| YouGotNothin United States. July 26 2012 02:41. Posts 344 | Profile Blog # |
I tried pheonix again and I just can't get kills on ganks, I find it hard to get 3 auto attacks off to proc the phoenix when people are running away, especially early levels, and if I don't proc it then I dont do shit for damage.
maybe this is the solution I've been looking for:
http://www.solomid.net/guides.php?g=30605
seems interesting but so little turtle seems kind of scary to me, but then again turtle in teamfights is really only good for the shield which isn't that strong. |
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| Lmui Canada. July 26 2012 02:55. Posts 2062 | Profile # |
| If you can get on top of someone to get the first autoattack off it should be easy to get the next two off. You can't just attack move at them or right click them. You have to attack, move, attack, move, attack (aka stutterstep). With the one second stun from bear, you can get on top of them enough that - especially with MS quints - it's impossible to not get hit by 3 phoenix attacks without a flash. Last edit: 2012-07-26 02:59:52 |
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| Slayer91 Ireland. July 26 2012 02:57. Posts 8997 | Profile # |
| If you're having trouble with pheonix udyr I assure you you're the problem not the champion. You should almost always have red buff when you're ganking and you need to gank from behind them and stutter step your hits so your stun them--> run towards their tower-->hit r-->hit-->run etc. It's not as easy mode as tiger ganking but pheonix udyr is one of the best junglers in the game while tiger udyr is just gimmicky and you rely on kills to be effective later. |
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| xes July 26 2012 03:11. Posts 1390 | Profile # |
I experimented a little with tiger/phoenix udyr jungle following the guide, and your jungle is a lot less safe. Even though clears are just as fast due to the tiger AS buff + passive giving insanely fast phoenix procs along with the frontloaded tiger damage, I still took enough damage that after a full clear I'd be 1-2 bars lower HP than running phoenix/turtle. With phoenix/turtle I could do a full clear and be at near max hp and have time before camp respawns to do whatever I wanted on the map safely.
It might be better if you add in wriggles to the tiger based jungle but the fact that phoenix can skip wriggles means a faster recurve or phage. |
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| sylverfyre United States. July 26 2012 03:25. Posts 4157 | Profile # |
On July 26 2012 02:41 YouGotNothin wrote:I tried pheonix again and I just can't get kills on ganks, I find it hard to get 3 auto attacks off to proc the phoenix when people are running away, especially early levels, and if I don't proc it then I dont do shit for damage. maybe this is the solution I've been looking for: http://www.solomid.net/guides.php?g=30605seems interesting but so little turtle seems kind of scary to me, but then again turtle in teamfights is really only good for the shield which isn't that strong.
Maxing phoenix by 9 is what makes your jungle clear so ridiculously fast - it's not just for your level 1 clearing. Also, not having level 5 bear later on means your overall mobility takes a pretty significant hit since late game when travelling around you are often getting the movespeed steroid from hitting bearstance permenantly (with some CDR), and both the MS bonus and the duration increase when you level bear. Dropping that longer duration movespeed bonus also makes it harder to stick to targets in teamfights later on as well, which means you will get kited EVEN HARDER. Udyr already has enough problems getting kited - losing your extra movespeed won't help.
Work on your stutterstep micro with udyr, you're so fast that if you can get 1 auto attack off, you can get all 3 off unless they flash. If they flash and you can't catch back up - you might rely on CC from your lanemate to determine this - don't worry, it's still a successful gank. From there you can pitch a tent in the brush, go farm a few jungle camps and re-gank, or leave your laner with the slight advantage that a burnt summoner provides. DO NOT FLASH AFTER THEM UNLESS IT IS A SURE KILL. |
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 TheYango United States. July 26 2012 03:41. Posts 16306 | Profile # |
On July 26 2012 02:41 YouGotNothin wrote:
I tried pheonix again and I just can't get kills on ganks, I find it hard to get 3 auto attacks off to proc the phoenix when people are running away, especially early levels, and if I don't proc it then I dont do shit for damage.
When are you buying boots/boots 2?
Typically you gank with red buff, but even without it, boots MS advantage + Bear Stance should keep you on them for 3 hits. If you're buying/upgrading boots too late, then yeah it'll be hard to stick on ganks. But typically you should be hitting boots 2 at the same time as, or even earlier than, most laners.Last edit: 2012-07-26 03:42:45 |
| | 如果有一天星际没有了,如果有一天DOTA没有了,我不会消失. |
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| Shadowpostin Germany. July 26 2012 04:25. Posts 185 | Profile # |
| Maybe he doesn't have the right runes/mastery setup.If you don't have MS quints and MS mastery from defense and utility tree than your doing it wrong.You should have 405 MS with boots+3pot start(if you have a janna,which I recommend you ask for one if you jungle udyr,ups your MS to 416 I think with the janna passive at lvl 1) and with red buff you don't even have to have great stutter step to get the phoenix proc off. Last edit: 2012-07-26 04:26:55 |
| | allow me to demonstrate the skill of shaolin |
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| Bladeorade United States. July 26 2012 04:38. Posts 904 | Profile # |
| You don't need MS quints on Udyr...I think Udyr benefits more greatly from either AS or Armor quints in the jungle. Having that much MS is overkill. If you have issues proccing phoenix on Udyr, get better. Period. Bear in attack, R move attack move attack move attack. |
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| Shadowpostin Germany. July 26 2012 04:49. Posts 185 | Profile # |
On July 26 2012 04:38 Bladeorade wrote:
You don't need MS quints on Udyr...I think Udyr benefits more greatly from either AS or Armor quints in the jungle. Having that much MS is overkill. If you have issues proccing phoenix on Udyr, get better. Period. Bear in attack, R move attack move attack move attack.
MS is the best stat early game by far.
Armor quints on udyr are the biggest waste because you clear without taking any damage anyway,you are not a top lane to justify that much armor.I don't know much about As quints but if it doesn't get you to a breaking point where you clear that much faster it isn't worth it.All the AS you will ever need you get with rbow.
Udyr is all about MS,there is no such thing as overkill on MS early game for a jungler(unless you need some other stats that bad which udyr doesn't)Last edit: 2012-07-26 04:52:38 |
| | allow me to demonstrate the skill of shaolin |
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| Requizen United States. July 26 2012 04:51. Posts 7541 | Profile Blog # |
| On Skarner, I've been doing Philo - Boots - Kindle - Merc's - Reverie for really early super-sprints. Good for Bro-dyr as well? |
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| koreasilver Canada. July 26 2012 04:56. Posts 7514 | Profile Blog # |
| Why would you need armor quints for Udyr jungle when you shouldn't have any trouble sustaining with turtle, and why would you need AS quints when AS marks is plenty enough to clear the jungle very quickly. MS quints are more useful than either of the alternatives. |
| | "I don't think that the polls accurately reflect how far this race has swung in Romney's favor. I'm still expecting a landslide victory for Romney." - TL's very own Nostradamous, xDaunt |
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| TheYango United States. July 26 2012 04:57. Posts 16306 | Profile # |
On July 26 2012 04:51 Requizen wrote:
On Skarner, I've been doing Philo - Boots - Kindle - Merc's - Reverie for really early super-sprints. Good for Bro-dyr as well?
More situational. Skarner has the obvious gain in initiating power, but Reverie isn't as big of an increase to Udyr's teamfight strength, and he doesn't need the regen stats as much as Skarner does. It's still a powerful ganking item in long laning phases, but I wouldn't get it as often as I do on Skarner. |
| | 如果有一天星际没有了,如果有一天DOTA没有了,我不会消失. |
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| arb Noobville. July 26 2012 05:13. Posts 11221 | Profile Blog # |
On July 26 2012 04:57 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 26 2012 04:51 Requizen wrote:
On Skarner, I've been doing Philo - Boots - Kindle - Merc's - Reverie for really early super-sprints. Good for Bro-dyr as well?
More situational. Skarner has the obvious gain in initiating power, but Reverie isn't as big of an increase to Udyr's teamfight strength, and he doesn't need the regen stats as much as Skarner does. It's still a powerful ganking item in long laning phases, but I wouldn't get it as often as I do on Skarner.
I don't think ive ever needed reverie enough to get it over Wits end early |
| | Artillery spawned from the forges of Hell |
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| Requizen United States. July 26 2012 05:14. Posts 7541 | Profile Blog # |
| Donno, sometimes feel like it'd be nice against really mobile lanes that have a jump/dash on top of Flash that can get away from you. |
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| TheYango United States. July 26 2012 05:36. Posts 16306 | Profile # |
On July 26 2012 05:13 arb wrote:
I don't think ive ever needed reverie enough to get it over Wits end early
Not really a good comparison. Assuming you're already getting Philo, the timing of Shurelya's is 800 gold sooner, plus Shurelya's is more influential in ganking bottom lane (Udyr has a harder time ganking past wards than many other junglers, and Shurelya's drastically increases the strength of your in-lane ganks).
The bigger issue is that Shurelya's doesn't improve Udyr's straight teamfighting power as much as Aegis or Wit's, so you have to expect a long laning phase or get a few kills off of it to justify it in comparison to more immediately powerful teamfight items. This is unlike Skarner because Shurelya's is a critical teamfighting item for Skarner, regardless.Last edit: 2012-07-26 05:38:46 |
| | 如果有一天星际没有了,如果有一天DOTA没有了,我不会消失. |
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| Slayer91 Ireland. July 26 2012 05:42. Posts 8997 | Profile # |
| Just dont gank bottom huehue |
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| YouGotNothin United States. July 26 2012 05:48. Posts 344 | Profile Blog # |
Oh wow I did not know that stutter stepping on melee champs was necessary, now I feel like a noob, I will have to try this out, thanks. I am still on the fence about MS quints though, TheOddOne's guide recommends them and they do seem pretty nifty. Gotta go fast!
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| SagaZ France. July 26 2012 06:01. Posts 730 | Profile Blog # |
MS quints, boots and 0 21 9 make you go so ridiculously fast at lvl 1.
<so good for pestering mid lane at every ocasion possible
you still clear faster with ms quint than with as quints cause moving between camps is the most time consuming thing you do in the jungle with phoenix |
| | Be nice, buy wards and don't feed double buff. |
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| Arisen United States. August 02 2012 13:09. Posts 1993 | Profile Blog # |
I have a few questions on Udyr itemization.
1) When is the appropriate time for boots2? Typically I rush philo>HOG I never know when to start merc treads or when I should just be starinting my first damage item. I watched a game from saintvicious at low elo where he finished wits end before even starting boots2, but this seems a bit slow
2) Wits>Phage or Phage>Wits? I've been rushing wits because in my ELO usually you can get ganks without phage, but I dont know if I'm just being greedy
3) After Phage and wits are made, what do you build? Sometimes I want to finish reverie, sometimes I go Randuins, I'm not sure which is better
4) What do you build if you want to carry your team? IN that gae with saint he built the wierdiest items (ionic spark and shit), but he absolutely dominated the entire game. Probably mostly to do with him being a 2500 ELO player in 1200, but I feel sometimes I'm really ahead but can't really make enough things happen with Randuins/Reverie |
| | "If you're not angry, you're not paying attention" |
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| arb Noobville. August 02 2012 17:00. Posts 11221 | Profile Blog # |
On August 02 2012 13:09 Arisen wrote:
I have a few questions on Udyr itemization.
1) When is the appropriate time for boots2? Typically I rush philo>HOG I never know when to start merc treads or when I should just be starinting my first damage item. I watched a game from saintvicious at low elo where he finished wits end before even starting boots2, but this seems a bit slow
2) Wits>Phage or Phage>Wits? I've been rushing wits because in my ELO usually you can get ganks without phage, but I dont know if I'm just being greedy
3) After Phage and wits are made, what do you build? Sometimes I want to finish reverie, sometimes I go Randuins, I'm not sure which is better
4) What do you build if you want to carry your team? IN that gae with saint he built the wierdiest items (ionic spark and shit), but he absolutely dominated the entire game. Probably mostly to do with him being a 2500 ELO player in 1200, but I feel sometimes I'm really ahead but can't really make enough things happen with Randuins/Reverie
Truthfully when i build Udyr i'll usually go
boots > philo > hog > boots 2 > wits/aegis > aegis/wits > randuins or shurelias as needed(game usually ends by this point) but if i get retarded fed i'll get a triforce or something |
| | Artillery spawned from the forges of Hell |
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