The strongest evidence by far for me are the trees and bushes behind you after you wake from being hit by harbingers beam. Very clearly those weren't there before and you are in the center of London so either they made some ridiculous mistake and randomly added trees + bushes into their final scene or they are there for a reason.
But I really wonder if Bioware would have the guts to take such a big risk and try such an unconventienal idea with a franchise this important.
I guess we will know once the first DLC is released.
I dont care what anyone says, after seeing that theory-video about Shepard indoctrination, I view that as the true ending. In my opinion this is probably the best ending in a game I've ever played, no matter if this was Bioware's "true" intentions or not.
On March 23 2012 10:52 Hoban wrote: That is the cool thing about it though, that it isn't clear at all. You actually have to think about the scene and wonder wtf is going on instead of having someone deliberately tell you "oh yea, they are trying to indoctrinate you". Idk maybe it is just me but it feels rare nowadays where a game makes you think instead of spoon-feeding you the plot.
I agree completely with this. Once I beat the game I sat down while my mind blew.
I dont think there's anything better in a game, than having to THINK to understand it. (Granted this really IS the "right" thought behind the ending)
kish
On_Slaught United States. March 23 2012 12:53. Posts 8157
Even if the indoctrination theory was true, it doesn't change the terrible stuff about the Normandy randomly running away and crashing on some random planet with people who couldn't have been on the ship.
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Ansinjunger United States. March 23 2012 13:06. Posts 1943
On March 23 2012 12:43 Mig wrote: The strongest evidence by far for me are the trees and bushes behind you after you wake from being hit by harbingers beam. Very clearly those weren't there before and you are in the center of London so either they made some ridiculous mistake and randomly added trees + bushes into their final scene or they are there for a reason.
But I really wonder if Bioware would have the guts to take such a big risk and try such an unconventienal idea with a franchise this important.
I guess we will know once the first DLC is released.
Technically, the first DLC was already released. And it's amazing how small that mess seems now. I'm not without hope though. I like indoc theory, and I'm sure Bioware can do some things with that and better things we haven't thought of. Good criticism can drive better ideas.
Mig United States. March 23 2012 13:06. Posts 3534
On March 23 2012 12:53 On_Slaught wrote: Even if the indoctrination theory was true, it doesn't change the terrible stuff about the Normandy randomly running away and crashing on some random planet with people who couldn't have been on the ship.
If the indoctrination theory is true then nothing you saw after being hit by Harbinger, including the scene with the Normandy, actually happened.
On March 23 2012 12:43 Mig wrote: The strongest evidence by far for me are the trees and bushes behind you after you wake from being hit by harbingers beam. Very clearly those weren't there before and you are in the center of London so either they made some ridiculous mistake and randomly added trees + bushes into their final scene or they are there for a reason.
But I really wonder if Bioware would have the guts to take such a big risk and try such an unconventienal idea with a franchise this important.
I guess we will know once the first DLC is released.
Bioware officially (by different people, and in different ways) admitted they fucked up (and/or the current ending is intended as-is, depending on how you want to look at it). Those trees were most probably just added for atmosphere.
That said I hope we do get to see the indoctrination DLC. I mean really. Add some closure and tell me what happens to all dem nice purty slaves I have been keeping aboard mah Normandy.
On March 23 2012 12:43 Mig wrote: The strongest evidence by far for me are the trees and bushes behind you after you wake from being hit by harbingers beam. Very clearly those weren't there before and you are in the center of London so either they made some ridiculous mistake and randomly added trees + bushes into their final scene or they are there for a reason.
But I really wonder if Bioware would have the guts to take such a big risk and try such an unconventienal idea with a franchise this important.
I guess we will know once the first DLC is released.
Bioware officially (by different people, and in different ways) admitted they fucked up (and/or the current ending is intended as-is, depending on how you want to look at it). Those trees were most probably just added for atmosphere.
That said I hope we do get to see the indoctrination DLC. I mean really. Add some closure and tell me what happens to all dem nice purty slaves I have been keeping aboard mah Normandy.
Bio ware didnt say the fucked up, they just saw there fans were dissatisfied and decided to aim to satisfy them. Also bushes in a decrepid wasteland added for just atmostphere? Meh.
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erin[go]bragh United States. March 23 2012 13:44. Posts 746
So, a little off topic from the current direction the thread is going, but did Bioware ever respond to the fact that it was proven that the Prothean DLC data was already on the disk despite them saying that it wasn't done in time?
I'm kind of curious. They are probably super happy the backlash from the ending is making everyone forget the day 1 dlc shenanigans.
Also, I think the indoctrination theory holds a lot of merit. Much of what is used can be called coincidence, but theres a large number of clues, at which point coincidence becomes less and less likely. They might not have expected such a huge backlash from the ending, but they might have even planned on it. "Any publicity is good publicity." The ending has garnered such enormous amounts of online discussion that any DLC that concerns the ending at all is guaranteed to do (sell? ) extremely well, as well as bring lots of attention to the game itself.
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mastergriggy United States. March 23 2012 13:47. Posts 1297
On March 23 2012 12:53 On_Slaught wrote: Even if the indoctrination theory was true, it doesn't change the terrible stuff about the Normandy randomly running away and crashing on some random planet with people who couldn't have been on the ship.
If Indoctrination theory is true, then the whole story line after Shepard is hit by the laser never happened, but is just an illusion in his head as he struggles to fight indoctrination against the reapers.
On March 23 2012 12:53 On_Slaught wrote: Even if the indoctrination theory was true, it doesn't change the terrible stuff about the Normandy randomly running away and crashing on some random planet with people who couldn't have been on the ship.
If the indoctrination theory is true then nothing you saw after being hit by Harbinger, including the scene with the Normandy, actually happened.
...Which means it's not an ending. CONGRATULATIONS! You've successfuly fought off the indoctrination, the game is over!!! Nevermind about what happens next, your friends, the crew, the rest of earth, the reapers... who needs any answers....
" i havent been playin sc2 but i woke up w/ a boner and i really had to pee... and my crisis management and micro was really something to behold. it inspired me to play some games today" -Liquid'Tyler
Whitewing United States. March 23 2012 15:10. Posts 5748
On March 23 2012 12:53 On_Slaught wrote: Even if the indoctrination theory was true, it doesn't change the terrible stuff about the Normandy randomly running away and crashing on some random planet with people who couldn't have been on the ship.
Part of the dream man, it occurs before you wake up, remember? =p
ThorZaIN is an android sent from the future to destroy everyone and everything with his super advanced mechanics and strategies. ~Chill
On March 23 2012 06:32 befek wrote: Have you guys seen this? MAJOR SPOILER/THEORY BOUT ENDINGS
If this turns out to be true bricks will be shat in quantities to be able to build a city from. And whether you believe it or not, whether it was intended or not, whether it is the truth or fanfiction, ask yourself: Wouldn't you want this to be true? You have the choice, you can believe it if you want. I choose to believe.
Whether it was their purpose or not (the evidence is overwhelming for "it was"), I think Bioware will miss an opportunity to save their entire franchise if they don't embrace this as canon.
As I see it, the "modified ending" could pick up after Shepard wards off their indoctrination attempt. Your squadmates pick you up out of the rubble, then you go and face Harbringer.
They pretty much have to do this. They have to shut up and take this indoctrination theory and adopt it, even if this wasn't their original plan for an ending. It's just too good to pass up. They've already seen how much of an outbreak they cause by a (seemingly) half-assed ending without any real closure.
Back in November, didn't a dev post/blog/interview or something mention that they were working on a way to have Shepard indoctrinated but were running into the problem of player choice conflicting with the in-game meaning of indoctrination?
"I walked through fire, and didn't get burned." Claire Bennet
This post is entirely story line spoilers covering all 3 Mass Effect games.
So I realised that in my discussions on endings in this thread where I was stating that the endings are identical I had assumed everyone understood the core issue I was getting at and never actually explained it so I figured I'd do so via demonstration.
100% Paragon. Zhu's Hope saved, including exo geni boss. Rachni Queen released. Kaiden dead. LI Ashley. Council saved.
Maximum squad for ME2. All loyalty missions. All Normandy upgrades. Minimum crew losses. No one died. Collector Base destroyed.
LI Ashley. Genophage cured, Moridin dead. Geth and Quarian peace. 7000 War Assets at 100% readiness.
In both cases, after you leave the forward base you will have the exact same experience of combat and assistance from war assets. Hammer squad will ultimately fail and be killed by Harbinger and other Reaper forces. Shepard will be hit by a lazer beam, but survive, wounded. Shepard will get in to the Citadel and meet Anderson and TIM.
Consequence 1: TIM will kill Anderson or Anderson dies.
TIM kills himself and Shepard collapses on to a platform, where she is taken to see a random God child, who will say exactly the same things, with exactly the same conversation choices. After this, Shepard will be given a choice of 3 firing options.
Choice 1: A, B or C.
The video clip that follows will be almost identical no matter what the choice. The Reapers are always defeated, the Mass Relays are always destroyed, Normandy always crashes and nothing else about the galaxy after the Reapers is shown at all. In both playthroughs, if destroy was chosen Shepard will take a breath in rubble on Earth. After the credits a child will ask an adult to tell one more story about the Shepard and the adult agrees.
Absolutely nothing, from any of the decisions taken over all 3 games has any effects on the ending, on the video clips, on the conversation options or on the epilogue. The only decision that matters in terms of which ending you got, over the past 100 hours of gameplay, is whether you got a red, blue or green ending, and even those are identical video clips with no more explanation.
By Mass effect standards that is awful, they're so much better than that. Compare the ending of ME2, from the time you go through the Omega 4 relay, to the ending from the Hammer Forward Operating Base, and ME3 looks like a cheap knock off, with little to no thought or consequence. We were promised wildly different endings, with decisions making huge impacts on the ending we shaped for ourselves. We were promised the Rachni would matter and that the Reapers could win. We were promised so much, and yet in the end it didn't even reach the standards for general Mass Effect gameplay.
On March 23 2012 12:53 On_Slaught wrote: Even if the indoctrination theory was true, it doesn't change the terrible stuff about the Normandy randomly running away and crashing on some random planet with people who couldn't have been on the ship.
If the indoctrination theory is true then nothing you saw after being hit by Harbinger, including the scene with the Normandy, actually happened.
...Which means it's not an ending. CONGRATULATIONS! You've successfuly fought off the indoctrination, the game is over!!! Nevermind about what happens next, your friends, the crew, the rest of earth, the reapers... who needs any answers....
Yeah the indoctrination theory doesn't make it a good ending, it's still hella unsatisfying and lacks closure. What it does do is give Bioware a perfect starting point for a true ending without changing anything about the main game canon, which is why they need to embrace it even if it wasn't their intention. (seriously though, everything about the scenes points to yes)
Last edit: 2012-03-23 16:31:27
Hoban United States. March 23 2012 17:16. Posts 962
On March 23 2012 12:53 On_Slaught wrote: Even if the indoctrination theory was true, it doesn't change the terrible stuff about the Normandy randomly running away and crashing on some random planet with people who couldn't have been on the ship.
If the indoctrination theory is true then nothing you saw after being hit by Harbinger, including the scene with the Normandy, actually happened.
...Which means it's not an ending. CONGRATULATIONS! You've successfuly fought off the indoctrination, the game is over!!! Nevermind about what happens next, your friends, the crew, the rest of earth, the reapers... who needs any answers....
Yeah the indoctrination theory doesn't make it a good ending, it's still hella unsatisfying and lacks closure. What it does do is give Bioware a perfect starting point for a true ending without changing anything about the main game canon, which is why they need to embrace it even if it wasn't their intention. (seriously though, everything about the scenes points to yes)
This exactly. I much prefer the suspense to a "welp you killed all the reapers with a gigantic cannon. GG everything worked out." The ending was a great mind fuck imo and I really liked it.
On March 23 2012 12:43 Mig wrote: The strongest evidence by far for me are the trees and bushes behind you after you wake from being hit by harbingers beam. Very clearly those weren't there before and you are in the center of London so either they made some ridiculous mistake and randomly added trees + bushes into their final scene or they are there for a reason.
But I really wonder if Bioware would have the guts to take such a big risk and try such an unconventienal idea with a franchise this important.
I guess we will know once the first DLC is released.
There were trees when you run down the hill. I'm so sick of this claim that I'm not even going to dig up a video for you. Look it up yourself. They're on the rigth side, quite far down.
lynx.oblige Sierra Leone. March 23 2012 19:40. Posts 2034
On March 23 2012 12:53 On_Slaught wrote: Even if the indoctrination theory was true, it doesn't change the terrible stuff about the Normandy randomly running away and crashing on some random planet with people who couldn't have been on the ship.
This guy was not paying attention at all.
Everyone needs a nemesis.
wo1fwood United States. March 23 2012 20:47. Posts 2339
On March 23 2012 12:43 Mig wrote: The strongest evidence by far for me are the trees and bushes behind you after you wake from being hit by harbingers beam. Very clearly those weren't there before and you are in the center of London so either they made some ridiculous mistake and randomly added trees + bushes into their final scene or they are there for a reason.
But I really wonder if Bioware would have the guts to take such a big risk and try such an unconventienal idea with a franchise this important.
I guess we will know once the first DLC is released.
There were trees when you run down the hill. I'm so sick of this claim that I'm not even going to dig up a video for you. Look it up yourself. They're on the rigth side, quite far down.
Yea, honestly, too many people are trying to make this theory work, grasping at straws rather than taking everything at face value. I understand that it's an amazing theory (though I firmly believe the dream angle is really obtuse), but it's just that, a theory. There are simply too many mistakes and errors directorally for any of these proposed endings to be the right ones.
DragoonPK Bahrain. March 23 2012 20:50. Posts 3195
I always thought that the ending was kind of weird, and should have been a lot better. I didn't want them to change it though but if what they are doing is actually supporting content around it then that would be cool. That Indoctrination video is so so good!
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Iyerbeth England. March 23 2012 16:17. Posts 2239
