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| IntoTheheart Canada. January 07 2011 12:18. Posts 2728 | Profile Blog # |
| Honestly I just sorta feel that FlaSh might just have gone into a minislump due to his pressure of CARRYING HIS TEAM. Likewise for Dong. |
| | When a ghost kill someone with their gauss rifle, are they performing gaussian elimination then? - Arnstein |  |
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| Mortality United States. January 07 2011 12:21. Posts 4790 | Profile Blog # |
On January 07 2011 03:50 Severedevil wrote:
Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 01:46 Mortality wrote:
On January 06 2011 07:43 Lightwip wrote:
On January 06 2011 07:38 L0thar wrote:
Yes, protoss are generally in similar deep shit like terrans, but lacking Flash-like persona to make it up.
Erm...Bisu? He won 3 starleagues and he's as dominant as Flash when he is on top. He just has problems with extended slumps. I don't think you know how dominant Bisu was in 08-09. For a time, he was better than both Flash and JD, just he went into a slump in 2010. When Flash inevitably goes into a slump, the situation is reversed.
Bisu was never as dominant as Flash has been recently. There was much hype for the possibility of Bisu as 5th bonjwa, but he failed the test. He lost to Mind, then he stopped appearing in finals at all for quite some time. Flash succeeded. Bisu has never matched Flash's 2010 results or win-rate.
Bisu's results in the Golden Age seemed comparable to Flash in 2010, but Flash carried his run through three Starleague seasons to Bisu's one. I think Bisu could have held that level of dominance for two seasons had it not been for unmanageable ZvP maps suddenly trashing the individual leagues (Tears of the Moon, Neo Harmony). But three seasons? Probably not.
Blaming Z > P maps for Bisu's demise seems shallow to me.
In terms of accomplishments, I'd regard Bisu's strongest period as during 07, but he was thwarted from making 3 SL titles in a row by Mind in MSL and by Stork in OSL (semifinals).
In terms of record, Bisu's strongest period was around ClubDay MSL. In Incruit OSL (which occurred concurrently), Bisu was knocked out by Stork in the Ro8. The following season, it's true that Zerg players (Savior and Zero) knocked Bisu out of Lost Saga MSL, but in Batoo OSL, he was curb-stomped 3-0 by Fantasy. And the season after that was the infamous Iris win over Bisu in Avalon MSL. In Bacchus 09 OSL (concurrent to Avalon MSL), Bisu was eliminated 1-2 in the group stages by Zero and Go.Go (strangely, Bug Terran has a 3-1 record over Bisu in standard matches, 4-1 in total in televised games).
I do not feel that Z > P maps played anything more than a trivial role in Bisu's demise.
Historically speaking, Terran players and Stork were what held Bisu back from dominance. Bisu's PvT may have seemed absurdly strong during and after ClubDay MSL, but I'd criticize that he faced a lot of weaker TvP players like FBH (lifetime 41% TvP), Hwasin (46% lifetime, was 2-8 in his last 10 TvP matches prior to facing Bisu in ClubDay MSL), and SkyHigh (lifetime 40% TvP). |
| | Even though this Proleague bullshit has been completely bogus, I really, really, really do not see how Khan can lose this. I swear I will kill myself if they do. - nesix before KHAN lost to eNature |
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| Musoeun United States. January 07 2011 14:01. Posts 4324 | Profile Blog # |
On January 06 2011 06:48 Severedevil wrote:
I'm inclined to discount Calm's and JulyZerg's victories as lucky flukes, since Calm's only strong opponents were busy carrying their teams through Proleague Finals SuperAce Matches after Calm was already eliminated...
I'm never inclined to "discount" Starleague victories on any grounds (even July's, while kind of laughable, has at least one impressive moment: he got out of an all Z group). Do we "look at the stats" and discount Jaedong's win over fantasy because the Crown Prince is a terrible TvZer (by S-class standards, anyway)? Of course, not, because we all remember how epic that final was (but I still think that, for instance, Bisu (whom fantasy knocked out) would have beaten Jaedong at that time - there are always qualifications to make). Further, Calm is one of my favorite Zerg players, so I have to defend him. I'm not saying it was the hardest starleague run ever (I have no idea what that would be: possibly Bisu's first MSL, or GGPlay's OSL win, or fOrGG's run?) but Calm:
- beat Sea and ZerO (okay, old terrible ZvZ ZerO) to 2-0 his group
- 2-0 against fOrGG
- 3-0 against EffOrt (back when EvZ was the new hot thing)
- 3-1 against Jaedong (no comment)
- and then, yes, the final farce of the 3-1 drubbing he administered to Kwanro. Calm vs Iris would have been a better match, and would probably have "legitimized" the win to a lot of people (to say nothing of the hypothetical Calm vs Bisu final, which would have been amazing), but I'd guess Calm would still have won - and Kwanro's ZvZ is not that shabby.
Yes, Calm won a lot of his games on mindgames and out-thinking; but he beat 3 of the top ZvZ players in the world (and Sea, fOrGG, and ZerO, hardly scrubs) on that run. Don't knock it! |
| | Don't Shoot the Penguins. | Dance, 성은, dance! | Killer FanKlub | Action sucks. | Storm Terran hwaiting. | |
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| luckybeni2 Germany. January 07 2011 18:03. Posts 991 | Profile # |
On January 07 2011 14:01 Musoeun wrote:
Show nested quote +On January 06 2011 06:48 Severedevil wrote:
I'm inclined to discount Calm's and JulyZerg's victories as lucky flukes, since Calm's only strong opponents were busy carrying their teams through Proleague Finals SuperAce Matches after Calm was already eliminated...
I'm never inclined to "discount" Starleague victories on any grounds (even July's, while kind of laughable, has at least one impressive moment: he got out of an all Z group). Do we "look at the stats" and discount Jaedong's win over fantasy because the Crown Prince is a terrible TvZer (by S-class standards, anyway)? Of course, not, because we all remember how epic that final was (but I still think that, for instance, Bisu (whom fantasy knocked out) would have beaten Jaedong at that time - there are always qualifications to make). Further, Calm is one of my favorite Zerg players, so I have to defend him. I'm not saying it was the hardest starleague run ever (I have no idea what that would be: possibly Bisu's first MSL, or GGPlay's OSL win, or fOrGG's run?) but Calm: - beat Sea and ZerO (okay, old terrible ZvZ ZerO) to 2-0 his group - 2-0 against fOrGG - 3-0 against EffOrt (back when EvZ was the new hot thing) - 3-1 against Jaedong (no comment) - and then, yes, the final farce of the 3-1 drubbing he administered to Kwanro. Calm vs Iris would have been a better match, and would probably have "legitimized" the win to a lot of people (to say nothing of the hypothetical Calm vs Bisu final, which would have been amazing), but I'd guess Calm would still have won - and Kwanro's ZvZ is not that shabby. Yes, Calm won a lot of his games on mindgames and out-thinking; but he beat 3 of the top ZvZ players in the world (and Sea, fOrGG, and ZerO, hardly scrubs) on that run. Don't knock it!
Some people might give Calm too little credit for his win but one must know that it was the time many consider the worst in BW histoy. Hardest SL win ever? Id say Forgg(oops). Flash, JD Kal all in prime condition.
Edit:Forgg not mind lolLast edit: 2011-01-08 03:21:24 |
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| Goragoth New Zealand. January 07 2011 18:28. Posts 689 | Profile Blog # |
On January 07 2011 14:01 Musoeun wrote:
Show nested quote +On January 06 2011 06:48 Severedevil wrote:
I'm inclined to discount Calm's and JulyZerg's victories as lucky flukes, since Calm's only strong opponents were busy carrying their teams through Proleague Finals SuperAce Matches after Calm was already eliminated...
I'm never inclined to "discount" Starleague victories on any grounds (even July's, while kind of laughable, has at least one impressive moment: he got out of an all Z group). Do we "look at the stats" and discount Jaedong's win over fantasy because the Crown Prince is a terrible TvZer (by S-class standards, anyway)? Of course, not, because we all remember how epic that final was (but I still think that, for instance, Bisu (whom fantasy knocked out) would have beaten Jaedong at that time - there are always qualifications to make). Further, Calm is one of my favorite Zerg players, so I have to defend him. I'm not saying it was the hardest starleague run ever (I have no idea what that would be: possibly Bisu's first MSL, or GGPlay's OSL win, or fOrGG's run?) but Calm: - beat Sea and ZerO (okay, old terrible ZvZ ZerO) to 2-0 his group - 2-0 against fOrGG - 3-0 against EffOrt (back when EvZ was the new hot thing) - 3-1 against Jaedong (no comment) - and then, yes, the final farce of the 3-1 drubbing he administered to Kwanro. Calm vs Iris would have been a better match, and would probably have "legitimized" the win to a lot of people (to say nothing of the hypothetical Calm vs Bisu final, which would have been amazing), but I'd guess Calm would still have won - and Kwanro's ZvZ is not that shabby. Yes, Calm won a lot of his games on mindgames and out-thinking; but he beat 3 of the top ZvZ players in the world (and Sea, fOrGG, and ZerO, hardly scrubs) on that run. Don't knock it!
I like Calm a lot and he played well during that time (his most impressive game IMO was the 12-hatch versus 4 pool win he had against Kwanro in the finals) but honestly he had a ton of luck in his run. Just listing the opponents makes it look better than it was:
- fOrGG was already pretty bad at the time, hardly a top level opponent
- EffOrt was strong a ZvZ at the time but clearly over-worked carrying his team through PL playoffs and all three games were 9 pool versus 12 hatch BO wins for Calm.
- Jaedong... People read way to much into this series. For months afterwards people were hailing Calm as ZvZ god for taking down the mighty Jaedong in a Bo5, but seriously, Jaedong looked half dead that game. He had been working himself sick trying to carry his team in the PL playoffs, playing in the MSL and going for his golden mouse in the OSL. He was literally in hospital at some point around this time because he had practised so much that he fell ill. It's impressive that he even managed to win a single game that series. |
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| Elroi Sweden. January 07 2011 20:12. Posts 3846 | Profile # |
On January 07 2011 18:28 Goragoth wrote:
Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 14:01 Musoeun wrote:
On January 06 2011 06:48 Severedevil wrote:
I'm inclined to discount Calm's and JulyZerg's victories as lucky flukes, since Calm's only strong opponents were busy carrying their teams through Proleague Finals SuperAce Matches after Calm was already eliminated...
I'm never inclined to "discount" Starleague victories on any grounds (even July's, while kind of laughable, has at least one impressive moment: he got out of an all Z group). Do we "look at the stats" and discount Jaedong's win over fantasy because the Crown Prince is a terrible TvZer (by S-class standards, anyway)? Of course, not, because we all remember how epic that final was (but I still think that, for instance, Bisu (whom fantasy knocked out) would have beaten Jaedong at that time - there are always qualifications to make). Further, Calm is one of my favorite Zerg players, so I have to defend him. I'm not saying it was the hardest starleague run ever (I have no idea what that would be: possibly Bisu's first MSL, or GGPlay's OSL win, or fOrGG's run?) but Calm: - beat Sea and ZerO (okay, old terrible ZvZ ZerO) to 2-0 his group - 2-0 against fOrGG - 3-0 against EffOrt (back when EvZ was the new hot thing) - 3-1 against Jaedong (no comment) - and then, yes, the final farce of the 3-1 drubbing he administered to Kwanro. Calm vs Iris would have been a better match, and would probably have "legitimized" the win to a lot of people (to say nothing of the hypothetical Calm vs Bisu final, which would have been amazing), but I'd guess Calm would still have won - and Kwanro's ZvZ is not that shabby. Yes, Calm won a lot of his games on mindgames and out-thinking; but he beat 3 of the top ZvZ players in the world (and Sea, fOrGG, and ZerO, hardly scrubs) on that run. Don't knock it!
I like Calm a lot and he played well during that time (his most impressive game IMO was the 12-hatch versus 4 pool win he had against Kwanro in the finals) but honestly he had a ton of luck in his run. Just listing the opponents makes it look better than it was: - fOrGG was already pretty bad at the time, hardly a top level opponent - EffOrt was strong a ZvZ at the time but clearly over-worked carrying his team through PL playoffs and all three games were 9 pool versus 12 hatch BO wins for Calm. - Jaedong... People read way to much into this series. For months afterwards people were hailing Calm as ZvZ god for taking down the mighty Jaedong in a Bo5, but seriously, Jaedong looked half dead that game. He had been working himself sick trying to carry his team in the PL playoffs, playing in the MSL and going for his golden mouse in the OSL. He was literally in hospital at some point around this time because he had practised so much that he fell ill. It's impressive that he even managed to win a single game that series.
It might seem like a bad excuse, but I think the free agency played a big role in it. Jaedong said in the interview IIRC that he only pracized one day or even one night before that series because of it (and Jaedong usually doesn't whine in interviews). Calm was playing amazingly though, no doubt.Last edit: 2011-01-07 20:12:51 |
| | "To all eSports fans, I want to be remembered as a progamer who can make something out of nothing, and someone who always does his best. I think that is the right way of living, and I'm always doing my best to follow that." - Jaedong |  |
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| Musoeun United States. January 07 2011 23:00. Posts 4324 | Profile Blog # |
Granted I'm a Calm fan, by imo a lot of people are still overlooking the importance of Calm's wins (bad BW or not): going in - and I don't know how to find the old liquibet threads to prove this. But I know EffOrt and Jaedong were both heavy, heavy favorites going in. We were transitioning from "ZvZ bleh, luck" with Jaedong being the huge anomaly to "Okay, other people are starting to figure this out" (luxury, EffOrt, 815 when he remembered how to play). It was Calm's first big season: and what he proved was that a little strategy could be used even in ZvZ for a win. Strategically, his approach was essentially the same as fantasy used against Jaedong: mix things up, hide units, be "cheesy" - except that Calm won. To me, that was one of the big nails in the coffin of "old" ZvZ where you could look at BOs and win.
(Granted, strategic importance doesn't necessarily mean anything about how hard a series was, and I know I'm being partisan here.) |
| | Don't Shoot the Penguins. | Dance, 성은, dance! | Killer FanKlub | Action sucks. | Storm Terran hwaiting. | |
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| Holgerius Sweden. January 07 2011 23:21. Posts 16789 | Profile Blog # |
Stork is proving he deserves his spot and intends to stay there. First he goes up 1-0 vs the PR #2 and the next day he reaches the OSL Ro4. Dual finals for Stork would make me very happy.  |
| | I believe in the almighty Grötslev! -- I am never serious and you should never believe a thing I say. Including the previous sentence. |  |
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| Mortality United States. January 07 2011 23:35. Posts 4790 | Profile Blog # |
Calm's win should not be undervalued and calling it a fluke victory seems silly to me. Sure, he hasn't been anywhere near that strong looking since then, but he consistently makes it deep in tournaments even when he's going through Clam moments. Just look at last season -- Ro8 of MSL even though his results were sucky on the whole at the time.
Every SL winner has deserved their win. Whether you're talking about Calm or July or Casy or Anytime's every-game-a-cheese, all players had to work hard for their goal. No matter how you look at it, whether we're talking ForGG's MSL win (with bo5's over Flash and JD) or NaDa's IOPS run or whatever, no single SL has ever been a "perfect test" of ability. Even if they play all the hardest opponents, you still have to consider things like maps and metagame trends. Hence the importance of a player being tested over multiple seasons in order to be considered for bonjwa. |
| | Even though this Proleague bullshit has been completely bogus, I really, really, really do not see how Khan can lose this. I swear I will kill myself if they do. - nesix before KHAN lost to eNature |
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| Musoeun United States. January 08 2011 00:11. Posts 4324 | Profile Blog # |
| In non-Calm news, looks like Kal really wasn't a solid #3, and Modesty should maybe have HoGiL's spot. |
| | Don't Shoot the Penguins. | Dance, 성은, dance! | Killer FanKlub | Action sucks. | Storm Terran hwaiting. | |
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 flamewheel HANG KANG. January 08 2011 00:14. Posts 21480 | Profile Blog # |
| Yeah should have gone with gut and put Modesty. Oh well, next month! |
| | Clouds are making way for me. | |
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| luckybeni2 Germany. January 08 2011 03:25. Posts 991 | Profile # |
On January 08 2011 00:11 Musoeun wrote:
In non-Calm news, looks like Kal really wasn't a solid #3, and Modesty should maybe have HoGiL's spot.
The wierd thing was that kal played so much better than him in game 2. Game 3 was fun to watch but I would not count it against kal too much. The map is 80% z>p. It was incredible defense and he almost came out on top. |
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| ZZangDreamjOy Canada. January 08 2011 04:27. Posts 910 | Profile Blog # |
On January 08 2011 03:25 luckybeni2 wrote:
Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 00:11 Musoeun wrote:
In non-Calm news, looks like Kal really wasn't a solid #3, and Modesty should maybe have HoGiL's spot.
The wierd thing was that kal played so much better than him in game 2. Game 3 was fun to watch but I would not count it against kal too much. The map is 80% z>p. It was incredible defense and he almost came out on top.
That makes absolutely no sense. You can't play better then someone and still lose. |
| | http://last.fm/user/loganterriah |  |
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| Holgerius Sweden. January 08 2011 04:34. Posts 16789 | Profile Blog # |
On January 08 2011 04:27 ZZangDreamjOy wrote:
Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 03:25 luckybeni2 wrote:
On January 08 2011 00:11 Musoeun wrote:
In non-Calm news, looks like Kal really wasn't a solid #3, and Modesty should maybe have HoGiL's spot.
The wierd thing was that kal played so much better than him in game 2. Game 3 was fun to watch but I would not count it against kal too much. The map is 80% z>p. It was incredible defense and he almost came out on top.
That makes absolutely no sense. You can't play better then someone and still lose.
In general, ya, I tend to agree with the idea that whoever wins per definition played better. |
| | I believe in the almighty Grötslev! -- I am never serious and you should never believe a thing I say. Including the previous sentence. | |
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| Mortality United States. January 08 2011 04:38. Posts 4790 | Profile Blog # |
On January 08 2011 04:27 ZZangDreamjOy wrote:
Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 03:25 luckybeni2 wrote:
On January 08 2011 00:11 Musoeun wrote:
In non-Calm news, looks like Kal really wasn't a solid #3, and Modesty should maybe have HoGiL's spot.
The wierd thing was that kal played so much better than him in game 2. Game 3 was fun to watch but I would not count it against kal too much. The map is 80% z>p. It was incredible defense and he almost came out on top.
That makes absolutely no sense. You can't play better then someone and still lose.
I haven't seen the game, but I'll comment that no, a player can play better and still lose. For example a player can fall behind due to build order disadvantage or cheesy play and then *almost* succeed in making a comeback. Or a glitch can occur, like a tank popping for no reason. Or a reaver can decide it doesn't want its scarabs to do any damage. Or bad luck can occur with scouting or whatever. Or the map could be imbalanced, maybe racially imbalanced, or maybe one position mines faster than the other...
Many, many factors go into a game of Starcraft and some of them can cause the better player to lose. |
| | Even though this Proleague bullshit has been completely bogus, I really, really, really do not see how Khan can lose this. I swear I will kill myself if they do. - nesix before KHAN lost to eNature |
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| Holgerius Sweden. January 08 2011 04:49. Posts 16789 | Profile Blog # |
On January 08 2011 04:38 Mortality wrote:
Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 04:27 ZZangDreamjOy wrote:
On January 08 2011 03:25 luckybeni2 wrote:
On January 08 2011 00:11 Musoeun wrote:
In non-Calm news, looks like Kal really wasn't a solid #3, and Modesty should maybe have HoGiL's spot.
The wierd thing was that kal played so much better than him in game 2. Game 3 was fun to watch but I would not count it against kal too much. The map is 80% z>p. It was incredible defense and he almost came out on top.
That makes absolutely no sense. You can't play better then someone and still lose.
I haven't seen the game, but I'll comment that no, a player can play better and still lose. For example a player can fall behind due to build order disadvantage or cheesy play and then *almost* succeed in making a comeback. Or a glitch can occur, like a tank popping for no reason. Or a reaver can decide it doesn't want its scarabs to do any damage. Or bad luck can occur with scouting or whatever. Or the map could be imbalanced, maybe racially imbalanced, or maybe one position mines faster than the other... Many, many factors go into a game of Starcraft and some of them can cause the better player to lose.
The better player can lose, but not the one who played better (in that specific game). That is my view on things. Of course there are extreme examples that you can argue has a lot to do with luck, but typically when we talk about build order advantages and stuff it can be attributed to mind games which is a very important tool when playing SC and most definitely a skill related thing. Execution of strategies and the mechanical part of the game are not the only relevant aspects of playing good SC.
Zzangwhateverhisnameis never said ''Modesty is the better player'', he only said that Kal didn't play better than him in Game 2 and even though I didn't watch the game too closely (was multitasking at the time) I agree with him. Kal lost, Modesty played better. |
| | I believe in the almighty Grötslev! -- I am never serious and you should never believe a thing I say. Including the previous sentence. | |
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| Severedevil United States. January 08 2011 05:40. Posts 4498 | Profile Blog # |
I didn't see the entire Kal vs. Modesty game 2, but in the part I saw, Kal dug himself deep into a hole by building an expensive dragoon/templar-heavy army off two-onto-three bases and then losing it failing to break a 4-base Zerg that was just finishing hive tech.
If Kal was outplaying Modesty for the rest of the game after that point, fine... but sometimes you fuck up too badly to make a comeback. |
| | My strategy is to fork people. |
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| Mortality United States. January 08 2011 05:41. Posts 4790 | Profile Blog # |
On January 08 2011 04:49 Holgerius wrote:
Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 04:38 Mortality wrote:
On January 08 2011 04:27 ZZangDreamjOy wrote:
On January 08 2011 03:25 luckybeni2 wrote:
On January 08 2011 00:11 Musoeun wrote:
In non-Calm news, looks like Kal really wasn't a solid #3, and Modesty should maybe have HoGiL's spot.
The wierd thing was that kal played so much better than him in game 2. Game 3 was fun to watch but I would not count it against kal too much. The map is 80% z>p. It was incredible defense and he almost came out on top.
That makes absolutely no sense. You can't play better then someone and still lose.
I haven't seen the game, but I'll comment that no, a player can play better and still lose. For example a player can fall behind due to build order disadvantage or cheesy play and then *almost* succeed in making a comeback. Or a glitch can occur, like a tank popping for no reason. Or a reaver can decide it doesn't want its scarabs to do any damage. Or bad luck can occur with scouting or whatever. Or the map could be imbalanced, maybe racially imbalanced, or maybe one position mines faster than the other... Many, many factors go into a game of Starcraft and some of them can cause the better player to lose.
The better player can lose, but not the one who played better (in that specific game). That is my view on things. Of course there are extreme examples that you can argue has a lot to do with luck, but typically when we talk about build order advantages and stuff it can be attributed to mind games which is a very important tool when playing SC and most definitely a skill related thing. Execution of strategies and the mechanical part of the game are not the only relevant aspects of playing good SC. Zzangwhateverhisnameis never said ''Modesty is the better player'', he only said that Kal didn't play better than him in Game 2 and even though I didn't watch the game too closely (was multitasking at the time) I agree with him. Kal lost, Modesty played better.
I disagree. Rather strongly. When I think back to all the thousands of games I've played, I can recall some that I won that I did not deserve to win and I can recall some that I lost that I did not deserve to lose. And the same bears true for progamer matches I've watched. It's not all open and shut.
I don't really like listening to these kinds of arguments about "so-and-so played better but lost anyway" because 90+% of them are bullcrap, but there is truth that can be found there in some of them. |
| | Even though this Proleague bullshit has been completely bogus, I really, really, really do not see how Khan can lose this. I swear I will kill myself if they do. - nesix before KHAN lost to eNature |
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| Holgerius Sweden. January 08 2011 05:56. Posts 16789 | Profile Blog # |
| IMO the games where it's really warranted to say ''This guy deserved to win this specific game but lost it anyways'' are extremely rare. In almost all cases you can attribute it to some sort of decision making. |
| | I believe in the almighty Grötslev! -- I am never serious and you should never believe a thing I say. Including the previous sentence. | |
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| StylishVODs Sweden. January 08 2011 06:23. Posts 4988 | Profile # |
I'd say the player who played better can definately lose and it's not even that uncommon.
Wether you like it or not, luck can win you the game sometimes.
I'm not commenting about any specific game now. |
| | According to Reach, he is the fastest learner he has ever seen. He start bw only like 2/3 years ago. Infact, his bw history knowledge is so limited, he didn't even know what the map Guillotine was. | |
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