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| StylishVODs Sweden. January 23 2011 03:32. Posts 4988 | Profile # |
Boring maybe, but more accurate imo.
When players like Kal places ahead of jaedong and flash just because of a few games PR cannot really be reliable rank of power.
I don't think the old PRs were boring...Last edit: 2011-01-23 03:33:34 |
| | According to Reach, he is the fastest learner he has ever seen. He start bw only like 2/3 years ago. Infact, his bw history knowledge is so limited, he didn't even know what the map Guillotine was. |  |
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| okum Austria. January 23 2011 04:02. Posts 5700 | Profile Blog # |
| Anyway, you're all missing the point. The purpose of the PR discussion thread is to act as a sandbox for fanboys in order to reduce the amount of mud spilled over the rest of the forums. The primary principle when ranking the players is to provoke fanboys of all camps in order to draw and keep their attention. |
| | I was a Flash fan before it was cool | Coiner of "jangbang" | |
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| Mortality United States. January 23 2011 04:12. Posts 4790 | Profile Blog # |
Not at all more accurate. I'm going to be rough on you: you're only saying that because you know Flash would benefit and you're saying "who gives a fuck?" about every single other progamer. Only #1 matters and it has to be Flash. Which is a very dick thing to say no matter how much of a fanboy you are.
In that kind of ranking where you only consider your "feelings" about who wins a Bo5, it's damn near impossible to come up with a good ranking for #6-10 on the PR.
The reality is that it's only easy to speculate about Bo5's when there is a vast discrepancy in skill, and when speculating about Bo5's it's hard to adjust to a player who suddenly becomes hot (which, in case anyone has forgotten, is exactly what the PR is supposed to measure -- hotness), and there's a lot of "feelings" involved that might not even really have substance except in the mind of the PR writer.
As things are, I think there's enough feeling in the ranking. Feeling is what placed Hydra as #6 on the last PR even though statistically he had the best month.
And while we're on the subject of old rankings? Flash's drop from #1 to #5 certainly does have precedent. Take a look at Bisu's placement from Dec 2008 to Jan 2009 rankings. During that time, Bisu went 11-6 including a Bo3 victory over Flash, but 4 losses in Starleague (0-2 to Hero in OSL on Z > P Medusa and Z >>>> P Tears of the Moon -- one of the most imbalanced maps ever -- losses to Savior on Z >>>> P Neo Harmony -- almost as bad as Tears of the Moon -- and Zero on Z > P Destination in MSL).
Edit: Should also point out, Bisu was still advancing in the third individual league GOM at the time... Flash doesn't have that. And yes, Bisu was dominating in PL at that time.... so dropping the ball in two of four leagues was enough to bump Bisu to 5th.
And that was with FakeSteve who always put a lot of emphasis in "feelings" on his ranking!!!!!!
I'd argue that the only player above Flash who shouldn't be is Kal, and furthermore, that is something we only can see clearly in hindsight. At the time, Kal was not such an unreasonable pick for #3. I would have considered him one of the clear favorites to win OSL. A heavy favorite over Modesty, a favorite over Stork (yes -- Stork's PvP ELO was only around 2060 at the time, while Kal was the #2 PvP player behind one match wonder Horang2), and a good bet against Fantasy, which was his most likely path to the finals. And although Kal's record was bad, he had a very tough schedule. This month has shown that such faith in Kal was misplaced.Last edit: 2011-01-23 04:25:02 |
| | Even though this Proleague bullshit has been completely bogus, I really, really, really do not see how Khan can lose this. I swear I will kill myself if they do. - nesix before KHAN lost to eNature |
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| Elroi Sweden. January 23 2011 04:19. Posts 3890 | Profile # |
On January 23 2011 03:32 StylishVODs wrote:
Boring maybe, but more accurate imo.
When players like Kal places ahead of jaedong and flash just because of a few games PR cannot really be reliable rank of power.
I don't think the old PRs were boring...
These last two rankings have been great imo. Interesting, accurate, well articulated. Jaedong and Flash definitely deserved being bumped down last month because SLs - as indicator of personal performance > SPL. Then again, a PR writer could easily argue that Jaedong has looked shaky this month and put Flash ahead because he has been very dominant in PL. But you can't just pretend that Flash didn't get beat by scrubs in his most important games last month. Was Jaedong unlucky that he played maybe the worst game of his career against Hogil last month? Probably. That doesn’t mean we could just disregard the game. Being clutch (= not having those bad days when it counts) means incredibly much in SC. It is not like it is the first time ever Flash gets knocked out far too early in SLs.
Flash and Bisu seems more prone to get knocked out too early (compared to their skill level) imo than Stork and Jaedong. I could be wrong though. But stop pretending that it doesn’t matter!
My favorite clutch moments of SC (Keep in mind, I'm a huge zerg/jaedong fan ^_^):
Jaedong vs Fantasy BO5: when Jaedong traps a volulture in the back of his base with drones and lings.
July beating best in the OSL finals to get the golden mouse, against all odds while using literally every trick in the book.
Noney beating Idra in the TSL final.
I guess what I am trying to say is that “Power” and being good at Starcraft in general is so much more than just being able to rake up wins with superior micro/macro in proleague every day in the same way.
Last edit: 2011-01-23 04:22:43 |
| | "To all eSports fans, I want to be remembered as a progamer who can make something out of nothing, and someone who always does his best. I think that is the right way of living, and I'm always doing my best to follow that." - Jaedong |  |
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| Holgerius Sweden. January 23 2011 04:27. Posts 16798 | Profile Blog # |
Flash reaches every final for an entire year, and all of a sudden he's ''more prone to get knocked out too early''. Great. -__-
JD has 2 more finals overall than Flash I think, but he's also been a progamer for at least 1 year longer than Flash. Flash also has several more Ro16 appearances in OSL compared to JD.
We are forgetting about 2010 way too fast IMO. Flash deserves more benefit of doubt than some people seem to give him. |
| | I believe in the almighty Grötslev! -- I am never serious and you should never believe a thing I say. Including the previous sentence. | |
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 Xiphos Canada. January 23 2011 04:33. Posts 5732 | Profile Blog # |
On January 23 2011 04:27 Holgerius wrote:
Flash reaches every final for an entire year, and all of a sudden he's ''more prone to get knocked out too early''. Great. -__-
JD has 2 more finals overall than Flash I think, but he's also been a progamer for at least 1 year longer than Flash. Flash also has several more Ro16 appearances in OSL compared to JD.
We are forgetting about 2010 way too fast IMO. Flash deserves more benefit of doubt than some people seem to give him.
You are still holding on to the past. This is suppose to be a MONTHLY power ranking. |
| | 2012 - Remember of the Fallen Heroes and Command the way to your victory. |  |
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| Holgerius Sweden. January 23 2011 04:48. Posts 16798 | Profile Blog # |
On January 23 2011 04:33 Xiphos wrote:
Show nested quote +On January 23 2011 04:27 Holgerius wrote:
Flash reaches every final for an entire year, and all of a sudden he's ''more prone to get knocked out too early''. Great. -__-
JD has 2 more finals overall than Flash I think, but he's also been a progamer for at least 1 year longer than Flash. Flash also has several more Ro16 appearances in OSL compared to JD.
We are forgetting about 2010 way too fast IMO. Flash deserves more benefit of doubt than some people seem to give him.
You are still holding on to the past. This is suppose to be a MONTHLY power ranking.
First off, in this case I'm not really arguing about Flash's position on the PR, I'm mostly annoyed by the statement that Flash is ''more prone to get knocked out too early''
Secondly, go back and read past PRs. It has rarely been about only the results of the past month. Past performances (which influences the likelihood of the player keeping it up), quality of the games, quality of the opposition etc are all important factors. It's down to the PR writer to find the appropriate mix, and it's not really set in stone. |
| | I believe in the almighty Grötslev! -- I am never serious and you should never believe a thing I say. Including the previous sentence. | |
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| Xiphos Canada. January 23 2011 05:23. Posts 5732 | Profile Blog # |
On January 23 2011 04:48 Holgerius wrote:
Show nested quote +On January 23 2011 04:33 Xiphos wrote:
On January 23 2011 04:27 Holgerius wrote:
Flash reaches every final for an entire year, and all of a sudden he's ''more prone to get knocked out too early''. Great. -__-
JD has 2 more finals overall than Flash I think, but he's also been a progamer for at least 1 year longer than Flash. Flash also has several more Ro16 appearances in OSL compared to JD.
We are forgetting about 2010 way too fast IMO. Flash deserves more benefit of doubt than some people seem to give him.
You are still holding on to the past. This is suppose to be a MONTHLY power ranking.
First off, in this case I'm not really arguing about Flash's position on the PR, I'm mostly annoyed by the statement that Flash is ''more prone to get knocked out too early'' Secondly, go back and read past PRs. It has rarely been about only the results of the past month. Past performances (which influences the likelihood of the player keeping it up), quality of the games, quality of the opposition etc are all important factors. It's down to the PR writer to find the appropriate mix, and it's not really set in stone.
Could you explain why "flash is more prone to be knocked out too early?"
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| | 2012 - Remember of the Fallen Heroes and Command the way to your victory. | |
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| TaimalaiX Canada. January 23 2011 05:53. Posts 88 | Profile # |
On January 23 2011 05:23 Xiphos wrote:
Show nested quote +On January 23 2011 04:48 Holgerius wrote:
On January 23 2011 04:33 Xiphos wrote:
On January 23 2011 04:27 Holgerius wrote:
Flash reaches every final for an entire year, and all of a sudden he's ''more prone to get knocked out too early''. Great. -__-
JD has 2 more finals overall than Flash I think, but he's also been a progamer for at least 1 year longer than Flash. Flash also has several more Ro16 appearances in OSL compared to JD.
We are forgetting about 2010 way too fast IMO. Flash deserves more benefit of doubt than some people seem to give him.
You are still holding on to the past. This is suppose to be a MONTHLY power ranking.
First off, in this case I'm not really arguing about Flash's position on the PR, I'm mostly annoyed by the statement that Flash is ''more prone to get knocked out too early'' Secondly, go back and read past PRs. It has rarely been about only the results of the past month. Past performances (which influences the likelihood of the player keeping it up), quality of the games, quality of the opposition etc are all important factors. It's down to the PR writer to find the appropriate mix, and it's not really set in stone.
Could you explain why "flash is more prone to be knocked out too early?"
He's arguing the exact opposite, which is made very clear in the thread. Elroi made a comment about Flash being prone to early losses in Starleagues, which seems to fly in the face of him making the finals of the last 6 leagues before this. |
| | Not a big fan of Nada. There, I said it. | |
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| StylishVODs Sweden. January 23 2011 06:23. Posts 4988 | Profile # |
On January 23 2011 04:12 Mortality wrote:
Not at all more accurate. I'm going to be rough on you: you're only saying that because you know Flash would benefit and you're saying "who gives a fuck?" about every single other progamer. Only #1 matters and it has to be Flash. Which is a very dick thing to say no matter how much of a fanboy you are.
I have no Idea where this came from. You need to calm down, all I said was I'd like it to be discussed.
So you want the rank to be more based on recent results. Meaning PR would show performance last month in a rank, maybe thats a PR you'd prefer and thats fine.
I'd like it to be more of a "best player now" rank.
At the moment, yes Flash would benefit from the type of PR I like more, because he has earned it. If someone else steps up he will earn it aswell it's not like I don't give a shit about anyone else.
Whatever comparisons you make to Bisu or most other players doesn't compare to flashs dominance last year which has been unique, so pointing out that he dropped 5 spots isn't really the same thing.
Putting faith in Kal was misplaced yes, and imo it was obvious that Kal didn't suddenly become better than jaedong and flash because he made it to Ro8 in a starleague.
I don't want Flash as #1 at all costs, I want the best player at #1 in most PRs.
Try keeping it civilized.Last edit: 2011-01-23 06:33:38 |
| | According to Reach, he is the fastest learner he has ever seen. He start bw only like 2/3 years ago. Infact, his bw history knowledge is so limited, he didn't even know what the map Guillotine was. | |
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| nodule Canada. January 23 2011 06:54. Posts 931 | Profile # |
well, it's not obvious that Kal's placement was wrong just because he had a shitty january. The PR, even though it should take into account the writer's opinion about whether good results are just flukes and will continue into the future, isn't really meant to be predictive.
That said, Kal's december wasn't great, with a losing record in proleague. Despite that, putting Kal at #3 is the kind of call I want the PR writer to be able to make: seeing something in the play of a player that elevates him above the rest. |
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| Malinor Germany. January 23 2011 07:16. Posts 4171 | Profile # |
On January 23 2011 06:23 StylishVODs wrote:
Show nested quote +On January 23 2011 04:12 Mortality wrote:
Not at all more accurate. I'm going to be rough on you: you're only saying that because you know Flash would benefit and you're saying "who gives a fuck?" about every single other progamer. Only #1 matters and it has to be Flash. Which is a very dick thing to say no matter how much of a fanboy you are.
At the moment, yes Flash would benefit from the type of PR I like more, because he has earned it. If someone else steps up he will earn it aswell it's not like I don't give a shit about anyone else. Whatever comparisons you make to Bisu or most other players doesn't compare to flashs dominance last year which has been unique, so pointing out that he dropped 5 spots isn't really the same thing. I don't want Flash as #1 at all costs, I want the best player at #1 in most PRs.
I just want to mention again that this is kind of the problem right now: It is very hard for any player right now to show that he is better than Flash, because he cannot beat Flash in a SL BoX situation, because Flash is just not there yet. This more "feeling"-orientated rank is really hard to do.
I myself apply a very similar logic as Mortality: A player in both leagues (Kal) can very reasonably be ranked above a player in no league, even if his name is Flash. Loses just needs to be punished somehow (and as a side note, Kal also had some nice ace-game performances). Of course we can argue if Flash really had to drop all the way down to #5, but I am 100% sure that we would have the same discussion right now if Flash was at #3 or #4.
+ Show Spoiler +On another note, I am actually pretty tired about the fact, that 3/4 of the time we are not discussing players performances, but how the PR should be. The PR is just a journalistic column, and when the writer changes, the rules change. If as a reader you don't like it, that's simply your problem, you don't need to read it. It is not as if Flamewheel is applying unreasonable standards for ranking the players, it's just dofferent than before. Some discussion is fine, but we repeat the same discussion every second page now |
| | "Withstand. Suffer. Live as you must now live. There will, one day, be answer to this." ||| "A life, Jimmy, you know what that is? It's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come." |  |
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| Musoeun United States. January 23 2011 08:39. Posts 4324 | Profile Blog # |
On January 22 2011 16:16 StylishVODs wrote:
Somehow I feel like PR is turning into a short term KeSPA rank.
They're almost the same except results last longer in the other.
Would be nice to have a rank of the current "Best player", with an objective writer basing his ranks on what he feels to be true and not purely based on results.
I feel as if the old PRs were more based on the feelings of an PR writer who tried to be objective.
Right now, if I log in and I know nothing about starcraft, I would actually believe that Kal is a better player than Flash and Jaedong. It just feels so wrong because we all know he obviously isn't.
First, Kal: I'd just point out that when this rank was done Kal was pretty much on fire, with the only question mark being some dumb PL losses. But he'd recently beaten Flash, split with Bisu (and won the ace match), etc. etc.
Then he fell off the face of the planet this month, which is why if he shows up at all he should be 9 or 10, and is why he's not as good a player overall as Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu - arguably even Calm, fantasy, Sea, etc.
But Kal totally deserved his PR spot this month.
Second, the PR and "best player". If anything - and FakeSteve is example number one here - the older PRs were as often as not "based on the feelings of a PR writer who" was being amazingly subjective. The problem with writing the PR is that you have raw results (objective) on the one hand, and quality of games, closeness of games, etc., which are either subjective or at least open to interpretation on the other, and the PR writer has to consider both of those (facts and feelings) and write something that's both entertaining and reasonably accurate.
ELO is objective. KeSPA rank, since it's got fairly defined criteria, is fairly objective. PR has no really strictly defined criteria and is therefore subjective - the writer should treat it as an opinion piece. IMO. |
| | Don't Shoot the Penguins. | Dance, 성은, dance! | Killer FanKlub | Action sucks. | Storm Terran hwaiting. |  |
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| sokPIZZAZZ United States. January 23 2011 11:12. Posts 6 | Profile # |
LETS GO JAEDONG  |
| | You gotta do what you gotta do |
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 disciple Administrator January 23 2011 11:12. | Profile Blog # |
| I cannot express how much better Bisu and Stork are than anyone else. FW you cant justify Bisu being below #3 hell, you have no arguments for putting Flash above him. Will it be because only one game on T favored map? Really? Or because the 2 loses to Stork in the MSL. Stork is simply the best player right now, Bisu is a close second, his PvZ is like the second coming of Jesus. |
| | When you play the game of drones you win or you die. |  |
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| Mooncat Germany. January 23 2011 11:19. Posts 1228 | Profile # |
We can all agree that the PR writer is or at least should be a very knowledgeable person when it comes Starcraft, right? Thus he should be able to subjectively decide which players are currently the Top10 by watching their games and actually judging their play independent of results. And that's exactly how FakeSteve did it if I remember correctly. This is what differentiated the PR distinctly from rankings like ELO or KeSPA.
If you lose 5 games in a row, obviously you're gonna lose a lot of ELO/KeSPA points. But what if those 5 games were against cream of the crop players who totally brought their S-game? Or even against mediocre players who just had a really good day. You can still have played very, very well and still have lost. Does that make you a worse player than XY who won 5 games playing terribly because his opponent played even worse? It doesn't. And that's what should be reflected in the PR imho.
Of course this requires the PR writer to watch each and every game basically, which is a lot I admit, but that's what my ideal PR would look like. Results and/or leagues should play little to no role in the PR placement imho, only what skill the players actually show in their games really matters. Certain factors like legit reasons why a player doesn't show as brilliant play as another do have to be considered however. It's only natural that your average game quality suffers a bit if you have to play loads of games for example.(being active in all 3 leagues, carrying your team almost single-handedly, etc.) I know it's not that simple, especially not simple enough to put it in 3 small paragraphs, but you get my drill I think.
That all being said, I do respect PR writers having entirely different standards on how to rank the players appropriately, as long as their reasoning is sound, transparent and comprehensible. Flamewheel does just that as far as I'm concerned. He may have different standards than previous PR writers, but he does apply those same standards to every player on the PR. Thus I don't have a problem with Flash's placement for example and I guess it wouldn't make sense for him to suddenly jump to No. 1 again for the exact same reasons. |
| | "[Lee Young Ho] With this victory, you’ve risen to Bonjwa status." |  |
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| Mortality United States. January 23 2011 11:28. Posts 4790 | Profile Blog # |
On January 23 2011 06:23 StylishVODs wrote:
Show nested quote +On January 23 2011 04:12 Mortality wrote:
Not at all more accurate. I'm going to be rough on you: you're only saying that because you know Flash would benefit and you're saying "who gives a fuck?" about every single other progamer. Only #1 matters and it has to be Flash. Which is a very dick thing to say no matter how much of a fanboy you are.
I have no Idea where this came from. You need to calm down, all I said was I'd like it to be discussed. So you want the rank to be more based on recent results. Meaning PR would show performance last month in a rank, maybe thats a PR you'd prefer and thats fine. I'd like it to be more of a "best player now" rank. At the moment, yes Flash would benefit from the type of PR I like more, because he has earned it. If someone else steps up he will earn it aswell it's not like I don't give a shit about anyone else. Whatever comparisons you make to Bisu or most other players doesn't compare to flashs dominance last year which has been unique, so pointing out that he dropped 5 spots isn't really the same thing. Putting faith in Kal was misplaced yes, and imo it was obvious that Kal didn't suddenly become better than jaedong and flash because he made it to Ro8 in a starleague. I don't want Flash as #1 at all costs, I want the best player at #1 in most PRs. Try keeping it civilized.
Deciding Power Rank based on purely on "feelings" is not something that has ever been done. Nor should it ever be done. To do so would be to deny credibility to the PR. And if we are talking about results attained this season, then the player with the best results is the #1 on PR -- Stork.
You are one step short of pulling a tfeign right now. "Objective" and "feelings" do not go together. By definition, feelings add subjectivity to the ranking.
When the data does not provide what you wish, you alter the context and pretend you are speaking with the voice of reason. No. Flash dropped the ball and was punished for it. Whether or not Kal is better than Flash is irrelevant. Placing Flash in a ranking based purely on imaginary ability to win a Bo5 against anyone would have been nothing but contentious and would have sparked tremendous controversy. Your inability to see that frightens me. |
| | Even though this Proleague bullshit has been completely bogus, I really, really, really do not see how Khan can lose this. I swear I will kill myself if they do. - nesix before KHAN lost to eNature |
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| Holgerius Sweden. January 23 2011 11:43. Posts 16798 | Profile Blog # |
On January 23 2011 11:12 disciple wrote:
I cannot express how much better Bisu and Stork are than anyone else. FW you cant justify Bisu being below #3 hell, you have no arguments for putting Flash above him. Will it be because only one game on T favored map? Really? Or because the 2 loses to Stork in the MSL. Stork is simply the best player right now, Bisu is a close second, his PvZ is like the second coming of Jesus.
You really think Bisu is that much better than Flash? |
| | I believe in the almighty Grötslev! -- I am never serious and you should never believe a thing I say. Including the previous sentence. | |
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| Monkeyshark United States. January 23 2011 11:49. Posts 406 | Profile # |
On January 23 2011 11:12 disciple wrote:
I cannot express how much better Bisu and Stork are than anyone else. FW you cant justify Bisu being below #3 hell, you have no arguments for putting Flash above him. Will it be because only one game on T favored map? Really? Or because the 2 loses to Stork in the MSL. Stork is simply the best player right now, Bisu is a close second, his PvZ is like the second coming of Jesus.
I don't agree with the first thing you said but I do agree that Bisu should stick to number 2. He has the PR momentum of being #2 last month and he isn't showing any decline in his play. |
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 ]343[ United States. January 23 2011 11:55. Posts 8153 | Profile Blog # |
On January 23 2011 11:12 disciple wrote:
I cannot express how much better Bisu and Stork are than anyone else. FW you cant justify Bisu being below #3 hell, you have no arguments for putting Flash above him. Will it be because only one game on T favored map? Really? Or because the 2 loses to Stork in the MSL. Stork is simply the best player right now, Bisu is a close second, his PvZ is like the second coming of Jesus.
lololol good one |
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