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| EnderSword Canada. February 16 2011 14:07. Posts 546 | Profile # |
I notice the Phoenix harrassment tends to choose to pick up MULEs from Terrans, instead of SCVs.
While this more immediately harms the economy, after several minutes, it would usually have been better to kill SCVs
Just testing in game,
135 minerals take about 3 minute, 270 takes 6 minutes give or take a few seconds, so 45min/minute.
The Mule of course does do 270 in 90 seconds, so 180/minute.
I've often heard people say 'A mule is like 6 SCVs!' because it carries 30 minerals vs 5. but it's interesting to see that this is not true. 1 Mule = 4 SCVs
So, back to my original point.
Say you Swoop in with 4 Phoenix, You stumble upon 4 mules and 4 SCVs at a new expo.
Assume the Mules are on average at 50%
If you did nothing, in 90 seconds, they'd have: 810 minerals
In 3 minutes, they'd have: 1080
in 6 minutes: 1620
in 10 minutes: 2340
in 15 minutes: 3240
So that's if you just flew by
Now, If you killed the 4 Mules:
In 90 seconds: 270
3 minutes: 540
6 minutes: 1080
10 minutes: 1800
15 minutes: 2700
If you killed the 4 SCVs
in 90 seconds: 540
in 3 minutes: 540
6 minutes: 540
10 minutes: 540
15 minutes: 540
Now count in the fact that the SCVs cost you 50 minerals each...
Basically my conclusion here is unless you imminently need their econ hurt immediately, you are better off choosing the SCVs first. If the game goes one 10 minutes past your harrassment, one SCV is worth 500 minerals more than the single MULE
Thoughts?
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| teh_longinator Canada. February 16 2011 14:11. Posts 722 | Profile # |
I usually hit the SCVs. I don't have any substantial evidence to back this up, however, I feel that the permanent resource is a better target than the one that will just disappear in a minute.
However, like I said, I have no actual backing on this point.... Just my gut feeling...
As well, the lower income from the missing SCV is even more of a hit when they decide to stop mining to build things... |
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| Enervate United States. February 16 2011 14:16. Posts 1766 | Profile # |
| It's better to hit the mules if they have full saturation. Otherwise, it's debatable I guess. I'd rather hit the mules earlygame because minerals are more valuable early on. |
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| fighter2_40 United States. February 16 2011 14:16. Posts 360 | Profile Blog # |
| Without addressing your math, consider a saturated mineral line where the marginal benefit of one additional scv is less than when you only have 4 scvs. A mule is worth a lot more since it can oversaturate. |
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| Kitetsu February 16 2011 14:18. Posts 73 | Profile # |
It's alot of theory/mathcrafting, but you may have a solid point. Whenever I'm harassing, I generally go with SCVs earlier on and MULEs later on. Replacing an SCV early on is a lot more irritating than having to re-plop a MULE. I'm not really sure one way or the other though...
By a similar train of logic, perhaps MULEs should be targetted first because SCVs are being constantly produced until mid/late game, and SCVs later on because they are more annoying to produce (since they will start cutting into supply if unit production takes the place of the dead SCVs... if that makes sense).
From a psychological perspective, if you specifically target MULEs at a higher priority than SCVs, the Terran might respond by saving energy for more scans, which could give him a scouting advantage as opposed to a potential mineral advantage.
An interesting question, I'd like to see other responses.
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| goiflin Canada. February 16 2011 14:22. Posts 1019 | Profile Blog # |
On February 16 2011 14:18 Kitetsu wrote:
It's alot of theory/mathcrafting, but you may have a solid point. Whenever I'm harassing, I generally go with SCVs earlier on and MULEs later on. Replacing an SCV early on is a lot more irritating than having to re-plop a MULE. I'm not really sure one way or the other though...
By a similar train of logic, perhaps MULEs should be targetted first because SCVs are being constantly produced until mid/late game, and SCVs later on because they are more annoying to produce (since they will start cutting into supply if unit production takes the place of the dead SCVs... if that makes sense).
From a psychological perspective, if you specifically target MULEs at a higher priority than SCVs, the Terran might respond by saving energy for more scans, which could give him a scouting advantage as opposed to a potential mineral advantage.
An interesting question, I'd like to see other responses.
I think I'd do the opposite of what you do, for the reasons that you stated. It really does get hard (for most people) to keep worker production in mind in the mid/late game, and if he finds himself without minerals between mule calldown cycles, that could hurt him badly. I also think that the mule makes more of a difference in the early game. |
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| Highways Australia. February 16 2011 14:22. Posts 5733 | Profile # |
On February 16 2011 14:18 Kitetsu wrote:
From a psychological perspective, if you specifically target MULEs at a higher priority than SCVs, the Terran might respond by saving energy for more scans, which could give him a scouting advantage as opposed to a potential mineral advantage.
If you target the scv's rather than mules, Terran will likely try to compensate for this by using even more mules to catch up. Which means they will have less scans. |
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| ShamTao United States. February 16 2011 14:26. Posts 417 | Profile # |
If it's early game (1 base), then i'll usually go for MULEs, as the boosted income could pay for a terran player's (future) command center or tech, but when it goes to 2 base, i just nail the SCVs, as there's usually a quicker mule energy buildup that can be used instantly, but SCVs require constant attention from the player.
Edit: grammarLast edit: 2011-02-16 14:27:27 |
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| Dox Australia. February 16 2011 14:27. Posts 1169 | Profile Blog # |
| Considering it's very difficult to estimate how far the MULE is through it's life cycle unless you actually saw it drop, it's a pretty dangerous decision to make. I'd honestly go for the SCV's simply because once the MULE expires, you're causing a lasting effect on their income, whereas their economy is still optimal (assuming saturation) if you kill the MULE. |
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| THE_oldy Australia. February 16 2011 14:31. Posts 77 | Profile # |
*ninjaed*
Also worth noting is that unless you see the mule drop you dont know how long it has left in its life. It has a
lower value as a target the longer its on the field, because there is no point killing it if it about to die anyway.
SCV are guaranteed damage howeverLast edit: 2011-02-16 14:37:29 |
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| zergrushkekeke Australia. February 16 2011 14:35. Posts 241 | Profile # |
| You have to make the same choices harassing with mutas, I usually go for SCVs building, SCVs on gas, then mining SCVs, mules last. The harass is about being as annoying as possible, so sniping a mule is only good if its the first one out and you make the T think "wow, that sucks, I could have just delayed my OC for x seconds" Last edit: 2011-02-16 14:36:21 |
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| MaV_gGSC Canada. February 16 2011 14:38. Posts 1306 | Profile Blog # |
| I think it also depends on the time remaining on the mule. A mule that has just been dropped and hasn't returned a mineral yet is worth more than one that's on its last trip. It also affects build order timings like 3 rax. |
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 SpoR United States. February 16 2011 14:42. Posts 1541 | Profile Blog # |
It's situational. If you have a timing attack planned shortly after the harassment I would think the MULEs would be better targets. Also, if you just saw a mule go down and hasnt even mined yet, that might be a better target, even more so if he has 30 mins in his hand and hasn't returned any at all. If you're playing a more long game harassment to expand I would think the SCVs would be better targets, again better if they have 5 mins in hand.
And ofc there are a number of other factors to consider when grabbing units. If he has no money at all and 1 scv and 1 mule. grab the SCV me thinksLast edit: 2011-02-16 14:43:25 |
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| obsid United States. February 16 2011 14:47. Posts 383 | Profile # |
I think killing money now is better then killing money latter, why? because you can use the money that they get from mules, to make SCVs or CCs to get more money latter. So if you kill 4 mules just as they land thats like killing 1080 minerals, or enough to produce a second cc and 13 more scvs! More money now means they can USE that extra money to get more money latter.
Clearly killing mules 1 second before it dies is worthless though, so it depends on how far along the mule is. But I would say about 60-70% of the time, its better to kill the mule.
Also latter on in the game, I would say its more important to kill mules because mules cost no food. Making him make more scvs (to have the same econ) means less of an army. Also latter on scvs are usualy maxed out any way so killing some of them might do 0 damage to the econ.Last edit: 2011-02-16 14:51:22 |
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| Kornholi0 Canada. February 16 2011 14:51. Posts 629 | Profile # |
| If you think about it, you shouldn't target any units at all, you need to target units that have resources in their hands =D That way you can capitalize on the loss of resources. |
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| Aequos Canada. February 16 2011 14:59. Posts 604 | Profile # |
I target the SCVs in gas personally, trying to force them to go for a more mineral heavy build. There's always the chance they'll forget to resaturate it, and mules can't help their gas income.
MMM is mineral heavy, colossi + phoenix beats it pretty well, so it's kinda like a phoenix opening in PvZ (force units you can kill with your tech switch)
In a purely minerals situation, I'd probably pick the SCVs, as with poor timing (or forgetting to check the OCs energy) I could be wasting gravitrons. |
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| Allred United States. February 16 2011 14:59. Posts 272 | Profile # |
| i was watching i replay of a pro gamer, wish i could remember who but it was a while ago and i watch to many replays but he was using phoenix to harass and he was targeting the scv's over the mules- if my memory holds me right the terran was on 1 base doing a mainly bio build. ( i suppose different situations may call for a different answer). |
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| EnderSword Canada. February 16 2011 15:00. Posts 546 | Profile # |
Even if they had resources in their hands, kill 4 guys and it's like...20 minerals?
Sure, you might as well if all else is equal, but I don't think the 5 or 30 minerals they're holding is enough to make you decide on SCV vs Mule.
Has anyone done any testing on this, or kind of numerical thinking on it? I agree with a few of the situational comments, and certain situation is a factor...but I'm sure I'm not the first to think of this or test it out. |
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| Emperor_Earth United States. February 16 2011 15:06. Posts 775 | Profile Blog # |
This has already been debated to death and the general rule of thumb is 50% left on their timer.
You are neglecting/undervaluing time-value of money. That 135-270 minerals could mean a faster expo by 15-30 seconds which snowballs from there. |
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| zergrushkekeke Australia. February 16 2011 15:10. Posts 241 | Profile # |
On February 16 2011 15:00 EnderSword wrote:
Even if they had resources in their hands, kill 4 guys and it's like...20 minerals?
That's 20 minerals they will never get back! Same thing as stealing minerals with your scouting worker at the start of the map.
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