Website Feedback
Closed Threads
IRC Chat
irc.quakenet.org #teamliquid
IRC Web ClientTeamSpeak 3 (105 users) | |
|
| Mogwai United States. March 12 2011 01:57. Posts 8015 | Profile Blog # |
| HP, Mana, letting your damage come in predictable bursts, slow proc, constant movespeed... Triforce is a very high utility item that brings a lot of intangibles to the table. I'm not trying to discredit your numbers, but they're pretty much true on everyone (from a DPS perspective, Triforce will never look optimal), yet plenty of characters still like to build Triforce and there is reasoning behind this. |
| | mogwaismusings.wordpress.com |
|
|
| necrosed Brazil. March 12 2011 02:20. Posts 430 | Profile # |
Well, my reasoning is pretty simple. If you get the most cost-beneficial items based on what they do, Trinity Force will always suck.
I mean, if you want DPS and health, You'd get more if you bought Black Cleaver and a Giant's Belt than if you spend all the money on Trinity force. The same is true for every other stat.
I just don't like expending 4k on little bonuses. If you really want to push it, you get +ms +as +crit +CDR +decent DPS on youmuus and the other 1.4k gold you can spend on even better items.
Particularly, I don't like having all these small bonuses if I can deny one or two of them to get two pretty big and decent.
Also, if you want to see how fast you can go to 1k from DPS, well... 1kHealth/Damage per second = Health Second per damage. The results would be the same, with the exception that Black Cleaver and Trinity Force would be a tad better. |
| | League of Legends Coach of team paiN Gaming |
|
|
 TheYango United States. March 12 2011 02:39. Posts 15761 | Profile # |
On March 12 2011 02:20 necrosed wrote:
I mean, if you want DPS and health, You'd get more if you bought Black Cleaver and a Giant's Belt than if you spend all the money on Trinity force. The same is true for every other stat.
Which is exactly why Trinity Force is good on champs that make use of most of the Triforce stats and not just one or two.
The incremental value of the Triforce recipe is extremely good. For 300g, you get 12 AD, 5 AP, 10% ASpd, 5% Crit, 4% MS, 25 HP, and the upgrades to the Sheen and Phage passives. Hell, the gold value for just the items you can compare to base stats is already 1115 gold (ignoring the movespeed and 2 passive upgrades, which are certainly worth at least a couple hundred more gold). It then comes down to whether you consider the Triforce components good value. The only questionable one is Sheen, since the AP doesn't go anywhere, and even then, Trundle makes good use of the passive and the mana.Last edit: 2011-03-12 02:40:23 |
| | Tongfu icon until xiao8's back on a ganker role. |
|
|
| Zapperkhan United States. March 12 2011 02:42. Posts 428 | Profile # |
On March 12 2011 02:20 necrosed wrote:
Also, if you want to see how fast you can go to 1k from DPS, well... 1kHealth/Damage per second = Health Second per damage. The results would be the same, with the exception that Black Cleaver and Trinity Force would be a tad better.
That's implying damage is constant. In reality it isn't specially with a bursty proc like sheen. The reason for simplifying it to dps is to try to make it even. In reality it's not. Sure that calculation will give you a ballpark figure. Because on most AD champs if you time 2 seconds a sheen will almost win out in a true calculation of dmg. But the DPS could still be lower. Which is why something like fastest time to get to 1k or 2k dmg is more useful. You even state at with the last sentence it's not the best way to do it.
Maybe I need to explain it a bit better. Going through an optimal rotation, which items would burn someone the fastest. DPS only gives an average. Due to dmg spikes from certain items using those spike highs to your advantage you can have a technical higher dps if you can kill them on a high dmg proc rather than some median DPS number.Last edit: 2011-03-12 02:55:39 |
|
|
| gtrsrs United States. March 12 2011 02:45. Posts 4414 | Profile # |
i don't know why you're still debating triforce on trundle
dontmashme says get wriggles->triforce, sheen first, so that's what you do |
| | TL-LoL's #1 Ahri, even better than Soloside. www.velocityesports.com |
|
|
| TheYango United States. March 12 2011 02:47. Posts 15761 | Profile # |
On March 12 2011 02:45 gtrsrs wrote:
i don't know why you're still debating triforce on trundle
dontmashme says get wriggles->triforce, sheen first, so that's what you do
If we're quoting high Elo players as being authoritative, it's also worth noting that TheOddOne has also done the same thing in every ESL game where I've seen him pick Trundle. |
| | Tongfu icon until xiao8's back on a ganker role. |
|
|
| necrosed Brazil. March 12 2011 03:01. Posts 430 | Profile # |
You don't need the AP and the mana is negligible. Trundle's mana costs are very low that with base regen +SS +Meditation you fuel all your needs of mana.
Also, you already get diminishing returns on the movespeed bonus since you have decent base MS +MS from utility AND ms from W.
So what we're really looking at is crit damage, burst from Sheen, attack speed, health bonus and slow. The crit, damage, attack speed and burst were taken into consideration already on the DPS calculations, so what stays in question is pahge's slow and +health.
Like I said, you get better bonuses from having a Black Cleaver+Giant's Belt, that can be turned later into a frozen mallet. Will you miss the slow? I don't think you should, since you have mad MS from W and crazy slow+pathblocker on E. Chasing isn't exactly a problem for trundle.
I respect DontMashMe's and OddOne's opinions as players, but if you don't bring better reasoning than "he said so" it's really not a good piece of advice. Maybe they really haven't put much thought on it or haven't stopped to think about it. Stonewall008's goes for Brutalizer, Phage and Youmuu's, for instance, which is in concordance with my opinion and calculations.
Like I said, in my opinion all those little extra bonuses are missable. The only good thing about Triforce is that it only takes one item slot.
-----
I prefer to use averages than to go for HP benchmarks, since it would be overly complicated to simulate something as spiky as Infinity Edge, but if you look closely, Trinity Force's "huge spike" does actually just a little bit more of damage than the others, and it's lower overrall damage would balance it towards the average result. Comparing to BC, the buffed damage deals 306 damage on the subject target. That's 306 damage every two seconds. Black Cleaver deals 152 damage per strike and in the time frame of two seconds, you have 3.2 attacks. Of course, the same is for Trinity Force, but from these 3.2 attacks, one would be buffed (306 damage) and two would be 123 damage hits. In those two seconds, Black Cleaver does ~456 damage and Trinity Force does 552. It's a difference that closes faster.
Lets do it, then:
Black Cleaver hits: It takes 6,86 hits to reach the 1K threshold. 124+136+4,86*152. Lets round up to 7, that way you will give 1020 damage in 4.36 seconds.
Trinity Force: Assuming you make your passive always proc on the 2 seconds, and you attack 1.602 times per second, then in four seconds you will have proced twice and had 6,4 attacks.
306+123+123+123+306+123 = 1104 damage in 6 attacks in a time interval of 3.74 seconds. It's really just one attack less. If you stretch it to more damage, Black Cleaver will surpass TF.
And remember that's assuming you mantain the TF bonus each 2 seconds, which is kinda difficlult for trundle, since you would have to stop attacking to do spell animations, so the real deal would be off some decent chunk of damage.
Zapper, I understand your concern with damage over time, but, as you seen, it's not really that big difference when you put the numbers. It takes one more attack off black cleaver to reach the 1k barrier than from Trinity Force, and it turns the tables after on higher damage benchmarks. If we were to put something with spike and reaching the 1k damage, then Trinity Force would be an interesting candidate, bu truly random and unreliable.Last edit: 2011-03-12 03:30:18 |
| | League of Legends Coach of team paiN Gaming |
|
|
| Juicyfruit Canada. March 12 2011 03:48. Posts 3477 | Profile # |
A few other things:
Trundle is never going to realistically farm up 1850g for a BF sword without saving up so much gold that his team loses unnecessary map control. Trundle needs to be buying oracles, wards, and all that good stuff. The pieces of triforce are very cheap and obtainable and each third of the triforce provides very respectable power boost. Black cleaver, to me, is entirely off the table as a core for trundle.
Ghostblade is nice but it provides comparatively less utility + it overlaps a lot more than what trundle already brings to the table than triforce (burst attack speed and mobility). Triforce keeps trundle consistently faster while not in contaminate.
The mana from sheen is not to be undervalued. . Contaminate is still a decently expensive skill and you'll be using it a lot. Last edit: 2011-03-12 03:51:25 |
| | Do not hate me because I am better than you. There are people better than me as well; go hate them. |
|
|
| gtrsrs United States. March 12 2011 04:09. Posts 4414 | Profile # |
On March 12 2011 03:01 necrosed wrote:
You don't need the AP and the mana is negligible. Trundle's mana costs are very low that with base regen +SS +Meditation you fuel all your needs of mana.
Also, you already get diminishing returns on the movespeed bonus since you have decent base MS +MS from utility AND ms from W.
So what we're really looking at is crit damage, burst from Sheen, attack speed, health bonus and slow. The crit, damage, attack speed and burst were taken into consideration already on the DPS calculations, so what stays in question is pahge's slow and +health.
Like I said, you get better bonuses from having a Black Cleaver+Giant's Belt, that can be turned later into a frozen mallet. Will you miss the slow? I don't think you should, since you have mad MS from W and crazy slow+pathblocker on E. Chasing isn't exactly a problem for trundle.
I respect DontMashMe's and OddOne's opinions as players, but if you don't bring better reasoning than "he said so" it's really not a good piece of advice. Maybe they really haven't put much thought on it or haven't stopped to think about it. Stonewall008's goes for Brutalizer, Phage and Youmuu's, for instance, which is in concordance with my opinion and calculations.
Like I said, in my opinion all those little extra bonuses are missable. The only good thing about Triforce is that it only takes one item slot.
you don't need the AP, true
the mana is negligible, false. 200 mana is like a 33% increase on trundle at level 13ish or whenever you get triforce
trundle's mana costs are low, true. with base regen + ss + meditation you fuel all your mana needs, false. you should give every blue after the first or second to your caster anyways.
diminishing returns from movespeed bonus, false. in fact i would say movespeed quints + triforce on trundle are what MAKE him such a threat (dontmashme runs exp quints though) because his mobility in the jungle is unparalleled by anyone but rammus and sometimes shaco. the diminishing returns on the W movespeed bonus is true but W isn't always on, unlike triforce's movespeed bonus
ironically, crit damage is the LAST thing that trundle needs from triforce (besides the ap). your job is to ult the tank, stick to a carry and keep their attack down with Q and their speed down with pillar and triforce procs, not to instagib them with massive attack damage.
i used to be a proponent of cleaver on irelia because i knew she could get multiple hits on people because of her slow and i thought it would wreck. i did the math and it made sense. but it failed pretty hard. then people were saying do triforce on her and i was like nahhhh and here it is, the best build in the game soo...
not to mention triforce is great for demolishing towers because you can throwdown W and attack for triforce proc->attack->instaQ for a double hit + triforce proc->attack a creep so your Q goes on cooldown->pillar and attack for triforce proc->attack->instaQ rinse and repeat |
| | TL-LoL's #1 Ahri, even better than Soloside. www.velocityesports.com |
|
|
| gtrsrs United States. March 12 2011 04:21. Posts 4414 | Profile # |
On March 12 2011 03:48 Juicyfruit wrote:
A few other things:
Trundle is never going to realistically farm up 1850g for a BF sword without saving up so much gold that his team loses unnecessary map control. Trundle needs to be buying oracles, wards, and all that good stuff. The pieces of triforce are very cheap and obtainable and each third of the triforce provides very respectable power boost. Black cleaver, to me, is entirely off the table as a core for trundle.
Ghostblade is nice but it provides comparatively less utility + it overlaps a lot more than what trundle already brings to the table than triforce (burst attack speed and mobility). Triforce keeps trundle consistently faster while not in contaminate.
The mana from sheen is not to be undervalued. . Contaminate is still a decently expensive skill and you'll be using it a lot.
oh yeah i meant to write all this in my post too
ideally your backs in the jungle are
1) after three camps or after an entire clear, buying either long sword and boots, or madreds, or wriggles if you got a kill, and a pink for dragon
2) just before/after first dragon fight, where you have to look at how your farm is (did you cover a lane and get good gold income? did you get some kills? did your team get dragon?) and at BEST, ABSOLUTE BEST if you got several kills and dragon, you'll have about 1500-2100 gold at this point. usually here is where you buy your sheen, some wards, pots, maybe upgrade to mercs
3) after a couple towers have been taken and it's time to group. again, at best you're gonna have about 1600 gold here, perfect time to buy another component for triforce or complete triforce if you did well early
here's what you need to consider for a BF sword purchase: are you able to help your team and get kills without outputting a lot of damage (only having wriggles)? the answer with trundle is yes, because your ult does true damage and pillar does no damage. therefore, is a BF sword going to help you help your team? no, because it won't increase your ult damage or reduction, nor will it increase the slow or utility of pillar. will a zeal help you get around the map faster and gank more? yes. will a phage proc a slow that might seal the deal on a kill and give you enough HP to lead the charge? yes. are they both cheaper than BF sword? yes.
if the problem of your ganks is that your team is all tanks and you NEED damage, then i'd consider the BF sword. but in a balanced team comp, the utility of triforce trumps a bit of extra damage every time |
| | TL-LoL's #1 Ahri, even better than Soloside. www.velocityesports.com |
|
|
| gtrsrs United States. March 12 2011 04:23. Posts 4414 | Profile # |
| also i had a long talk about trundle with dontmashme and he's considering toying with BR in his trundle build as the other damage item but he hasn't found a comfortable way of putting it in there yet, and definitely not before triforce... and after you need tank items so yeah... |
| | TL-LoL's #1 Ahri, even better than Soloside. www.velocityesports.com |
|
|
| Zapperkhan United States. March 12 2011 04:30. Posts 428 | Profile # |
On March 12 2011 03:01 necrosed wrote:
Zapper, I understand your concern with damage over time, but, as you seen, it's not really that big difference when you put the numbers. It takes one more attack off black cleaver to reach the 1k barrier than from Trinity Force, and it turns the tables after on higher damage benchmarks. If we were to put something with spike and reaching the 1k damage, then Trinity Force would be an interesting candidate, bu truly random and unreliable.
Understandable. Would be neat if someone wrote a simulation tool to crunch say 500 or so iterations to help smooth out things like IE with crits. Coming from WoW and min maxing gear from a simulator, looking at dps #s on inconsistent damage just irked me. Sorry if it looked like I was being brash. I'm loving the discussion going on. Specially the one adding ad runes to shave off time on wraiths.Last edit: 2011-03-12 04:31:57 |
|
|
| necrosed Brazil. March 12 2011 05:14. Posts 430 | Profile # |
| Yes, farming that BF sword sucks. I've been going for Brutalizer, Phage, Youmuus, Tank. |
| | League of Legends Coach of team paiN Gaming |
|
|
| gtrsrs United States. March 12 2011 09:49. Posts 4414 | Profile # |
after wriggle triforce banshee i'm starting to like warmogs. you'll get infinite armor and MR from your ult... having double warmogs on top of that gives you like 7k HP with 300 armor and MR. it's pretty fucking hilarious
RIP rammus |
| | TL-LoL's #1 Ahri, even better than Soloside. www.velocityesports.com |
|
|
 NeoIllusions United States. March 12 2011 15:31. Posts 17926 | Profile Blog # |
Rammus is still top notch. dat taunt
Trundle has strengths but that doesn't diminish powerball/taunt. |
| | For the Glory that is TeamLiquid (-9 | 155) | Twitter: @NeoIllusions | Jinteki |
|
|
| Juicyfruit Canada. March 12 2011 16:27. Posts 3477 | Profile # |
| I think what he meant is that Trundle simply hard-counters Rammus in teamfights. |
| | Do not hate me because I am better than you. There are people better than me as well; go hate them. |
|
|
 Brees Marshall Islands. March 12 2011 16:37. Posts 2282 | Profile # |
just build your wriggles, then pick youmuu or tri-force after buying negatron. Then rest tank gear.
build ends up looking like
cloth armor + 5hp
razors + boots
wriggles + merc treads + negatron
wriggles + merc treads + negatron + triforce -OR- ghostblade
wriggles + merc treads + banshee veil + triforce -OR- ghostblade + randuin's
finish with 6th item of your choice depending on game |
| |
|
| Juicyfruit Canada. March 12 2011 16:41. Posts 3477 | Profile # |
Do you do a sustained jungling route? If nothing unusual happens I'll usually do blue -> wolves -> wraith -> twins -> b -> boots and then red -> gankathon.
You can definitely grab red first and then gank... BUT I think his ganking with red buff is a lot stronger with boots
I'll then do wriggles, merc treads, and if I get a kill or they ward too much I'll get an oracle. Last edit: 2011-03-12 16:44:00 |
| | Do not hate me because I am better than you. There are people better than me as well; go hate them. |
|
|
| Brees Marshall Islands. March 12 2011 16:45. Posts 2282 | Profile # |
| yea if your an experienced trundle player, oracle is another great pickup, just like on shaco as hes very hard to catch once you get the hang of your limits |
| |
|
| necrosed Brazil. March 12 2011 21:43. Posts 430 | Profile # |
| I generally do either the Blue Buff to red buff cleanup run if circunstances allow me to, go b after dual golems/lizard and buy boots and wards. I also do the wraith jack 5HITCOMBO route when I feel confortable enough of walking there. My usage of the sustained route is when I feel I might get invaded by the enemy. so I wipe the most camps. If I notice he warded my jungle, I try to setup a gank inside my jungle with my allies, baiting them. |
| | League of Legends Coach of team paiN Gaming |
|
|
| Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 Next All | |
|
|
|
| |
|
Sidebar Settings...
|
Store
