac costs 100 100, for 200/200 you can get speed+drops for all of your ovies si why not doing it
Yep That's also one way of doing it but FD "anticipated" the Thor drop. You can't anticipate that on every mu on Ladder.
But I guess the thing to note is, on LT more than any other map, scouting is crucial, saccing multiple ove might not be a bad idea to find out for sure what the T is going for. You got no room for error.
|
hmm well watching your replay, I thought you did alot of things right. the 3 spines was a good call although mighta been a bit much if u werent expecting a drop, if you make so many might as well have one rooted near the wall. But when he actualyl dropped the thors, you looked liek you panicked. you should have had another ovie there and another move towards it as soon as you saw the drop. Moving your other queen down and immediately starting another queen would have helped. once the 3 spines are rooted, with an ovie for sight and queens for healing you probably coulda held off until mutas came for clean up.
After your expo went down, woulda been nice to pressure him better, its true muta harrass was hard because he actually overspent on turrets i think. he also had no turrets at his expo, once ug et like a crit mass of mutas u can start hitting areas which only have 1 turret. you also saw his many rax so blings obviously good. your first atk was great even checking for detection with 1 roach. the 2nd engagement was terrible for you. Not just because you got caught off guard but u had no blings. Cant engage vs terran late game like that without power units like blings or infestors. your creep spread was non existant, i main terran so i cant speak for your larva injects, your map control earlier coulda been better for sure and with 3 spines maybe you coulda droned a bit harder.
If you want to talk about what aggression you coulda done. I think roach nydus woulda been very scary for the terran, plsu you can support with mutas and still get back in time to defend if he all ins. infestors woulda helped more than mass muta. you also didnt scout much after your mutas got shut down.
|
I think ventral sacs and roaches are the best solution. The spire can be sniped easily.
|
Thanks for all the responses!
Gas steal: Didn't think of it, very nice idea. (I sometimes do it, though) Downvoting: After all seems like the best solution (ratio).. (although I don't like running away) Rest: I didn't think of the drop, tbh. I know it's common, but I just didn't put any thoughts into my play. As I said, I'm pretty unexperienced. I think if I thought about that, I would have gotten roaches earlier and drop plus speed. Mutas was a bad decision, that's why I almost canceled the production of them. But he was able to keep up or with the expansions so I couldn't stand a chance. I felt I should have done some more damange with that first attack when he was getting up his expo. I knew it was attack time, but he ended up having more shit than me.. Also, I forgot to place the spines right.. If both of them were up in the right spot, I could have fended him off. He just outplayed me to sum it up. I am still on my way of improving. If someone feels like still contributing to this topic, he may do so, I'll keep checking this thread out.
Btw, I think the cliffs should be removed anyway, this is not SC1..
|
Dread this matchup on LT. I often go for 1 base muta play precisely because I hate it so much.
Other options include a baneling bust (he should have little army if he teched to a Thor drop), or an early doom drop of zerglings (something I'm currently testing)
|
How about expanding to an other start location ? Anyone here who has tried that out ? If he goes thor drop he is at a huge disadvantage, since he won't do any damage. Also, longer travel distances between bases favors Zerg rather than Terran. What do you think about this solution?
|
On November 23 2010 00:34 decaf wrote: How about expanding to an other start location ? Anyone here who has tried that out ? If he goes thor drop he is at a huge disadvantage, since he won't do any damage. Also, longer travel distances between bases favors Zerg rather than Terran. What do you think about this solution?
Which base do you have in mind? You can't take the gold and the "opposing" (sorry don\t know a better word) expansion for the same reason, so you have to take another main. Another main is almost impossible to defend.
I do a gas steal, and just prey that I find out what he is doing in time. If I see reapers/marauders/banshees/expansion, I know Ithe drop will be delayed or that he won't do it. If I keep being in the dark, I sac an overlord (sometimes 2) to see the medivac or armory.
If someone tells you beforehand he is going to do it, the best response is 2-3 spinecrawlers, drone hard ( he will invest a lot in it so any other form of aggresion is unlikely). Don't lose any overlords, because they are critical for sight and drop. Get ling speed just in case, second 100 gas for lair. Then go for roaches with drop and do a counterdrop when you cleaned it.
If I am in the dark I sometimes sac 2 ovies just to know what to do and prey that you do the right thing. Even though drop is good and you can incorparate it in your play, you don't want to spend the gas on it that early in the game.
|
Yes I was talking about taking a second main. It indeed would be very hard to defend, but chances are high he won't find out in time. Also a counter attack might be very strong when he is going for the attack. Research burry and burry all your drones when he is coming for your expo and attack his main. I might try this out next time. It sound pretty reasonable to me.
|
Roach drop works wonder for me. I think once you master it, LT isn't imbalanced anymore.
Basically, if i scout he isn't pushing with bio, I tech to lair as soon as possible, and then i launch the ventral sac along with a roach warren. Then, u sacrifice an ovie/poke ramp/whatever scout. If you confirm the drop, launch the pneumatic, if not, just cancel the ventral sacs and put a spire up, or whatever you want.
Usually, the thor comes when sacs are about 60/70% finished. 2 or 3 spines crawlers will buy you largely enough time for you to get him away. With a bit of luck, he will not be microing at the moment youll drop the roach, and you can 1shot or 2shot him depending of its life.
I just played this drop again, i can provide replay later if you like.
PS : downvoting wont help you become a better player :p
|
The cliff is difficult to deal with. I like to send an ovie up there early to spread creep in case. You didn't what you could. I've been doing mass ling/infestor vs thor make ups. Neural does a lot and lings/blings tear up SCVs/marines.
|
Yes, a replay would be really nice.
|
2 preemptively placed spine crawlers near the cliff plus an ovie and a couple of roaches will do. this beats me, im T >:D
|
|
Roach drops work wonders. Roach in general are good early unit in zvt they keep you safe and don't take alot of larva. I do regular 15 hatch/15 pool lair at first 100 gas on LT. Sure drop comes before drop tech is done, but you should have 8-10 roaches just walk up to the cliff and make thor pull back, then t has to drop mules/bring scvs to keep presure on while you drop tech is happily researching. Having drop tech is good surprisingly, most games i find myself not using it enough, but on LT being forced into it brings out interesting results.
|
|
|
|
|