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| Odds Canada. November 24 2010 07:13. Posts 692 | Profile # |
Veigar, the Tiny Master of Evil
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/J84cX.jpg)
Preface: I am not a high ELO player. In fact, I think I have less than 200 wins. That said, I do have significant experience with this type of game and with RTS in general -- I was the #1 player of Supreme Commander (1, the expansion, and 2) for an extended period of time, and reached a PSR of 1850 in HoN. I don't mean to stretch my epeen too much, I just don't like being ignored or scoffed at - I've got pretty good reasons for the way I build and would appreciate if folks would actually try this out before mocking.
Having played probably 40 or 50 games with this build now, I am extremely confident in it- particularly now that LoCicero seems to be quite addicted to it. If I can bait a post by him or another top player (after they try the build) in this thread on a possible way to improve the build, I gladly welcome it. It seems strong to the degree that once Flash is removed and this build becomes well known, Veigar will probably become at least tier 2.
There isn't a lot of leeway in most of the build components, and I will explain why as I go along. If someone comes up with a creative variation, I'd love to hear it - but it's probably better to play as I've outlined first a few times to get a feel for it.
The entire point of this build is to get an absurdly fast Locket (Target: 9 minutes. Anything less than 11 is acceptable, 12 is pushing it I think) and to completely take over the mid lane, denying their mid farm and in all likelihood killing him at least once. After you destroy their tower, push the rest of their team out of their lanes (hopefully by killing them) and deny them farm with your ridiculous bulk and poking power. You should be able to carry most low-elo games pretty hard, and from what I understand of what 5HITCOMBO and LoCicero have told me, this is very viable at high ELO play.
And so, building a better Veigar:
Summoner spells: Ghost/Teleport
Since the build centers around a fast Locket, you desperately need Teleport in order to quickly return to the lane after 2 specific blue pills: once to buy your Catalyst (or just health crystal if you do not yet have enough gold at the 4:30-5:00ish region and once to buy your Locket. It also gives you a significant amount of mobility to roll around the map and help both the sidelanes to dominate.
Ghost: Pretty much a gimme. You need an escape skill, Ghost > flash imoimoimo, and you can get the Ghost mastery without mucking with your masteries. It also helps turn you into a vicious tower-diving chasebot once you are done your Locket (and probably boots).
Masteries: 0/9/21
I will probably catch some flak for this, but it is not in the least bit optional.
1. 15% spell pen is way overrated. If you are hitting someone at any point for whom this makes a real difference to your damage, you are doing something wrong.
2. SoS is imba, and 100% necessary for this build.
Anyways, 3 armor 3 mres 3 SoS, 1 Tele, 1 Ghost, 2 regen etc, 1 in Greed is the only other major caveat to what you might expect. It does make a difference.
Runes
This is the first place where I feel you have a bit of wiggle room to suit the sort of game you're in, in terms of enemy champs and what ELO level it is.
For Low ELO (Stomp expected)
Quints: Avarice
Red: Magic Pen
Yellow: MP5plvl
Blue: MP5plvl
The Avarice Quints + Greed = an extra 240 gold by 10 minutes, which is HUUUUUUUUGE for this build. Probably a dozen times so far these have actually made the difference between me getting my locket and having to make another trip back. One of the few builds where I would actually advocate this. 2 sets of MP5/LVL runes is quite greedy, but does help you farm and stomp those low ELO games that much harder.
For High ELO (Trouble expected)
Quints: Flat Health
Red: Magic Pen
Yellow: Armor
Blue: MP5plvl
Pretty self explanatory. The health and armor provide an immense bonus to your 400-odd starting HP, and help you paint over that giant target on your back that says HARASS MEEEEE. You won't be able to use your Q every time it comes off CD until after you get your Locket, but that's alright as long as you can last hit- you'll make up for it later.
Skill Order: QEQWQR -> Max Q, level W. Learn to drop your bomb before you stun. If your lane opponent gets ludicrously fast merc treads, go ahead and level your stun.
Item Build
Start with a Sapphire Crystal. It gives you more mana, more mana regen (due to Veigar's passive), and SoS will bring you to 13 hp/5sec. Most importantly, it is a Locket component, meaning you only have to make 1850 more gold to win your lane.
Next item: Innervating Locket. Skip boots, it's seriously that important.
Then: Sorc Boots, DFG, Rylai's, Zhonya's. DFG gives you immense burst independent of your AP, which helps you get a couple early kills and snowball even harder. In pubstomps, I will often get a Mejai's after my sorc boots, but it is an extremely terrible idea in any sort of competitive game as Veigar snowballs hard enough as it is- and just needs his items.
Rylai's is next, because the HP it gives you in addition to that from Locket makes you nigh-unkillable if you're playing correctly. In addition, the insane slow added to your ridiculous Q on a short cooldown makes you an awesome chase hero on the level of Vladimir with the addition of your stun. You can pop an enemy hero with DFG, Q once or twice as they run away, and then hit them with your full combo (minus DFG of course) once they're low enough to kill.
Buy blue pots and wards whenever and wherever you can. After Locket, Veigar is not terribly item dependent.
Playstyle
SOLO MID, NOT OPTIONAL.
Before you get your Locket: play like a big chocolate slut. If possible, completely ignore your opponent and just last hit, harass with autoattack if you feel the need. The much safer play, however, is to just harass with your Q (less mana intensive than your combo) and last hit with your autoattack. You can make up the difference later.
Usually, I play as greedily as possible unless and until my opponent proves that they are determined to push me out of the lane. Usually by then I have my Catalyst and can afford the mana to harass with Q to try to keep them off my back. Be good at last hitting. You cannot afford to miss very many creeps.
Your tower will almost inevitably take some damage at this stage (usually about 1/3 for me) because you simply don't have the power yet to push it back. It's OK, just be good at last hitting under the tower.
At 4:30-6:00, blue pill and buy your health crystal or Catalyst. Teleport back to lane, continue your farm.
When Teleport CD comes back up, if you have enough gold to buy your Locket, do it immediately. If have enough gold for boots as well, get them. If you don't, but you have enough for a ward or two, go ahead and get that. You will need them. If you don't have enough gold for Locket, you are probably doing something wrong, but it is likely not a huge deal. Just wait the extra 30 seconds. Teleport back to the lane, and TAKE OVER.
The +430hp from Locket, and the approximately 80hp/5s you gain (not counting the bonus you get from SoS off of the Mana component) while you last hit/harass with Q every time it's off CD means that you really do not give a fuck about just about anything. Do not overextend, as you can still get ganked by their jungler, but any sort of harass from the opponent or his creeps is now literally nothing to you. Even his tower is really a non-concern, especially if you took Armor yellow runes.
The first couple minutes after you get your Locket are the greatest, and most hilarious seconds of the game as your opponent is scratching his head at your infinite quantities of HP and mana, and frustrated that he can't even come close to the lane. If he does, pop him with Q. If he persists, pop him with Q again because you are TANK VEIGAR and he needs to get the fuck off your lawn. If your opponent ever goes below something like 500 HP and comes remotely close to you, pop ghost, hit him with your full combo + ult. He will usually live with about 60 hp, which is OK, because you can chase him right under and even through his goddamn tower and hit him again with your Q for the kill.
If you are playing properly, your opponent will either die or have to blue pill. When he does, push the lane and do damage to his tower. Be careful of the enemy jungler, especially if your opponent seems to be taking an unusually long time to return to the lane. When he does return, go back to your tower, blue pill, buy your sorc boots, TP back in, and finish the job on his tower. With your sorc boots, your power is practically doubled again due to the mobility and spell pen, and you should have no trouble killing the enemy tower, barring teamfights and other bullshit that may find their way to the mid.
After this, play Veigar like you would normally play Veigar, but more aggressively. Roam the map pushing lanes and looking for kills. Buy wards. Buy blue pots. Initiate teamfights with your insane stun. Keep in mind that the regen from Locket means that you practically never have to return to base, but you probably should anyways every time your TP is up anyways to buy. Because of your considerable bulk, do not be afraid of towerdiving to get a kill or two. Poke constantly. KS like a whore because you get +5AP from every kill. Basically be a big (lol) blue bully, and punish enemies for being alone, and especially for being low health or squishy. If there is a Lux on the enemy team, laugh your ass off because you are going to kill her over and over again.
Buffs
Let your jungler take the first 2 blue buffs, but ask for the 3rd one. The 24% CDR + the 6% from your masteries and 10% from Locket means you're maxed. Even more mana never hurts either.
Further reading: None. Just ask Q's, and I will do my best to answer.
Request vouch from Loci/5HIT/others I played with last night. =P
Oh, just remembered: IGN Lokan if you want a game.Last edit: 2010-11-26 09:41:12 |
| | Skollar.172. Plat level currently. Would love more practice partners, add me, let's play! |
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| Niton United States. November 24 2010 07:30. Posts 1497 | Profile Blog # |
| Plug: Reginald playing Locket Veigar right now on the SoloMid [url=http://www.own3d.tv/live/2860[/url] stream. |
| | tree.hugger: Coming off of [(T)fantasy v. (T)Really] into [(T)Barracks v. (T)MVP] is like coming out of Manhattan into New Jersey. You just have to speed up and ignore it. |
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| Odds Canada. November 24 2010 07:33. Posts 692 | Profile # |
| Jesus Christ, LoCi must have spread this around already. |
| | Skollar.172. Plat level currently. Would love more practice partners, add me, let's play! |
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| TheGreenMachine United States. November 24 2010 07:36. Posts 693 | Profile # |
I played a ton of veigar and I usually go glass cannon insta-kill enemy carry build but this sounds interesting...
I will have to try it out
edit: watched the stream and you can tell within 30 seconds he doesnt play veigar... misses 90% of his W's. I missed the early game but mid game he still has pretty meager survivability with the locket.Last edit: 2010-11-24 07:45:16 |
| | Don't forget to get everyone you know to play HOTS so this game we love called Starcraft will live on. Every little bit helps. ^^ |
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| ZERG_RUSSIAN November 24 2010 07:37. Posts 5103 | Profile Blog # |
| Locket Veigar is fucking unkillable. I was raping him as Corki and thought to myself "don't have to dive for the kill, just keep denying him when he comes back" and all of a sudden he shows up with a locket and I can't harass him anymore??? |
| | The Real 5HITCOMBO (rather jungle any day 420 noscope mlg plays yolo blaze it) |
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| Odds Canada. November 24 2010 07:37. Posts 692 | Profile # |
On November 24 2010 07:36 TheGreenMachine wrote:
I played a ton of veigar and I usually go glass cannon insta-kill enemy carry build but this sounds interesting...
I will have to try it out
You can still usually instantly kill the enemy carry, but this way his team can't instantly kill you right afterwards. 
On November 24 2010 07:37 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Locket Veigar is fucking unkillable. I was raping him as Corki and thought to myself "don't have to dive for the kill, just keep denying him when he comes back" and all of a sudden he shows up with a locket and I can't harass him anymore???
HOW MAD? :DLast edit: 2010-11-24 07:38:59 |
| | Skollar.172. Plat level currently. Would love more practice partners, add me, let's play! |
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| xDaunt United States. November 24 2010 07:37. Posts 4418 | Profile # |
You forgot the most important part: get the Veigar Greybeard skin.
Seriously though, this locket first approach is an awesome idea. Veigar's early game is TERRRRIBLE, and this should help a lot.
My only concern: are you still able to do enough damage during the early/mid game? You're AP is going to be rather low for some time.
I'll definitely try this out. |
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| Odds Canada. November 24 2010 07:41. Posts 692 | Profile # |
On November 24 2010 07:37 xDaunt wrote:
You forgot the most important part: get the Veigar Greybeard skin.
Indeed. I do use this skin, but I forgot to mention it in the guide. =P
My only concern: are you still able to do enough damage during the early/mid game? You're AP is going to be rather low for some time.
Absolutely. The way it tends to work out, the extra poke damage you are able to do from the extra non-retaliable Q's more than makes up for any damage lost from the fairly negligible amount of AP lost. Plus, you are able to farm much more easily after you get your Locket, and it thus synergizes with your Q's passive and lets you gain AP that way. |
| | Skollar.172. Plat level currently. Would love more practice partners, add me, let's play! |
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| spinesheath Germany. November 24 2010 07:45. Posts 5157 | Profile Blog # |
You are starting Mana Crystal + Avarice Quints = 0 HP? I can't imagine you surviving that against Flash/Cleanse/stun/slow/gank. Not even in mid, unless the lane is pushed into a nice and convenient place right next to your tower at all times. Yeah with godlike reaction you might be able to Event Horizon into safety occasionally.
I even doubt you can get in to lasthit against a variety of enemies with such low HP.
(since you're saying this is for low elo, we may assume that the Veigar player isn't all that awesome either...)Last edit: 2010-11-24 07:47:28 |
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| Odds Canada. November 24 2010 07:51. Posts 692 | Profile # |
On November 24 2010 07:45 spinesheath wrote:
You are starting Mana Crystal + Avarice Quints = 0 HP? I can't imagine you surviving that against Flash/Cleanse/stun/slow/gank. Not even in mid, unless the lane is pushed into a nice and convenient place right next to your tower at all times. Yeah with godlike reaction you might be able to Event Horizon into safety occasionally.
I even doubt you can get in to lasthit against a variety of enemies with such low HP.
(since you're saying this is for low elo, we may assume that the Veigar player isn't all that awesome either...)
That is why that build is only to be used for games that you expect to completely stomp because your opponents are bad. Obviously (and as I said in the guide), Flat HP Quints and Armor yellows are the way to go if the enemy players are not braindead.Last edit: 2010-11-24 07:51:38 |
| | Skollar.172. Plat level currently. Would love more practice partners, add me, let's play! |
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| spinesheath Germany. November 24 2010 07:57. Posts 5157 | Profile Blog # |
If you expect a complete stomp, then why not just go AP or MPen to improve your ability to kill quickly (you should decide the game well before 15 minutes, which is about the time when Avarice Quints start to kick in)? Or HP to improve your ability to towerdive for early kills or to be able to 1vMany better?
If you expect to end the game quickly, Avarice Quints are not really helpful.
Not to mention it's kinda useless to provide a rune setup for games where rune setups don't matter. |
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| Odds Canada. November 24 2010 07:59. Posts 692 | Profile # |
Welp, Regi says he invented this build and kicked me off his stream. I have no further use for that cunt.
On November 24 2010 07:57 spinesheath wrote:
If you expect a complete stomp, then why not just go AP or MPen to improve your ability to kill quickly (you should decide the game well before 15 minutes, which is about the time when Avarice Quints start to kick in)? Or HP to improve your ability to towerdive for early kills or to be able to 1vMany better?
If you expect to end the game quickly, Avarice Quints are not really helpful.
Not to mention it's kinda useless to provide a rune setup for games where rune setups don't matter.
The avarice quints kick in by letting you get your Locket 1 minute quicker, which makes an enormous difference to all of the above. If you don't like em, don't use em- I prefer HP anyway.Last edit: 2010-11-24 08:00:39 |
| | Skollar.172. Plat level currently. Would love more practice partners, add me, let's play! |
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| crate United States. November 24 2010 08:09. Posts 1921 | Profile Blog # |
Small note: you actually regen less mp5 at a given flat amount of mana used if you start with a sapphire crystal compared to nothing. Veigar's passive works like Chalice--it only boosts the mp5 you already have by some percentage (so if you're at 0 mana, you regen mp 150% as fast as you would at full mana).
(At least, I assume it works like Chalice. I don't own Veigar to test, but Chalice definitely works as I said and Veigar's passive has the same wording so I assume that's how it works also).
(You regen less because your missing mana percent is smaller with the sapphire crystal. This of course doesn't actually probably matter much in practice since you still have the larger mana pool and if you want more mana that builds toward Locket you don't really have another choice for a starting item (unless you want to start 2x Faerie Charm I guess), but I figure you may as well have the information in your OP correct).
That said I think the idea of Locket on Veigar is pretty interesting and seems to make sense. |
| | We did. You did. Yes we can. No. || http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/players/crate.html || twitch.tv/crate3333 |
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| Odds Canada. November 24 2010 08:16. Posts 692 | Profile # |
On November 24 2010 08:09 crate wrote:
Small note: you actually regen less mp5 at a given flat amount of mana used if you start with a sapphire crystal compared to nothing. Veigar's passive works like Chalice--it only boosts the mp5 you already have by some percentage (so if you're at 0 mana, you regen mp 150% as fast as you would at full mana).
(At least, I assume it works like Chalice. I don't own Veigar to test, but Chalice definitely works as I said and Veigar's passive has the same wording so I assume that's how it works also).
(You regen less because your missing mana percent is smaller with the sapphire crystal. This of course doesn't actually probably matter much in practice since you still have the larger mana pool and if you want more mana that builds toward Locket you don't really have another choice for a starting item (unless you want to start 2x Faerie Charm I guess), but I figure you may as well have the information in your OP correct).
You have it backwards I think.
Assume you start with 200 mana
At 50 mana, you are at 25% of your mana bar (75% missing), and will, from Veigar's passive, gain an extra 37.5% regen (0.5 * (100-25=75%)
Now if you have mana crystal, if you have 50 mana, you will be at 12.5% of your mana bar (87.5% missing) and will gain (0.5 * 87.5) = 43.75% bonus regen. It's not a big difference in any case, but it does help. |
| | Skollar.172. Plat level currently. Would love more practice partners, add me, let's play! |
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| crate United States. November 24 2010 08:24. Posts 1921 | Profile Blog # |
At 50 mana, you are at 25% of your mana bar (75% missing), and will, from Veigar's passive, gain an extra 37.5% regen (0.5 * (100-25=75%)
Now if you have mana crystal, if you have 50 mana, you will be at 12.5% of your mana bar (87.5% missing) and will gain (0.5 * 87.5) = 43.75% bonus regen. It's not a big difference in any case, but it does help.
In the second case you've used 200 more mana; my point was that after you've used 200 mana in either case you have more mp5 without the crystal. I suppose you were merely misleading--my assumption was that you meant you'd get more mp5 at the same flat mana usage, which as I said is untrue--instead of actually wrong, but I'd clear it up anyway. |
| | We did. You did. Yes we can. No. || http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/players/crate.html || twitch.tv/crate3333 |
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| xDaunt United States. November 24 2010 08:28. Posts 4418 | Profile # |
On November 24 2010 07:59 Odds wrote:
Welp, Regi says he invented this build and kicked me off his stream. I have no further use for that cunt.
Watching his stream now. The guy is such a douche.
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| Odds Canada. November 24 2010 08:32. Posts 692 | Profile # |
I watched the stream for a bit, but didn't have sound, so I have no idea what comments he was making in voice chat.
On November 24 2010 08:24 crate wrote:
Show nested quote +At 50 mana, you are at 25% of your mana bar (75% missing), and will, from Veigar's passive, gain an extra 37.5% regen (0.5 * (100-25=75%)
Now if you have mana crystal, if you have 50 mana, you will be at 12.5% of your mana bar (87.5% missing) and will gain (0.5 * 87.5) = 43.75% bonus regen. It's not a big difference in any case, but it does help.
In the second case you've used 200 more mana; my point was that after you've used 200 mana in either case you have more mp5 without the crystal. I suppose you were merely misleading--my assumption was that you meant you'd get more mp5 at the same flat mana usage, which as I said is untrue--instead of actually wrong, but I'd clear it up anyway.
Ah, I see- I misread you. Sorry about that.
I think my definition is more relevant anyways, because you tend to burn through your mana really fast as V. =P |
| | Skollar.172. Plat level currently. Would love more practice partners, add me, let's play! |
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| xDaunt United States. November 24 2010 13:21. Posts 4418 | Profile # |
| Tried the build out a couple times. I definitely like it. The staying power that the locket gives Veigar is incredible. It did take a little bit of adjustment to deal with the lower initial damage (I was more of a glass cannon Veigar player). |
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| jtype England. November 25 2010 02:21. Posts 1746 | Profile Blog # |
I must say, after reading this, I had to try it out immediately. It's so fun! It allows Veigar to get just that little bit closer to team fights in the mid-game; enough to be a bit more useful with his stun and nukes, rather than dancing around the edges waiting for enemies to fall into bad positions.
Also, the fact that you've got so much staying power in the early-mid game, means that farming up is so so easy. I'm easily getting at least 230-240 CS per game (unranked) with him now, regardless of whether we win or lose. |
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 Bazhi United States. November 25 2010 03:48. Posts 11 | Profile # |
| 9-1-0 my first time with this build. |
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