The 4 gate has dominating the Protoss scene forever and likely will continue to; like many i never liked 4 gating and so i worked to play a counter 4 gate build that didn't strictly put you into one tech route or cut probes so as to negate an advantage and be behind in the event on a not 4 warpgate.
I've been messing around with anti-4 gate builds and after a while i've come to the build i'm going to detail today and i'd say i win about 80-90% of my PvP's. I've been meaning to post this up for almost a month but i've been on temp-ban tt
Overview:
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The build revolves around a similar concept to denying a korean 4 warpgate (throw down 2 gates and chrono zealots so that you have a zealot advantage by the time of the first warp-in). The 4 warpgate push consists of that early zealot, stalker, and probe to proxy, and a second stalker slightly behind that depending on preference. Like the korean 4 gate response, this build relies on getting out a relatively high number of units before the push hits while maintaining a decent economy and also not committing to any tech pattern.
This build quickly gets out 2 zealots and 4 stalkers with minimal probe cuts and denies 4 warpgating while leaving open transitions.
Some players i have hit on the ladder have commented that this looks similar to Adelscotts No-gas PvP but it is not the same; 2 zealot 2 stalker at the time Adel has 4 zealots and 2 stalkers coming while more economical with more gas so as to give freedom to adapt down any tech route
Some of the names i have beaten with it in the last month (often multiple times) are coLAntimage, sjArtosis, coLrsvp, ONEGatored, LGShew, and REQSlained
Ultimately i believe this build addresses the problems that CecilSunkere's, Adelscotts, imakki's, and other counter 4 gate builds have; they are more counterable due to their more rigid nature, whereas this is not; if it is scouted (it will be), idgaf because it makes no difference and at most you can simply get a few more probes earlier.
This build quickly gets out 2 zealots and 4 stalkers with minimal probe cuts and denies 4 warpgating while leaving open transitions.
Some players i have hit on the ladder have commented that this looks similar to Adelscotts No-gas PvP but it is not the same; 2 zealot 2 stalker at the time Adel has 4 zealots and 2 stalkers coming while more economical with more gas so as to give freedom to adapt down any tech route
Some of the names i have beaten with it in the last month (often multiple times) are coLAntimage, sjArtosis, coLrsvp, ONEGatored, LGShew, and REQSlained
Ultimately i believe this build addresses the problems that CecilSunkere's, Adelscotts, imakki's, and other counter 4 gate builds have; they are more counterable due to their more rigid nature, whereas this is not; if it is scouted (it will be), idgaf because it makes no difference and at most you can simply get a few more probes earlier.
Please Read/Disclaimer
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A lot of people are commenting that because this build definitively does not look like a 4 gate opening, it lets the other player do whatever he wants and gain an advantage.
1) The point of my build as i have seen it is to provide a viable way to defeat 4 gate while also
2) Being able to defeat any particular build because it is very efficient, 4 gate or not and
3) Culminates in an attack that will usually win
If your PvP requires that you be able to 4 gate if you feel it necessary, then fine, this build is not for you. I am hoping that this build or more refined builds in the future will make the necessity of 4 gating unnecessary. I will explain below
The notion that because 4 gate is not an option you have less options and give your opponent more freedom may both be true, but
A) You not being able to 4 gate is not a bad thing within the purposes of this build; if you like to 4 gate, go ahead and do it
B) Your opponent having more freedom is worse with other anti-4 gate builds because they sacrifice more economy and ultimately in a push/defend you are behind; with this build you are pumping out units very efficiently and actually gain a unit advantage vs most other builds while having similar economy, thus, this freedom is bad in the sense that yes, my opponent is doing whatever, but i would compare it to going any tech build in PvP; you've gone blink, and he has gone robo...so what?
I feel that this is based upon the concept that "if my opponent has done this, i should 4 gate to kill him" which is an idea that, while true currently, is something that this build works towards solving. I am trying to think of a way to eloquently explain myself, and for now will make this analogous (but it may not be the best analogy). Ideally, i believe that the 4 gate should become a very rare build because it will not win if everyone opens in X way that defeats the 4 gate, and so by 4 gate opening, especially on larger maps where scoutiing fast enough might be a problem, you run the risk that your opponent has gone a build like this, where you will lose (assuming my build is a solution to this metagame), and therefore there is a disincentive for you to open this way, and then a new standard arises where both players open in "x" fashion which not only defeats 4 gate but does not disclude all other pathways. I, then, look at it perhaps like 4 warpgating versus zerg. Zerg's are gaining proficiency in stopping 4 warpgate builds vs PvZ, whereas there was a period of time where it was simply viewed as impossible to stop without simply assuming a specific build type to defend a hypothetically not-incoming build, similar to the case in PvP. Now as i understand, then, yes, 4 gating is definitely still done and still works, but not to the extent that it did; now, players opt more for more macro/long-term oriented play because it has a higher success rate as opposed to their 4 warpgate attack which will likely be deflected and then place them behind.
What i am essentially hoping for by exploring builds like this is to push the PvP metagame back to what it used to be more like for a while in early release, while we knew about 4 warpgating but not about how to warp up ramps and still tried to tech build which was seen as advantageous. I have always assumed that many find the 4 gate vs 4 gate nature of PvP to be bad, and i believe that a build like this or perhaps this will help gear PvP to a more tech, decision, and long-term based matchup.
Feel free to PM me and we can play against each other on battle.net. I would love to explore the build futher
Build Order
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Just a note. The build order requires that you are VERY sharp as every second is critical versus a 4 gate and in PvP in general, but especially when you are trying to build a unit advantage with less gates. I recommend placing your 9 pylon not only as fast as possible but as close to your nexus as possible with the closest probe, and similarly with subsequent buildings, although building buildings as soon as you have the mineral required is most important. Learning to mineral stack early game will also help
9 pylon
(10 chrono)
13 gate (chrono after gate throw) (scout with this probe)
14 gas (should not have to cut probes)
16 pylon (should finish at same time as first gate) (chrono)
18 zealot
21 gate
22 core
23 zealot
25 pylon
(cut probes at 26)
26 warpgate tech (NO CHRONO)
26 stalker (chrono)
26 stalker (chrono)
30 gas
30 stalker
30 stalker
34 pylon
34 probe
35 stalker (somtimes zealot)
35 stalker (somtimes sentry)
9 pylon
(10 chrono)
13 gate (chrono after gate throw) (scout with this probe)
14 gas (should not have to cut probes)
16 pylon (should finish at same time as first gate) (chrono)
18 zealot
21 gate
22 core
23 zealot
25 pylon
(cut probes at 26)
26 warpgate tech (NO CHRONO)
26 stalker (chrono)
26 stalker (chrono)
30 gas
30 stalker
30 stalker
34 pylon
34 probe
35 stalker (somtimes zealot)
35 stalker (somtimes sentry)
Execution
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His probe will stay alive most likely, but chase it with your zealots; it doesn't particularly matter. Potentially it will throw him off and make him double gate and case at the most a delayed 4 wg (Artosis lololol) or he will just tech, which is perfectly alright with this build. Of course he might just 4 wg because it looks like easy pickings.
The late stalkers will often make your opponent greedy and try to move their first stalker down asaply. This is in fact great, because your two stalkers will pop just as it enters your base and you can get a free kill.
As soon as your stalkers are about 3/4 done, move out your zealots to check potential proxy pylon/hidden probes, and use your stalkers to do the same, keeping them somewhat close together. When the 4 gate moveout comes, you can shut it down easy. I recommend shooting the probe if possible with stalkres and attacking the pylon with your zealots, then kiting around the zealot and attacking their stalker. At the very least, keep one zealot on the pylon if it goes down. Should shut down proxy pylons very easily and often kill initial units which is a huge deal. Your third and fourth stalker should join the party very soon as well. A lot of this is simply situation, and you will get a feel
If you fail to kill the proxy pylon/delay the 4 gate at all, you are probably dead. However, on my smurf account, i have been able to beat a straight up 4 gate on Tal-Dariim and Scrap Station without even moving out of my base and simply winning with my unit count. Target firing and micro is very important, of course.
You should have 50 energy after your 4th stalker is out for two more unit boosts if necessary (typically your wg finishes after your 6th stalker/8th unit if you spend 1 boost on it) and you can either add a 5 and 6th, or go zealot sentry if you have to defend the ramp or something. Oftentimes, the ramp advantage is enough simply because you have only a 1-2 less units if they pursue a 4 gate and you will typically have a stalker advantage. If they press into your base or up your ramp, target fire down the stalkers and micro away damaged stalkers from the zealots. You may have to pull probes but oftentimes this is ok because you are ahead economically anyways and you will pull ahead in units.
My follow up has always been a Twilight council at around 40 supply because you will have so many stalkers and it simply flows into it both economically and compositionally, but it is absolutely possible to get a robo and really go any tech route. If you choose to go robo or stargate i would, however, recommend a sentry, because sometimes people will go with a massive unit push off a 4 gate which is hilariously stupid to lose to.
I get a third gate after my tech building and i cut probes at around 20-22, and mass stalkers. When blink is done i simply move out (proxy a pylon, ofc), and the blink play is standard. If they have gone robo tech, you have to aggressively harass and pick off zealots or you probably lose. Versus blink builds, i have never lost (see vs coLrsvp or Gatored for vs dedicated blink builds) and i would imagine my build is one of the most efficient blink build orders based on this experience.
Basically i have always continued this build by doing a blink stalker push (and i leave my zealots behind to wall ramp with cannon if i suspect dt). The advantage, then, with this build, is that even if there is no 4 warpgate, you have a definitive direction and no definite disadvantage in it.
I almost always expand behind my push unless i think i can win, even against robo. I then get charge if it is robo and chrono that shit while getting a fourth gate asaply massing zealots and continuing the stalker harass.
The late stalkers will often make your opponent greedy and try to move their first stalker down asaply. This is in fact great, because your two stalkers will pop just as it enters your base and you can get a free kill.
As soon as your stalkers are about 3/4 done, move out your zealots to check potential proxy pylon/hidden probes, and use your stalkers to do the same, keeping them somewhat close together. When the 4 gate moveout comes, you can shut it down easy. I recommend shooting the probe if possible with stalkres and attacking the pylon with your zealots, then kiting around the zealot and attacking their stalker. At the very least, keep one zealot on the pylon if it goes down. Should shut down proxy pylons very easily and often kill initial units which is a huge deal. Your third and fourth stalker should join the party very soon as well. A lot of this is simply situation, and you will get a feel
If you fail to kill the proxy pylon/delay the 4 gate at all, you are probably dead. However, on my smurf account, i have been able to beat a straight up 4 gate on Tal-Dariim and Scrap Station without even moving out of my base and simply winning with my unit count. Target firing and micro is very important, of course.
You should have 50 energy after your 4th stalker is out for two more unit boosts if necessary (typically your wg finishes after your 6th stalker/8th unit if you spend 1 boost on it) and you can either add a 5 and 6th, or go zealot sentry if you have to defend the ramp or something. Oftentimes, the ramp advantage is enough simply because you have only a 1-2 less units if they pursue a 4 gate and you will typically have a stalker advantage. If they press into your base or up your ramp, target fire down the stalkers and micro away damaged stalkers from the zealots. You may have to pull probes but oftentimes this is ok because you are ahead economically anyways and you will pull ahead in units.
My follow up has always been a Twilight council at around 40 supply because you will have so many stalkers and it simply flows into it both economically and compositionally, but it is absolutely possible to get a robo and really go any tech route. If you choose to go robo or stargate i would, however, recommend a sentry, because sometimes people will go with a massive unit push off a 4 gate which is hilariously stupid to lose to.
I get a third gate after my tech building and i cut probes at around 20-22, and mass stalkers. When blink is done i simply move out (proxy a pylon, ofc), and the blink play is standard. If they have gone robo tech, you have to aggressively harass and pick off zealots or you probably lose. Versus blink builds, i have never lost (see vs coLrsvp or Gatored for vs dedicated blink builds) and i would imagine my build is one of the most efficient blink build orders based on this experience.
Basically i have always continued this build by doing a blink stalker push (and i leave my zealots behind to wall ramp with cannon if i suspect dt). The advantage, then, with this build, is that even if there is no 4 warpgate, you have a definitive direction and no definite disadvantage in it.
I almost always expand behind my push unless i think i can win, even against robo. I then get charge if it is robo and chrono that shit while getting a fourth gate asaply massing zealots and continuing the stalker harass.
Replays
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**i think in one or two of the notable replays i do a bit of variation on the build but the principle is about the same (i think vs ONEGatored i go gate core gate but end up 26 stalker stalker anyways, but as you can see it is less efficient)
-sjArtosis (Xel'Naga Caverns)
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/166183-1v1-protoss-xelnaga-caverns
-sjArtosis (Metalopolis)
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/163840-1v1-protoss-metalopolis
-coLAntimage (Xel'Naga Caverns):
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/166172-1v1-protoss-xelnaga-caverns
-coLrsvp (Backwater Gulch):
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/166175-1v1-protoss-backwater-gulch
-LGShew (Shakuras Plateau)
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/166177-1v1-protoss-shakuras-plateau
-ONEGatored (Xel'Naga Caverns)
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/166180-1v1-protoss-xelnaga-caverns
-REQSlaineD (Shattered Temple)
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/166181-1v1-protoss-gutterhulk
Replaypack
http://www.mediafire.com/?o80eusech2ocw1s
edit: a lot of people are commenting that none of the replays show a perfect 4 gate
1) I will get you some reps that do, but in the meanwhile
2) Good, assuming my build does stop 4 warpgate, than you can also see its aptitude versus all sorts of builds
Strengths and Weaknesses
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Strengths
-Hard counters korean 4 warpgate
-Transitions well into blink, dt, stargate, or robo
-Economically advantageous over common PvP builds
-Works on any map (at least until very top masters, if not top masters/grandmasters)
-More efficient/powerful than normal blink stalker builds (in my experience)
and
-Revolutionizing PvP cause i'm your broseidon
Weaknesses
-1 base robo play is the build i have lost to with this. If they mass zealot/sentry and chrono out colossus/immortal and just push, it can be problematic if i cannot delay enough, which is a problem on maps where i cannot blink in with obs when they move out. But I'm still working out the kinks and sometimes it does work.
-???? A lot of people i have played claim this build would have been weak if they had only knew it was coming.
-Micro and multitask intensive. Miss anything and die. Its like zerg yo.
-DTs?
-Hard counters korean 4 warpgate
-Transitions well into blink, dt, stargate, or robo
-Economically advantageous over common PvP builds
-Works on any map (at least until very top masters, if not top masters/grandmasters)
-More efficient/powerful than normal blink stalker builds (in my experience)
and
-Revolutionizing PvP cause i'm your broseidon
Weaknesses
-1 base robo play is the build i have lost to with this. If they mass zealot/sentry and chrono out colossus/immortal and just push, it can be problematic if i cannot delay enough, which is a problem on maps where i cannot blink in with obs when they move out. But I'm still working out the kinks and sometimes it does work.
-???? A lot of people i have played claim this build would have been weak if they had only knew it was coming.
-Micro and multitask intensive. Miss anything and die. Its like zerg yo.
-DTs?
Variations and Experimentation/Discussion
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-I believe that a very precise 4 warpgate and an intial warp in closer to their home base may be a problem for this build, but as of now since my build is only mine, it is not yet a problem since no one knows to do it
-Early defending sometimes screws with the build and you might have to get your third gate before twilight council. When this happens i typically get a forge simultaneously and build a cannon at my front as well as getting +1 weapon,
-Forge alongside twilight + +1 weapon seems to also be viable. Not sure of the benefit (less stalkers) but also has worked
-This vs itself is not yet tested
-Assuming this build becomes more popular, DT rushing may be a problem, hence forge is something to consider anyways
-As i mentioned, i believe this build addresses the issue of the CecilSunkere/3 stalker rush and whatever openings. As imakki (#14 EU gm posted in his own recent guide in response to someone who raised a similar point:
"Yes, it easily scoutable, it doesnt matter. Why would he be ahead in tech? I always start to build robo/tc before my warpgate is even ready incase there is no 4gate. If he chronoboosts nexus, yes he will be ahead in probes, but i will also chronoboost nexus then. I have 100-200 gas more than he does, if he doesnt build second gas while my scout is inside his base."
A: Somewhat faulty logic in my opinion; his opponent is NOT using that chronoboost on probes but ahead in probes and free to use chronoboost on tech units/tech. Thus, the conclusion i draw is that a player of similar level who scouts this will simply play more economically and win on that virtue
With this build, you have more probes because you do not cut as early, but you can still adjust. This, then, is more efficient in that regard and so is advantageous
Further, with 3 stalker builds like immaki's, if the opponent throws down two pylons before dying and uses his stalker/zealot to poke, you cannot out-DPS the pylons before the first warp in comes; then you lose.
-Early defending sometimes screws with the build and you might have to get your third gate before twilight council. When this happens i typically get a forge simultaneously and build a cannon at my front as well as getting +1 weapon,
-Forge alongside twilight + +1 weapon seems to also be viable. Not sure of the benefit (less stalkers) but also has worked
-This vs itself is not yet tested
-Assuming this build becomes more popular, DT rushing may be a problem, hence forge is something to consider anyways
-As i mentioned, i believe this build addresses the issue of the CecilSunkere/3 stalker rush and whatever openings. As imakki (#14 EU gm posted in his own recent guide in response to someone who raised a similar point:
"Yes, it easily scoutable, it doesnt matter. Why would he be ahead in tech? I always start to build robo/tc before my warpgate is even ready incase there is no 4gate. If he chronoboosts nexus, yes he will be ahead in probes, but i will also chronoboost nexus then. I have 100-200 gas more than he does, if he doesnt build second gas while my scout is inside his base."
A: Somewhat faulty logic in my opinion; his opponent is NOT using that chronoboost on probes but ahead in probes and free to use chronoboost on tech units/tech. Thus, the conclusion i draw is that a player of similar level who scouts this will simply play more economically and win on that virtue
With this build, you have more probes because you do not cut as early, but you can still adjust. This, then, is more efficient in that regard and so is advantageous
Further, with 3 stalker builds like immaki's, if the opponent throws down two pylons before dying and uses his stalker/zealot to poke, you cannot out-DPS the pylons before the first warp in comes; then you lose.
Q&A
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Q: how does it benefit in comparison to a defensive 4 warp gate?
A: Simple. One base cannot afford 4 gates, end of story, and often you get other buildings, rendering further uselessness. This build not only has more probes, but less buildings, and therefore no commitment to any pathway or overextension of buildings/inefficiency in that regard.
Also, if you defensively 4 warpgate and your opponent fake 4 gates and starts to tech, you pretty much lose as long as he plays safely.
Q:Have you ever tried incorporating a gas steal into this? If a 1 base robo build is a threat, then delaying it seems reasonable.
While in ZvP gas steal's are effective because 4 gate is relatively easy to stop when prepared for, it is kind of redundant in this where basically you are already stopping 4 warpgate so basically it is a 75 mineral burn which might hurt the build.
Q: You have 2z/2stlkaer ~4:50
Adel BO has 4z/2stalker as fast as 5:10 (late scouting).
So potentially bit less powerful early than adel, and can be held off with basically anything. But more gas than Adel.
I find the prospect of more gas and more probes while achievieng the same thing to be preferable in a gas intensive matchup, and i think 2 stalkers are better than 2 zealots for that 20 seconds for finding pylons, killing a probe, killing their stalker/zealot without taking damage, and allowing for more flexibility, because that adds to 4 stalkers about 30 seconds earlier, which i imagine is huge.
Further, if you like blink stalkers (which is the rage), than my build allows for more stalkers and blink earlier, or just faster tech in general.
A: Simple. One base cannot afford 4 gates, end of story, and often you get other buildings, rendering further uselessness. This build not only has more probes, but less buildings, and therefore no commitment to any pathway or overextension of buildings/inefficiency in that regard.
Also, if you defensively 4 warpgate and your opponent fake 4 gates and starts to tech, you pretty much lose as long as he plays safely.
Q:Have you ever tried incorporating a gas steal into this? If a 1 base robo build is a threat, then delaying it seems reasonable.
While in ZvP gas steal's are effective because 4 gate is relatively easy to stop when prepared for, it is kind of redundant in this where basically you are already stopping 4 warpgate so basically it is a 75 mineral burn which might hurt the build.
Q: You have 2z/2stlkaer ~4:50
Adel BO has 4z/2stalker as fast as 5:10 (late scouting).
So potentially bit less powerful early than adel, and can be held off with basically anything. But more gas than Adel.
I find the prospect of more gas and more probes while achievieng the same thing to be preferable in a gas intensive matchup, and i think 2 stalkers are better than 2 zealots for that 20 seconds for finding pylons, killing a probe, killing their stalker/zealot without taking damage, and allowing for more flexibility, because that adds to 4 stalkers about 30 seconds earlier, which i imagine is huge.
Further, if you like blink stalkers (which is the rage), than my build allows for more stalkers and blink earlier, or just faster tech in general.
Ladder Experience from Others
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none yet ;;
A Final Note
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I'm looking to start coaching and if anyone is interested in a lesson please contact me on here or at imaginationxiii@gmail.com, or online @ Imagination.422. I'm probably going to charge $15-20 per hour and you'll need Skype. I'd like to save up so i can get a nicer computer capable of streaming but i'll need you guys' support! Or you can just donate dollah cause you know you want to see me stream sooo much. : p
Please share your experiences/questions/thoughts/criticism!