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| Malinor Germany. February 16 2011 07:44. Posts 4171 | Profile # |
On February 16 2011 07:31 Mortality wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 06:52 Malinor wrote:
On February 15 2011 11:00 Mumei wrote:
On February 14 2011 11:28 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
holy shit i just looked at flashs record
is he ever going to slump? at worst he loses like 2 or 3 games in a whole month. this has been going on way too long.
Indeed. Flash's level of dominance is really stunning when you really look at it. He's won 76% of his games since January 2009. He actually had at least one stretch where he stayed over 80% over the course of a hundred games. He's regularly in the mid-to-high 80s over the course of shorter periods (like now, when he's 83.33% (35 - 7) since the end of last season, or when he hit 2443 Elo and was at 88% (44 - 6) over the previous 50 games). You can see the explosion in his win-rate between the beginning of 2009 (66.18%) and the middle of February 2011 (72.31%). Flash Graph+ Show Spoiler +Through Month Wins Losses Games Percentage
April 2007 4 0 4 100.00%
May 2007 7 1 8 87.50%
June 2007 14 2 16 87.50%
July 2007 22 12 34 64.71%
August 2007 22 12 34 64.71%
September 2007 24 15 39 61.54%
October 2007 27 17 44 61.36%
November 2007 31 22 53 58.49%
December 2007 39 24 63 61.90%
January 2008 45 27 72 62.50%
February 2008 54 33 87 62.07%
March 2008 57 33 90 63.33%
April 2008 62 34 96 64.58%
May 2008 77 37 114 67.54%
June 2008 86 42 128 67.19%
July 2008 96 50 146 65.75%
August 2008 101 55 156 64.74%
September 2008 105 57 162 64.81%
October 2008 116 62 178 65.17%
November 2008 121 63 184 65.76%
December 2008 133 66 199 66.83%
January 2009 137 70 207 66.18%
February 2009 155 77 232 66.81%
March 2009 158 80 238 66.39%
April 2009 164 82 246 66.67%
May 2009 171 86 257 66.54%
June 2009 186 89 275 67.64%
July 2009 194 94 288 67.36%
August 2009 202 97 299 67.56%
September 2009 202 97 299 67.56%
October 2009 212 97 309 68.61%
November 2009 217 98 315 68.89%
December 2009 233 101 334 69.76%
January 2010 250 108 358 69.83%
February 2010 259 110 369 70.19%
March 2010 269 111 380 70.79%
April 2010 285 114 399 71.43%
May 2010 303 120 423 71.63%
June 2010 308 126 434 70.97%
July 2010 314 128 442 71.04%
August 2010 335 135 470 71.28%
September 2010 341 137 478 71.34%
October 2010 345 138 483 71.43%
November 2010 353 138 491 71.89%
December 2010 360 143 503 71.57%
January 2011 372 144 516 72.09%
Could you do the same thing (the graph and the monthly-list in spoilers) for Jaedong also. Don't know how much time it would take you, but I would be very curious to see this for him as well. That's such an informative piece of statistics.
As much as I love hard numbers, it's important to note that these kind of statistics only tell so much of the picture. For Flash, the ability to win Starleagues always went hand-in-hand with all around dominating statistics. For Jaedong I think the key has always been his tenacity in Bo5's.
I don't really know what your intention here is. If your post is towards me or you wanna tell everyone that these numbers won't tell us everything there is to now.
I just would love to see the same graph for Jaedong, because I'm interested in his win-percentage over time and compared to Flash. Nothing more and nothing less. I'm not gonna try to draw any wild conclusions from this. As I said, I find this statistic very informative and very interesting.
(@ Mumei: I obviously can go through TLPD myself and look these numbers up, just htinking if you have a script for this, that would probably be easier)
Last edit: 2011-02-16 07:45:29 |
| | "Withstand. Suffer. Live as you must now live. There will, one day, be answer to this." ||| "A life, Jimmy, you know what that is? It's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come." |  |
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| okum Austria. February 16 2011 08:07. Posts 5700 | Profile Blog # |
With a simple modification of the barcode script, I can plot say Flash and Jaedong's win % for you: http://imgur.com/fUspU
Note that the x axis is proportional to games played, and not uniform in time. |
| | I was a Flash fan before it was cool | Coiner of "jangbang" |  |
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| Holgerius Sweden. February 16 2011 08:13. Posts 16797 | Profile Blog # |
On February 16 2011 08:07 okum wrote:With a simple modification of the barcode script, I can plot say Flash and Jaedong's win % for you: http://imgur.com/fUspUNote that the x axis is proportional to games played, and not uniform in time.
Sweet.  Flash's graph from around the 300 game mark and onwards is fucking insane. |
| | I believe in the almighty Grötslev! -- I am never serious and you should never believe a thing I say. Including the previous sentence. | |
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| Bwenjarin Raffrack United States. February 16 2011 08:33. Posts 299 | Profile # |
On February 16 2011 06:52 Malinor wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 15 2011 11:00 Mumei wrote:
On February 14 2011 11:28 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
holy shit i just looked at flashs record
is he ever going to slump? at worst he loses like 2 or 3 games in a whole month. this has been going on way too long.
Indeed. Flash's level of dominance is really stunning when you really look at it. He's won 76% of his games since January 2009. He actually had at least one stretch where he stayed over 80% over the course of a hundred games. He's regularly in the mid-to-high 80s over the course of shorter periods (like now, when he's 83.33% (35 - 7) since the end of last season, or when he hit 2443 Elo and was at 88% (44 - 6) over the previous 50 games). You can see the explosion in his win-rate between the beginning of 2009 (66.18%) and the middle of February 2011 (72.31%). Flash Graph+ Show Spoiler +Through Month Wins Losses Games Percentage
April 2007 4 0 4 100.00%
May 2007 7 1 8 87.50%
June 2007 14 2 16 87.50%
July 2007 22 12 34 64.71%
August 2007 22 12 34 64.71%
September 2007 24 15 39 61.54%
October 2007 27 17 44 61.36%
November 2007 31 22 53 58.49%
December 2007 39 24 63 61.90%
January 2008 45 27 72 62.50%
February 2008 54 33 87 62.07%
March 2008 57 33 90 63.33%
April 2008 62 34 96 64.58%
May 2008 77 37 114 67.54%
June 2008 86 42 128 67.19%
July 2008 96 50 146 65.75%
August 2008 101 55 156 64.74%
September 2008 105 57 162 64.81%
October 2008 116 62 178 65.17%
November 2008 121 63 184 65.76%
December 2008 133 66 199 66.83%
January 2009 137 70 207 66.18%
February 2009 155 77 232 66.81%
March 2009 158 80 238 66.39%
April 2009 164 82 246 66.67%
May 2009 171 86 257 66.54%
June 2009 186 89 275 67.64%
July 2009 194 94 288 67.36%
August 2009 202 97 299 67.56%
September 2009 202 97 299 67.56%
October 2009 212 97 309 68.61%
November 2009 217 98 315 68.89%
December 2009 233 101 334 69.76%
January 2010 250 108 358 69.83%
February 2010 259 110 369 70.19%
March 2010 269 111 380 70.79%
April 2010 285 114 399 71.43%
May 2010 303 120 423 71.63%
June 2010 308 126 434 70.97%
July 2010 314 128 442 71.04%
August 2010 335 135 470 71.28%
September 2010 341 137 478 71.34%
October 2010 345 138 483 71.43%
November 2010 353 138 491 71.89%
December 2010 360 143 503 71.57%
January 2011 372 144 516 72.09%
Could you do the same thing (the graph and the monthly-list in spoilers) for Jaedong also. Don't know how much time it would take you, but I would be very curious to see this for him as well. That's such an informative piece of statistics.
He made a whole blog post about it with many other players included. Really impressive considering he searched TLPD by hand. Last edit: 2011-02-16 08:34:48 |
| | I'm not as thunk as dreople pink I am. |
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| Mumei United States. February 16 2011 09:55. Posts 223 | Profile Blog # |
Hey, thanks for linking to it.
I haven't the foggiest idea how to modify the barcode script, so I did it by hand. And Jaedong really is the picture of consistency. He's averaged 69.23% since the end of January 2009 (234 - 104). Since the start of the new season, he's gone - gasp - 69.23% (36 - 16).
Even when he slumps he's consistent! |
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| Malinor Germany. February 16 2011 17:28. Posts 4171 | Profile # |
On February 16 2011 08:33 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 06:52 Malinor wrote:
On February 15 2011 11:00 Mumei wrote:
On February 14 2011 11:28 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
holy shit i just looked at flashs record
is he ever going to slump? at worst he loses like 2 or 3 games in a whole month. this has been going on way too long.
Indeed. Flash's level of dominance is really stunning when you really look at it. He's won 76% of his games since January 2009. He actually had at least one stretch where he stayed over 80% over the course of a hundred games. He's regularly in the mid-to-high 80s over the course of shorter periods (like now, when he's 83.33% (35 - 7) since the end of last season, or when he hit 2443 Elo and was at 88% (44 - 6) over the previous 50 games). You can see the explosion in his win-rate between the beginning of 2009 (66.18%) and the middle of February 2011 (72.31%). Flash Graph+ Show Spoiler +Through Month Wins Losses Games Percentage
April 2007 4 0 4 100.00%
May 2007 7 1 8 87.50%
June 2007 14 2 16 87.50%
July 2007 22 12 34 64.71%
August 2007 22 12 34 64.71%
September 2007 24 15 39 61.54%
October 2007 27 17 44 61.36%
November 2007 31 22 53 58.49%
December 2007 39 24 63 61.90%
January 2008 45 27 72 62.50%
February 2008 54 33 87 62.07%
March 2008 57 33 90 63.33%
April 2008 62 34 96 64.58%
May 2008 77 37 114 67.54%
June 2008 86 42 128 67.19%
July 2008 96 50 146 65.75%
August 2008 101 55 156 64.74%
September 2008 105 57 162 64.81%
October 2008 116 62 178 65.17%
November 2008 121 63 184 65.76%
December 2008 133 66 199 66.83%
January 2009 137 70 207 66.18%
February 2009 155 77 232 66.81%
March 2009 158 80 238 66.39%
April 2009 164 82 246 66.67%
May 2009 171 86 257 66.54%
June 2009 186 89 275 67.64%
July 2009 194 94 288 67.36%
August 2009 202 97 299 67.56%
September 2009 202 97 299 67.56%
October 2009 212 97 309 68.61%
November 2009 217 98 315 68.89%
December 2009 233 101 334 69.76%
January 2010 250 108 358 69.83%
February 2010 259 110 369 70.19%
March 2010 269 111 380 70.79%
April 2010 285 114 399 71.43%
May 2010 303 120 423 71.63%
June 2010 308 126 434 70.97%
July 2010 314 128 442 71.04%
August 2010 335 135 470 71.28%
September 2010 341 137 478 71.34%
October 2010 345 138 483 71.43%
November 2010 353 138 491 71.89%
December 2010 360 143 503 71.57%
January 2011 372 144 516 72.09%
Could you do the same thing (the graph and the monthly-list in spoilers) for Jaedong also. Don't know how much time it would take you, but I would be very curious to see this for him as well. That's such an informative piece of statistics.
He made a whole blog post about it with many other players included. Really impressive considering he searched TLPD by hand.
Wow, I missed that thread. Thank you very much for showing it to me.
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| | "Withstand. Suffer. Live as you must now live. There will, one day, be answer to this." ||| "A life, Jimmy, you know what that is? It's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come." | |
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| Holgerius Sweden. February 16 2011 19:13. Posts 16797 | Profile Blog # |
| JD still looking weak vs top players and Bisu still looking questionable in his PvT (but holy fuck his PvZ!!!). =/ |
| | I believe in the almighty Grötslev! -- I am never serious and you should never believe a thing I say. Including the previous sentence. | |
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| Goragoth New Zealand. February 16 2011 19:44. Posts 689 | Profile Blog # |
On February 16 2011 19:13 Holgerius wrote:
JD still looking weak vs top players and Bisu still looking questionable in his PvT (but holy fuck his PvZ!!!). =/
It's hard to draw any conclusions regarding Jaedong from this loss considering his past record. Remember he's only ever won a single PL match against Bisu and none against Stork. There are just some players that he has a terrible track record against in PL. The only real "OMG Jaedong slump!" indicator IMO was losing a ZvZ Bo5 with nothing else going on. That's not something that has ever happened before or even looked remotely likely until now (the loss against Calm really doesn't count considering the circumstances at the time).
I still hope that it's just because Hydra is better than JD in his prime, rather than due to JD's skill decreasing but only time will tell.
Seriously though people, Jaedong losing in PL against Bisu/Stork/Light isn't really news, it's just business as usual (most of those games even look the same, for example against Bisu he usually goes for a greedy macro build and gets rolled when he doesn't have enough to defend against Bisu's Zealot aggression, or against Light most games are some sort of all-in/semi-all-in lurker-first weird builds). I wouldn't worry too much about him until he starts to drop more than the occasional game to lesser players, or starts to regularly get knocked out of the individual leagues early. I'd certainly wait a while before crowning Hydra as #1 Zerg, he has much to prove regarding consistency. EffOrt briefly looked better than Jaedong too, before hitting deep slumps. |
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| mnesthes February 16 2011 19:52. Posts 4995 | Profile Blog # |
Flash's stats after R2 of SPL: 18-2 (90%)
Flash's stats when he loses to Zero in R3: 27-3 (90%)
Flash's stats at R3's end: 36-4 (90%)
LOL
That's like 9 wins for each loss |
| | Always a rebel at heart. | |
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| bearbuddy February 16 2011 22:07. Posts 3087 | Profile Blog # |
| Further proof that Flash is a machine. |
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 Lightwip United States. February 16 2011 22:42. Posts 5497 | Profile Blog # |
On February 16 2011 19:13 Holgerius wrote:
JD still looking weak vs top players and Bisu still looking questionable in his PvT (but holy fuck his PvZ!!!). =/
Erm, Bisu questionable in PvT? He loses 2 games, 1 to Flash, 1 to someone who took a game off Stork(Bisu had a pretty bad BO disadvantage), and won the rest of his games with solid play and that makes his PvT questionable?
By the same logic, I could say that Flash needs work in TvZ lategame judging only from his game vs Zero.
Honestly, the only thing questionable about Bisu's play is his games vs Stork. |
| | If you are not Bisu, chances are I hate you. |  |
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| Fishmalk February 17 2011 02:23. Posts 70 | Profile # |
On February 16 2011 22:42 Lightwip wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 19:13 Holgerius wrote:
JD still looking weak vs top players and Bisu still looking questionable in his PvT (but holy fuck his PvZ!!!). =/
Erm, Bisu questionable in PvT? He loses 2 games, 1 to Flash, 1 to someone who took a game off Stork(Bisu had a pretty bad BO disadvantage), and won the rest of his games with solid play and that makes his PvT questionable? By the same logic, I could say that Flash needs work in TvZ lategame judging only from his game vs Zero. Honestly, the only thing questionable about Bisu's play is his games vs Stork.
Bisu didn't play Sea, and he can't play Fantasy. These two, plus Hiya and Flash, are the only decent TvPers. An in-shape Baby would also qualify, but Baby hasn't been in shape all season. |
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| _romantic United States. February 17 2011 02:37. Posts 455 | Profile Blog # |
On February 16 2011 22:42 Lightwip wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 19:13 Holgerius wrote:
JD still looking weak vs top players and Bisu still looking questionable in his PvT (but holy fuck his PvZ!!!). =/
Erm, Bisu questionable in PvT? He loses 2 games, 1 to Flash, 1 to someone who took a game off Stork(Bisu had a pretty bad BO disadvantage), and won the rest of his games with solid play and that makes his PvT questionable? By the same logic, I could say that Flash needs work in TvZ lategame judging only from his game vs Zero. Honestly, the only thing questionable about Bisu's play is his games vs Stork.
By what logic?
Bisu has historically never had a strong PvT. He has never demonstrated consistent dominance in the matchup. Bisu has never won a PvT individual league finals. Hence, his default position going into this month is one of questionable skill. The two losses in Winners' League do not negate that trend. Bisu needs to demonstrate a month of dominance in PvT before that claim can be changed.
Flash, on the other hand, is 3-1 in Bo5 Finals versus Jaedong, and has a 69.8% winrate in TvZ versus Bisu's 61% winrate in PvT. Hence his TvZ position going into the month is one of unquestioned dominance. To prove that point: if you had to bet on a terran to win against any zerg, which terran would you pick? The vast majority of Starcraft watchers would pick Flash (with a section picking Light, but only a small section). But if you had to pick a protoss to win against any terran, would the vast majority pick Bisu? Hell, more people would pick Stork or Snow in that situation. Flash's loss against Zero doesn't negate that dominance.
Does that logic make sense to you?
Most PvT losses are BO losses anyhow--the matchup is the single one least susceptible to multitask/mechanics and most susceptible to game sense and management. Look at the recent Fantasy vs Stork series. Did Fanta win through superior multitask? Hell naw, he was fighting single-front battles with less than 36 units for most of the game time. By that logic it's well acknowledged on TL that Bisu has the best multitask of any P but only mediocre game sense. Hence his BO loss in PvT can strengthen that claim.
And it's not like when he gets advantageous BOs he wins either. Look at his game versus Flash. Bisu was in a position where he could expand once to 5 bases, play it safe, and seal the deal on Icarus. Instead, Bisu decides to triple expand to seven bases, knowing full well that he is playing someone with OoV/Savior-caliber game sense and timings, and who plays Terran, the race that can catch you expanding without ever leaving their base by pressing "0" and "s". Trying to excuse that sort of mistake is like blaming the campus slut for having STDs after you decided to ride bareback. |
| | Jaedong beats other players. Bisu beats other players, in PL. Flash beats Starcraft. | |
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| Demand2k Norway. February 17 2011 03:24. Posts 545 | Profile Blog # |
I can't really recall Bisu ever looking strong PvT. I feel like older PvTs (pre 2009ish) very often warranted the terran player's discredit, more so than credit to the toss. It's still extremely rare to feel convinced by the MU itself unless it involves Flash, Fantasy or Sea, and sometimes Hiya.
I've watched alot of Bisu's games for the past three years, and the only S-class PvT I can think of is vs. Flash on HBR. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/28867_Bisu_vs_Flash if anyone wants to see the vod, amazing game that even Flash fans can appreciate, as the loss is as honest as they come.
Last edit: 2011-02-17 03:25:30 |
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| HopLight Sweden. February 17 2011 05:55. Posts 858 | Profile Blog # |
On February 16 2011 22:42 Lightwip wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 19:13 Holgerius wrote:
JD still looking weak vs top players and Bisu still looking questionable in his PvT (but holy fuck his PvZ!!!). =/
Erm, Bisu questionable in PvT? He loses 2 games, 1 to Flash, 1 to someone who took a game off Stork(Bisu had a pretty bad BO disadvantage), and won the rest of his games with solid play and that makes his PvT questionable? By the same logic, I could say that Flash needs work in TvZ lategame judging only from his game vs Zero. Honestly, the only thing questionable about Bisu's play is his games vs Stork.
Questionable doesn't really mean bad it means there are still some question marks he needs to straighten out. Compared to his other matchups where he is doing awesomely he is only 4-2 (2011) vs T and his games in themselves look a little shaky (compared to his other matchups). I'd still place him top 3 PvT as of now, it is however hi most questionable matchup until he starts consistently beating some good TvPers like Sea, Fantasy, Hiya or Flash. |
| | Flash, Hoejja, JangBi | |
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| Assymptotic United States. February 17 2011 06:12. Posts 550 | Profile # |
On February 17 2011 02:37 l0st_romantic wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 22:42 Lightwip wrote:
On February 16 2011 19:13 Holgerius wrote:
JD still looking weak vs top players and Bisu still looking questionable in his PvT (but holy fuck his PvZ!!!). =/
Erm, Bisu questionable in PvT? He loses 2 games, 1 to Flash, 1 to someone who took a game off Stork(Bisu had a pretty bad BO disadvantage), and won the rest of his games with solid play and that makes his PvT questionable? By the same logic, I could say that Flash needs work in TvZ lategame judging only from his game vs Zero. Honestly, the only thing questionable about Bisu's play is his games vs Stork.
By what logic? Bisu has historically never had a strong PvT. He has never demonstrated consistent dominance in the matchup. Bisu has never won a PvT individual league finals. Hence, his default position going into this month is one of questionable skill. The two losses in Winners' League do not negate that trend. Bisu needs to demonstrate a month of dominance in PvT before that claim can be changed. Flash, on the other hand, is 3-1 in Bo5 Finals versus Jaedong, and has a 69.8% winrate in TvZ versus Bisu's 61% winrate in PvT. Hence his TvZ position going into the month is one of unquestioned dominance. To prove that point: if you had to bet on a terran to win against any zerg, which terran would you pick? The vast majority of Starcraft watchers would pick Flash (with a section picking Light, but only a small section). But if you had to pick a protoss to win against any terran, would the vast majority pick Bisu? Hell, more people would pick Stork or Snow in that situation. Flash's loss against Zero doesn't negate that dominance. Does that logic make sense to you? Most PvT losses are BO losses anyhow--the matchup is the single one least susceptible to multitask/mechanics and most susceptible to game sense and management. Look at the recent Fantasy vs Stork series. Did Fanta win through superior multitask? Hell naw, he was fighting single-front battles with less than 36 units for most of the game time. By that logic it's well acknowledged on TL that Bisu has the best multitask of any P but only mediocre game sense. Hence his BO loss in PvT can strengthen that claim. And it's not like when he gets advantageous BOs he wins either. Look at his game versus Flash. Bisu was in a position where he could expand once to 5 bases, play it safe, and seal the deal on Icarus. Instead, Bisu decides to triple expand to seven bases, knowing full well that he is playing someone with OoV/Savior-caliber game sense and timings, and who plays Terran, the race that can catch you expanding without ever leaving their base by pressing "0" and "s". Trying to excuse that sort of mistake is like blaming the campus slut for having STDs after you decided to ride bareback.
I suggest you look up his PvT record during 2009. His only significant loss was to
1) the semi-finals of the Batoo OSL against Fantasy, who is the 2nd best TvPer to have ever existed, and an excellent player when it comes to preparation. He later avenged himself in the Avalon MSL by going 2-0 against Fantasy.
2) Iris, where Bisu threw away his advantage in game 5 during the quarter-finals of the Avalon MSL.Last edit: 2011-02-17 06:13:57 |
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| _romantic United States. February 17 2011 06:29. Posts 455 | Profile Blog # |
On February 17 2011 06:12 Assymptotic wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 02:37 l0st_romantic wrote:
On February 16 2011 22:42 Lightwip wrote:
On February 16 2011 19:13 Holgerius wrote:
JD still looking weak vs top players and Bisu still looking questionable in his PvT (but holy fuck his PvZ!!!). =/
Erm, Bisu questionable in PvT? He loses 2 games, 1 to Flash, 1 to someone who took a game off Stork(Bisu had a pretty bad BO disadvantage), and won the rest of his games with solid play and that makes his PvT questionable? By the same logic, I could say that Flash needs work in TvZ lategame judging only from his game vs Zero. Honestly, the only thing questionable about Bisu's play is his games vs Stork.
By what logic? Bisu has historically never had a strong PvT. He has never demonstrated consistent dominance in the matchup. Bisu has never won a PvT individual league finals. Hence, his default position going into this month is one of questionable skill. The two losses in Winners' League do not negate that trend. Bisu needs to demonstrate a month of dominance in PvT before that claim can be changed. Flash, on the other hand, is 3-1 in Bo5 Finals versus Jaedong, and has a 69.8% winrate in TvZ versus Bisu's 61% winrate in PvT. Hence his TvZ position going into the month is one of unquestioned dominance. To prove that point: if you had to bet on a terran to win against any zerg, which terran would you pick? The vast majority of Starcraft watchers would pick Flash (with a section picking Light, but only a small section). But if you had to pick a protoss to win against any terran, would the vast majority pick Bisu? Hell, more people would pick Stork or Snow in that situation. Flash's loss against Zero doesn't negate that dominance. Does that logic make sense to you? Most PvT losses are BO losses anyhow--the matchup is the single one least susceptible to multitask/mechanics and most susceptible to game sense and management. Look at the recent Fantasy vs Stork series. Did Fanta win through superior multitask? Hell naw, he was fighting single-front battles with less than 36 units for most of the game time. By that logic it's well acknowledged on TL that Bisu has the best multitask of any P but only mediocre game sense. Hence his BO loss in PvT can strengthen that claim. And it's not like when he gets advantageous BOs he wins either. Look at his game versus Flash. Bisu was in a position where he could expand once to 5 bases, play it safe, and seal the deal on Icarus. Instead, Bisu decides to triple expand to seven bases, knowing full well that he is playing someone with OoV/Savior-caliber game sense and timings, and who plays Terran, the race that can catch you expanding without ever leaving their base by pressing "0" and "s". Trying to excuse that sort of mistake is like blaming the campus slut for having STDs after you decided to ride bareback.
I suggest you look up his PvT record during 2009. His only significant loss was to 1) the semi-finals of the Batoo OSL against Fantasy, who is the 2nd best TvPer to have ever existed, and an excellent player when it comes to preparation. He later avenged himself in the Avalon MSL by going 2-0 against Fantasy. 2) Iris, where Bisu threw away his advantage in game 5 during the quarter-finals of the Avalon MSL.
1) How do you define significant?
2) Look at his 2010 record
3) "Never" may be too strong of a word here. How about "for the past 16 months". Remember Bisu losing 5 straight PvTs to people like Firebathero and shortly thereafter crashing out of the OSL to go.go in a Bo3? Dropping random games to scrubs is acceptable. Dropping a Bo3 to a game-fixer with one of the worst TvPs in history, while letting his opponent get away with a 1 rax double expand--that's just sad.
4) Have you ever seen a Bisu PvT where he demonstrates excellent game sense? |
| | Jaedong beats other players. Bisu beats other players, in PL. Flash beats Starcraft. | |
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| Assymptotic United States. February 17 2011 06:51. Posts 550 | Profile # |
On February 17 2011 06:29 l0st_romantic wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 06:12 Assymptotic wrote:
On February 17 2011 02:37 l0st_romantic wrote:
On February 16 2011 22:42 Lightwip wrote:
On February 16 2011 19:13 Holgerius wrote:
JD still looking weak vs top players and Bisu still looking questionable in his PvT (but holy fuck his PvZ!!!). =/
Erm, Bisu questionable in PvT? He loses 2 games, 1 to Flash, 1 to someone who took a game off Stork(Bisu had a pretty bad BO disadvantage), and won the rest of his games with solid play and that makes his PvT questionable? By the same logic, I could say that Flash needs work in TvZ lategame judging only from his game vs Zero. Honestly, the only thing questionable about Bisu's play is his games vs Stork.
By what logic? Bisu has historically never had a strong PvT. He has never demonstrated consistent dominance in the matchup. Bisu has never won a PvT individual league finals. Hence, his default position going into this month is one of questionable skill. The two losses in Winners' League do not negate that trend. Bisu needs to demonstrate a month of dominance in PvT before that claim can be changed. Flash, on the other hand, is 3-1 in Bo5 Finals versus Jaedong, and has a 69.8% winrate in TvZ versus Bisu's 61% winrate in PvT. Hence his TvZ position going into the month is one of unquestioned dominance. To prove that point: if you had to bet on a terran to win against any zerg, which terran would you pick? The vast majority of Starcraft watchers would pick Flash (with a section picking Light, but only a small section). But if you had to pick a protoss to win against any terran, would the vast majority pick Bisu? Hell, more people would pick Stork or Snow in that situation. Flash's loss against Zero doesn't negate that dominance. Does that logic make sense to you? Most PvT losses are BO losses anyhow--the matchup is the single one least susceptible to multitask/mechanics and most susceptible to game sense and management. Look at the recent Fantasy vs Stork series. Did Fanta win through superior multitask? Hell naw, he was fighting single-front battles with less than 36 units for most of the game time. By that logic it's well acknowledged on TL that Bisu has the best multitask of any P but only mediocre game sense. Hence his BO loss in PvT can strengthen that claim. And it's not like when he gets advantageous BOs he wins either. Look at his game versus Flash. Bisu was in a position where he could expand once to 5 bases, play it safe, and seal the deal on Icarus. Instead, Bisu decides to triple expand to seven bases, knowing full well that he is playing someone with OoV/Savior-caliber game sense and timings, and who plays Terran, the race that can catch you expanding without ever leaving their base by pressing "0" and "s". Trying to excuse that sort of mistake is like blaming the campus slut for having STDs after you decided to ride bareback.
I suggest you look up his PvT record during 2009. His only significant loss was to 1) the semi-finals of the Batoo OSL against Fantasy, who is the 2nd best TvPer to have ever existed, and an excellent player when it comes to preparation. He later avenged himself in the Avalon MSL by going 2-0 against Fantasy. 2) Iris, where Bisu threw away his advantage in game 5 during the quarter-finals of the Avalon MSL.
1) How do you define significant? 2) Look at his 2010 record 3) "Never" may be too strong of a word here. How about "for the past 16 months". Remember Bisu losing 5 straight PvTs to people like Firebathero and shortly thereafter crashing out of the OSL to go.go in a Bo3? Dropping random games to scrubs is acceptable. Dropping a Bo3 to a game-fixer with one of the worst TvPs in history, while letting his opponent get away with a 1 rax double expand--that's just sad. 4) Have you ever seen a Bisu PvT where he demonstrates excellent game sense?
#1: Significant as in costing him a chance at a Starleague. Also significant as in they were Bo5s, which many consider 'the real test of skill'.
#2: +60% winrate is extraordinary in the world of Progaming. Hell, even holding +50% over a modest sample, say 50 games, is enough to get you on the A-team in most cases.
#3: my hypothesis that Bisu is so bad at PvT BoX formats is because he practices a lot against Fantasy, who is known for doing 'weird' stuff. In order to deflect weird stuff, people usually play safe/standard (i.e. Gate->Obs->Expand); which is why Bisu gets predictable and ends up losing to players who 'study' him.
#4: Yes, on Destination, in any match-up. Bisu + Destination = auto-win. In particular, I remember Bisu vs. Flash and Bisu vs. Leta. Lol, I just looked it up, only Skyhigh has a better record on that map. I almost forgot Skyhigh was once a promising rookie.
Edit: If you haven't seen it, I HIGHLY recommend the Bisu vs. Leta one. Mind games at it's finest, but very different from the Stork vs. Flash mind games yesterday. Last edit: 2011-02-17 07:05:57 |
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| Mortality United States. February 17 2011 07:57. Posts 4790 | Profile Blog # |
What are you people talking about?
Bisu has historically always had a strong PvT. The problem with Bisu is that historically speaking his PvT has never been on the same level as his PvZ and PvP. And so it's his PvT that "holds him back." (That and his encounters with Stork, which usually go in Stork's favor.)
As for Bisu not demonstrating excellent game sense, check out his bo3 wins over Flash in GOM and in WCG. I can't remember which one of those, but there was one game in particular on Destination where he did a beautiful job spreading Flash too thin. (Which, by the way, has always been a Protoss player's best bet at winning vs Flash. You don't beat Flash's mech in a head-to-head center battle without a huge advantage. His tank use is too exceptional for that. Personally, I think there are other players who use vultures better, but Flash's overall push mechanics in particular how he uses his tanks is a step above everyone else.)
As for how good Bisu's PvT is right now, I'd place Stork, Best and Snow ahead of him. Even though Bisu has a better record in his last 10 games than any of them, I think they are all stronger PvT players and have been over the past 6+ months.
I fully agree with anyone who says that Bisu relies too heavily on his mechanics to overwhelm opponents, but that doesn't mean he has bad game sense. It just means exactly what it says: that Bisu is overly dependent on successfully forcing his opponent to engage him in a contest of mechanics. In PvT that doesn't work as well as it does in PvZ or PvP because the metagame for the match-up relies on the center battle (and has been that way for more than a decade), not so much on harassment, side battles, and pressure. |
| | Even though this Proleague bullshit has been completely bogus, I really, really, really do not see how Khan can lose this. I swear I will kill myself if they do. - nesix before KHAN lost to eNature |
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| Lightwip United States. February 17 2011 08:47. Posts 5497 | Profile Blog # |
Stork is definitely ahead of Bisu, but Best and Snow not so much. Best is slumping fairly hard and Snow's good games are more rare than Bisu's(Bisu's peak games are obviously more impressive).
Bisu obviously has better mechanics, even if he has the occasional slip-up in game sense. Nevertheless, his PvT certainly isn't questionable, he just lost to Flash and a guy that almost eliminated Stork from the OSL. |
| | If you are not Bisu, chances are I hate you. | |
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