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| Kapoue Canada. April 07 2011 00:13. Posts 15 | Profile # |
Excalibur or SDream I have a question.
I was wondering how deep is the bronze league. We know it's pretty deep with half the players in there but I'm starting to wonder if it's a bottomless pit 
I'm plat/diamond in 2v2 and I hate 1v1, but in order to get acheivement points, I wanted to do some 1v1s. So I tanked, like a LOT of games, then did worker rushes while leaving 2 games out of 3 for around 200-300 games. Now with season two I wanted to come back up around where I belong around which should be around plat but I'm starting to dispair. I'm 37-2 (DT and DC) and I have only seen 3 silver players (two of which had 0 wins, didn't check if they were tanking or not) and these were around the 5th, 15th and 20th win.
And I haven't seen an increase in skill either (1 base colossus, mass zealot up a walled ramp (then tries again 2 minutes later with more zealots), 1 base muta/roach, no scout, no expands, fast mass thors, etc.).
I know how the league system works, been reading this thread and the one before as you guys were uncovering things. But I wasn't expecting this. Poor (real) Bronze players trying to get out of there. |
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| Subversion South Africa. April 07 2011 00:15. Posts 3619 | Profile Blog # | |
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| forelmashi April 07 2011 03:53. Posts 355 | Profile Blog # |
| why do you think grandmaster promotion will be mmr and not points when past 200 lists have been points? |
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| ch33psh33p April 07 2011 03:56. Posts 2584 | Profile Blog # |
On April 07 2011 03:53 forelmashi wrote:
why do you think grandmaster promotion will be mmr and not points when past 200 lists have been points?
Its in the Blizzard FAQ for GM league. |
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 Excalibur_Z United States. April 07 2011 05:14. Posts 10287 | Profile # |
On April 07 2011 00:13 Kapoue wrote:Excalibur or SDream I have a question. I was wondering how deep is the bronze league. We know it's pretty deep with half the players in there but I'm starting to wonder if it's a bottomless pit I'm plat/diamond in 2v2 and I hate 1v1, but in order to get acheivement points, I wanted to do some 1v1s. So I tanked, like a LOT of games, then did worker rushes while leaving 2 games out of 3 for around 200-300 games. Now with season two I wanted to come back up around where I belong around which should be around plat but I'm starting to dispair. I'm 37-2 (DT and DC) and I have only seen 3 silver players (two of which had 0 wins, didn't check if they were tanking or not) and these were around the 5th, 15th and 20th win. And I haven't seen an increase in skill either (1 base colossus, mass zealot up a walled ramp (then tries again 2 minutes later with more zealots), 1 base muta/roach, no scout, no expands, fast mass thors, etc.). I know how the league system works, been reading this thread and the one before as you guys were uncovering things. But I wasn't expecting this. Poor (real) Bronze players trying to get out of there.
It's important to specify whether you're talking about this season or last season. Last season, it seemed like MMR could drop down pretty far, way way below the point floor. This season it seems like the MMR ranges were tightened a bit, though Bronze is still tied for the largest league (in terms of skill range) just like Diamond. |
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| Lysenko United States. April 07 2011 05:19. Posts 1995 | Profile Blog # |
On April 07 2011 00:13 Kapoue wrote:
And I haven't seen an increase in skill either (1 base colossus, mass zealot up a walled ramp (then tries again 2 minutes later with more zealots), 1 base muta/roach, no scout, no expands, fast mass thors, etc.).
There are big differences in skill there! They're just invisible to the uninitiated unless you match up some of those players.
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| | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism |  |
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| TehForce April 11 2011 00:31. Posts 1072 | Profile # |
I just got reclassified back to Diamond from Masters.
Funny thing is: I had about 80 points when i dropped to Diamond. But in Diamond i started with 2XX points ( I guess thats because i got a fixed amount of points + all bonus pool).
Like many other i had a pretty bad record in Masters, which leads to throwing your Bonus Points into Nirvana. (Had about 60 points once, then lost many games and got back to 0 points, losing all my used bonus pool)
My guess is, when i get promoted to Masters again, the system will treat me as a new player to Masters, which means i get XX fixed points + all bonus pool. So i will be ranked automatically higher than players who stayed (low) Masters all the time but wasted many of their bonus points before getting to a 50/50 ratio again. |
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| Gulzt Netherlands. April 11 2011 04:08. Posts 275 | Profile # |
@TehForce
When you are moved from one league to another, your score is reset to 73 + the amount of bonus pool you have spent so far.
Current season bonus pool (as I write this) is 149 points so if you received around 222 points that makes sense.
You indeed end up higher than everyone that isn't +73 above their bonus pool. |
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| Whale United States. April 13 2011 16:17. Posts 18 | Profile Blog # |
I have a question:
Now that ladder is reset, is MMR more or less volatile if at all different? If MMR is just as volatile since the reset, wouldn't that mean that as the seasons progress, it'll get harder and harder to raise your moving average and promote leagues? |
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| Excalibur_Z United States. April 15 2011 02:01. Posts 10287 | Profile # |
On April 13 2011 16:17 Whale wrote:
I have a question:
Now that ladder is reset, is MMR more or less volatile if at all different? If MMR is just as volatile since the reset, wouldn't that mean that as the seasons progress, it'll get harder and harder to raise your moving average and promote leagues?
That's something we're not sure about. There may be no difference in each player's uncertainty value after the reset. Uncertainty is pretty flexible though and it never gets small enough to permanently lock you anywhere. |
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| Gulzt Netherlands. April 15 2011 16:40. Posts 275 | Profile # |
On April 15 2011 02:01 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 16:17 Whale wrote:
I have a question:
Now that ladder is reset, is MMR more or less volatile if at all different? If MMR is just as volatile since the reset, wouldn't that mean that as the seasons progress, it'll get harder and harder to raise your moving average and promote leagues?
That's something we're not sure about. There may be no difference in each player's uncertainty value after the reset. Uncertainty is pretty flexible though and it never gets small enough to permanently lock you anywhere.
I really hope that the uncertainty value doesn't reset. After all, there are some lame players dropping to bronze, worker rush their way to 1000 wins to get a portrait. I think it serves them right if it takes them the same amount of games to get back to their true league, demotivating them so they quit the game.
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| Gulzt Netherlands. April 19 2011 22:37. Posts 275 | Profile # |
@Excalibur
I have another question. I've read through your thread thoroughly and it's somewhat answered, but to make sure:
I'm now ranked #1 in my platinum league. With a 57% winratio this season, and 51% overall. I have a score of 476 points or "215 excl. bonus pool"
Now for my question: I'm facing players from 3 different leagues: Gold, Platinum & Diamond. Mostly diamond, and part of the matches are top Gold or top Platinum.
Now for my question: why am I facing people from 3 different leagues? Would it suggest my uncertainty factor is so huge that it expands over 3 leagues? Or is there another explanation?
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| Windmonk Canada. April 19 2011 22:51. Posts 87 | Profile # |
I was #20 of my master division during the season 1 (i played a total of 500games), then i took a 4months break, i ended up having 2100 points with 1.2k bonus pool.
New season comes, and i decide to start playing again and this mmr system matches me against players with 3 times my games played who had 4000points in season 1. I am not enjoying my games due to the fact im really rusty and i have been playing against really good players...
Can anyone explain me how this is happening and would losing a bunch of times will lower my current MMR? |
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| HappyCakes Sweden. April 19 2011 23:01. Posts 76 | Profile # |
On April 19 2011 22:51 Windmonk wrote:
Can anyone explain me how this is happening and would losing a bunch of times will lower my current MMR?
Your mmr is same as theirs I guess.
Yes losing, will lower your mmr. |
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| Sphinxks United States. April 19 2011 23:03. Posts 8 | Profile # |
@Excalibur
I really enjoyed this post and read it over a few times to be sure as to see if this question was answered already.
This is in relation to bronze league; What effect do you see smurfing/sandbagging has on bronze league players as far as the MMR system.
Smurfing/Sandbagging is basically tanking to lower leagues in effort to play against easier players, or simply purchasing a new account to start over.
Question; With an increase in the sheer amount of people getting bored at plat and diamond, and tanking leagues to bronze, how does this effect the matchmaker?
Currently the matchmaker judges by MMR and when you tank a league, your MMR tanks but not your skill(theoretically). So if a bronze league player loses to a Sandbagger/Smurf who was in diamond; the system thinks that the player still lost to a bronze league player and has no idea that the person they lost to was a sandbagger/smurf.
If more and more people move down to bronze, how does this effect bronze league players?
If you take a MMR hit because you lose to someone within your MMR range who is a sandbagger, and their true-skill was diamond, what happens to the ladder at that level?
What would happen to the ladder when there are many sandbaggers/smurfs in bronze and newer players are getting forced to play against them, and losing?Last edit: 2011-04-19 23:04:29 |
| | Without is not as important as within. |
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| SDream Brazil. April 19 2011 23:08. Posts 896 | Profile Blog # |
On April 19 2011 22:51 Windmonk wrote:
I was #20 of my master division during the season 1 (i played a total of 500games), then i took a 4months break, i ended up having 2100 points with 1.2k bonus pool.
New season comes, and i decide to start playing again and this mmr system matches me against players with 3 times my games played who had 4000points in season 1. I am not enjoying my games due to the fact im really rusty and i have been playing against really good players...
Can anyone explain me how this is happening and would losing a bunch of times will lower my current MMR?
Of course that losing will lower your MMR. I think you shouldn't lose on purpose though, keep practicing against these players and your MMR will slowly fall naturally, while practicing!
As for why you're rusty, well, I guess that happens after long breaks? Keep practicing :D
lol, ok. Your MMR stays the same if you stop playing. Problem is that you can get rusty as you said you are, but not only that, the meaning of what a X MMR means also isn't stable, it depends on active players population skills. Last year in august, being platinum was about knowing how to do more than 24 works (at least in my server), now this skill isn't enough even for silver league, so the overall skill level went up in a little less than one year, so you might need to lose a bunch of games before feeling confortable again in a spot, with a new (lower) MMR. But there is no reason for losing on purpose, just keep practicing and don't botter for losing. |
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| SDream Brazil. April 19 2011 23:14. Posts 896 | Profile Blog # |
On April 19 2011 23:03 Sphinxks wrote:
@Excalibur
I really enjoyed this post and read it over a few times to be sure as to see if this question was answered already.
This is in relation to bronze league; What effect do you see smurfing/sandbagging has on bronze league players as far as the MMR system.
Smurfing/Sandbagging is basically tanking to lower leagues in effort to play against easier players, or simply purchasing a new account to start over.
Question; With an increase in the sheer amount of people getting bored at plat and diamond, and tanking leagues to bronze, how does this effect the matchmaker?
Currently the matchmaker judges by MMR and when you tank a league, your MMR tanks but not your skill(theoretically). So if a bronze league player loses to a Sandbagger/Smurf who was in diamond; the system thinks that the player still lost to a bronze league player and has no idea that the person they lost to was a sandbagger/smurf.
If more and more people move down to bronze, how does this effect bronze league players?
If you take a MMR hit because you lose to someone within your MMR range who is a sandbagger, and their true-skill was diamond, what happens to the ladder at that level?
What would happen to the ladder when there are many sandbaggers/smurfs in bronze and newer players are getting forced to play against them, and losing?
In order to them to keep in bronze they actually need to lose, so I wonder, what happens, do they lose on purpose? Isn't that a easy win for that player they lost on purpose? So doesn't that evens thing out? Yeah, I bring no answers, just more questions  |
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| ReketSomething United States. April 19 2011 23:20. Posts 4012 | Profile Blog # |
On April 19 2011 22:37 Gulzt wrote:
@Excalibur
I have another question. I've read through your thread thoroughly and it's somewhat answered, but to make sure:
I'm now ranked #1 in my platinum league. With a 57% winratio this season, and 51% overall. I have a score of 476 points or "215 excl. bonus pool"
Now for my question: I'm facing players from 3 different leagues: Gold, Platinum & Diamond. Mostly diamond, and part of the matches are top Gold or top Platinum.
Now for my question: why am I facing people from 3 different leagues? Would it suggest my uncertainty factor is so huge that it expands over 3 leagues? Or is there another explanation?
If you are playing MOSTLY diamond players you are in the diamond range (or near it) You are probably playing gold players that are doing really really well and are on the verge of promotion. You are also probably playing platinum players around your level as well. The issue is that there is no way to check if the gold player has a 70% win ratio (and so they are testing him at the "diamond" level) since blizzard removed losses from profiles.
Another thing to consider like you said is uncertainty and the fact that there might not be other players online. If there are no people around your level, the matchmaker expands and grabs people a little further away from you.
On April 19 2011 23:03 Sphinxks wrote:
@Excalibur
I really enjoyed this post and read it over a few times to be sure as to see if this question was answered already.
This is in relation to bronze league; What effect do you see smurfing/sandbagging has on bronze league players as far as the MMR system.
Smurfing/Sandbagging is basically tanking to lower leagues in effort to play against easier players, or simply purchasing a new account to start over.
Question; With an increase in the sheer amount of people getting bored at plat and diamond, and tanking leagues to bronze, how does this effect the matchmaker?
Currently the matchmaker judges by MMR and when you tank a league, your MMR tanks but not your skill(theoretically). So if a bronze league player loses to a Sandbagger/Smurf who was in diamond; the system thinks that the player still lost to a bronze league player and has no idea that the person they lost to was a sandbagger/smurf.
If more and more people move down to bronze, how does this effect bronze league players?
If you take a MMR hit because you lose to someone within your MMR range who is a sandbagger, and their true-skill was diamond, what happens to the ladder at that level?
What would happen to the ladder when there are many sandbaggers/smurfs in bronze and newer players are getting forced to play against them, and losing?
Sandbaggers that lose on purpose would have HUGE uncertainty but other than that not much is different. Once they lose enough and they get to bronze, they are considered bronze and hence they lose a lot. Losing to the diamond level sandbagger is the same as losing to any other bronze (except the bronze has really high uncertainty). The thing is, the sandbagger is throwing a lot of games to stay in bronze so you could also get free wins. Balance is not distorted.
(basically hes just another good ol bronzie....think of it this way....he still has 50% win rate in bronze since hes throwing games)Last edit: 2011-04-19 23:21:38 |
| | I love Jaedong! :3 |  |
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| Excalibur_Z United States. April 19 2011 23:55. Posts 10287 | Profile # |
On April 19 2011 22:37 Gulzt wrote:
@Excalibur
I have another question. I've read through your thread thoroughly and it's somewhat answered, but to make sure:
I'm now ranked #1 in my platinum league. With a 57% winratio this season, and 51% overall. I have a score of 476 points or "215 excl. bonus pool"
Now for my question: I'm facing players from 3 different leagues: Gold, Platinum & Diamond. Mostly diamond, and part of the matches are top Gold or top Platinum.
Now for my question: why am I facing people from 3 different leagues? Would it suggest my uncertainty factor is so huge that it expands over 3 leagues? Or is there another explanation?
Reket is right. If you're commonly facing Diamond opponents, then any Gold players you face will be right on the Gold-Plat border. It's actually typical for uncertainty to be so large that it spans multiple leagues -- this allows players to find matches relatively quickly and this is why uncertainty isn't a factor in evaluating players for promotion. |
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| Excalibur_Z United States. April 20 2011 00:08. Posts 10287 | Profile # |
On April 19 2011 23:03 Sphinxks wrote:
@Excalibur
I really enjoyed this post and read it over a few times to be sure as to see if this question was answered already.
This is in relation to bronze league; What effect do you see smurfing/sandbagging has on bronze league players as far as the MMR system.
Smurfing/Sandbagging is basically tanking to lower leagues in effort to play against easier players, or simply purchasing a new account to start over.
Question; With an increase in the sheer amount of people getting bored at plat and diamond, and tanking leagues to bronze, how does this effect the matchmaker?
Currently the matchmaker judges by MMR and when you tank a league, your MMR tanks but not your skill(theoretically). So if a bronze league player loses to a Sandbagger/Smurf who was in diamond; the system thinks that the player still lost to a bronze league player and has no idea that the person they lost to was a sandbagger/smurf.
If more and more people move down to bronze, how does this effect bronze league players?
If you take a MMR hit because you lose to someone within your MMR range who is a sandbagger, and their true-skill was diamond, what happens to the ladder at that level?
What would happen to the ladder when there are many sandbaggers/smurfs in bronze and newer players are getting forced to play against them, and losing?
I think the system tends to account for these people, and I think they are the reason why MMR can go below the Bronze point floor. What these players do is drop all the way to the bottom of Bronze, then trade wins. Because they're already at the bottom, their points are anchored at pretty much zero, so to everyone else, they just look like a bad player. They're at the bottom of the MMR scale so some of the people they face who are legitimately in that situation (not as a result of win trading or intentional losing) will get bumped up a tiny bit, and the people that those people face will get bumped up a tiny bit, and so forth. It's probably not going to have that big an impact on the ladder as a whole though. |
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