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On May 04 2011 14:09 chaoser wrote: Ok, so I posted that line just to see how people would respond. You can see that I didn't even post in the actual voting thread and already I think I've got some good reactions. Irish, why such a big response, going so far as to posting a link to another website, even saying that you would dismiss me and "not waste time on trying to convince someone I'm not scum". I didn't even actually vote for you, I posted some bolded words that could have easily been knocked down since there was no analysis behind it, and no logic behind it; it had nothing behind it. Why so serious? Why such a big reaction? Same thing to chaos13.
At the same time, why so much silence on the issue from people who were clearly present? Kitaman? You pop in to say that people shouldn't edit but you don't mention a single thing about Irish, a single thing about me, and a single thing about anything. What up?
I think this long of a post is more suspicious than anything irish punk dude said.
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On May 05 2011 00:56 Kurumi wrote: Drop Chaoser discussion as scum. He will be probably shot this night because he is good at Mafia and is staying really pro-town. It is good to see some lurkers waking up!
I don't like this post. I never like it when a townie tries to end discussion. The town should always encourage discussion. However, Chaoser does not seem to support Kurumi at all. It seems like Kurumi could be trying to defend his mafia buddy Chaoser but Chaoser is being very serious about not defending Kurumi at all. Maybe Kurumi just made a bad mistake that Chaoser is trying to distance himself from it in order to not be involved if Kurumi turns out to be mafia. Chaoser even did a little investigation on Kurumi's other TL posts which is very interesting. Chaoser is a good player which nobody should forget. I believe he has the potential to be a great townie or a great mafia player.
Eternalmisfit did a good analysis of Kurumi as well. I think the worst part about him is his posting method. What's up with that? At least if we lynch him and he flips town, we won't have to attempt to read those type of posts anymore. I agree with your overall assessment of Kurumi and I see him at least as of right now being most likely to be mafia.
This is my third mafia game. I played haunted mafia a while ago and I had no idea what was going on the entire game. Then I just played Brown Bear's mafia game in which I was a mafia goon. DropBear, Coagulation, and GMarshal were all on my team.
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Holy shit. I was kidding about lynching Kurumi for his posting style. Look at his posts. Where are the good ones Irish Punk is claiming exist?
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On May 05 2011 04:22 Irish_Punk13 wrote: Okay, for now my vote is going on AirbladeOrange for his last post. I don't like the fact that he's okay with the idea of lynching town. Kurumi is making some great posts so far, and I think he's most likely town based off of his actions so far. The fact that you think it's okay to lynch him tells me that you're probably scum, so I'm putting my vote on you.
Please point out his good posts. Preferably the ones that make sense and are not about Lost.
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On May 05 2011 11:09 jaminz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 11:00 KillerSOS wrote:On May 05 2011 10:50 ilovejonn wrote:On May 05 2011 10:45 KillerSOS wrote: Guess I fall into "doesn't stand out"
Success? >_> ?? Your posts don't hold a lot of value really. I consider myself an invisible poster but I don't spam the thread with useless wifom like what you did here. What do you mean success? You like to not stand out because you are scum? Killer FOS How could standing out possibly be a good thing? Its only going to get you lynched or killed by the mafia.Nice play on my name btw, but I would prefer Killer SOSAlso my whorish posting can be somewhat explained by my lack of interest in working on my paper, therefore I am obsessively F5'ing the thread. I'll be up all night finishing anyways... Wow......this is such a dumb thing to say. You're essentially saying that its good not to say anything that could possibly make people (either mafia or town) look at you. You realize that the only way to find mafia is to do analysis, and that in doing analysis you're going to bring attention to yourself. I don't understand how you can make this comment and expect it to be a good explanation for your posting habits. This is insane
I think this is a really good point. Jaminz, you are playing differently than last game but I think it's a good different.
I believe Chaoser to be town, he is doing a great job of encouraging discussion and taking stands and demanding responses. This is very important for town as I learned last game. Be bold and make the mafia scared. It's okay for town to die as long as they mafia leave clues behind. Clues are much easier to decipher later in the game when you figure out who they are voting for and pressuring and who they bandwagon against.
I'm still voting for Kurumi. His type of posting just does not seem pro town. We need to stay on task, clear up and back up what we say, and stay focused on killing people who are likely mafia.
If he flips red, I am inclined to take out Irish guy next because they seem like a pair. I think it was Chaoser that even pointed out the times they posted were within minutes of each other.
And as always, if anyone wants me to clarify anything I said or wants my opinion on something please ask.
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On May 05 2011 11:57 chaoser wrote: AO, why did you vote without saying anything?
I made the last post right after I voted.
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For what it's worth, I was mafia last game and it was really easy to tunnel conversion and it even made him make some posting mistakes. He is new and in the other game I played with him he didn't contribute too much.
Sorry for tunneling you last game conversion! It was the act of a desperate team.
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Here are two posts written within seven minutes of each other attacking Chaoser's early post. I'm growing confident that Chaoser is town and I'm trying to keep an eye out for people who call him out. Kurumi and sandroba do. This looks similar to the Kurumi and Irish Punk posting stuff very close together, making them seem like their actions as a pair need to be taken into consideration. I think Chaoser's post was good information and it is a no tell in my opinion. Both mafia and town do this.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 04 2011 22:41 Kurumi wrote: I thought I will have any heavy read by the time I am back and game starts but.. the only thing I saw was CHAOS. Saying that,while someone says this,posting some rules being in the other thread,just doing a contribution without any value On May 04 2011 22:48 sandroba wrote:Ok, so I've caught up right now and something in particular has caught my attention. Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 18:33 chaoser wrote:On May 04 2011 18:12 Forumite wrote:On May 04 2011 15:09 AirbladeOrange wrote:On May 04 2011 14:09 chaoser wrote: Ok, so I posted that line just to see how people would respond. You can see that I didn't even post in the actual voting thread and already I think I've got some good reactions. Irish, why such a big response, going so far as to posting a link to another website, even saying that you would dismiss me and "not waste time on trying to convince someone I'm not scum". I didn't even actually vote for you, I posted some bolded words that could have easily been knocked down since there was no analysis behind it, and no logic behind it; it had nothing behind it. Why so serious? Why such a big reaction? Same thing to chaos13.
At the same time, why so much silence on the issue from people who were clearly present? Kitaman? You pop in to say that people shouldn't edit but you don't mention a single thing about Irish, a single thing about me, and a single thing about anything. What up? I think this long of a post is more suspicious than anything irish punk dude said. He does have a few points, people need to make constructive posts, even more so with a 30-player game. Also even this early it´s a good move to call out people on their scum-tells. There's no real such thing as a scum-tell per say. TL doesn't really do the MS "You said good job to medic when he saved someone, you're scum!" kind of deal but there are limitations to what mafia can and can't do. Or at least feel comfortable with doing. If you look at XXXVII, you'll see that mafia found it very hard to make cases against each other and that ended up catching a lot of them. If you look at XXXXVIII, you can see that mafia were decently wishy-washy. By wishy-washy I don't mean they changed their opinions on things, but that they changed them based upon nothing, merely to please the rest of town. In Simple Mafia, Town because Mafia were inactive and allowed town to dominate the discussion. Even so, you'll notice that most of the time it was town arguing against town, using weak arguments and trying to figure out alliances before anyone even flipped. That's bad play since you don't know how mafia will act towards each other. They could bus each other a bit, they could act friendly, or they might not interact at all. The point is that you should focus on a few people and then make judgements about connections AFTER the flip. On day one, conversation generation is the most important thing, even if it IS the 30th game we're discussing about lynching inactives or not. Pressure is also a good conversation generator and I know for a fact that GM's question asking helps too. Mafia wants town to have no direction and I'm sure in this game, where it's filled with mostly newbies, the mafia aren't going to go out of their way to help newbie townies. As such, redtooth get's +townie points in my book. Townies should be sure to ask coaches for help and read over guides conveniently localed here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=215574 That's all fine and all but the thing I find extremelly suspicious about this post is this: Chaoser points out how redtooth post is pro-town and then he proceeds to do exactly what redtooth did. Why are making such a huge effort to appear pro-town chaoser? This post would have exactly the same content without the bolded part. The only thing this part adds is making YOU look more town.
On May 05 2011 00:56 Kurumi wrote: Drop Chaoser discussion as scum. He will be probably shot this night because he is good at Mafia and is staying really pro-town. It is good to see some lurkers waking up!
I think it's a bad idea to ever drop "who is scummy" discussion. Town needs to be focused on hunting mafia at all times.
On May 05 2011 01:07 Kurumi wrote: Chaoser,You wouldn't make any effort to defend Yourself if they were onto something,note that Irish backed off into the shadows,while You try to do something. You have two different approaches to play. Sandroba tries to play the Town Hero,he "has" the sense! Chaos13 does not know what is going on anymore.
I don't understand this at all.
He has a bunch of other posts that don't really especially around page 20 and before. Eternalmisfit tried to analyze some of those posts on page 20.
On May 05 2011 04:22 Irish_Punk13 wrote: Okay, for now my vote is going on AirbladeOrange for his last post. I don't like the fact that he's okay with the idea of lynching town. Kurumi is making some great posts so far, and I think he's most likely town based off of his actions so far. The fact that you think it's okay to lynch him tells me that you're probably scum, so I'm putting my vote on you.
I have asked repeatedly for you to back this up and you have not. Where are Kurumi's "great posts?"
I feel that Kurumi's posts are erratic and unfocused.
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I'm sticking with Kurumi. If he flips red then I will be on Irish next. Kurumi's posts are not getting any better or helping his situation at all. It is a mafia tactic to confuse and be crazy in the beginning. That's not a good strategy.
I think Chaoser is town and I also believe Redtooth could be mafia. I was not convinced by his last big post. How is Irish an obvious townie? I just don't see that point at all.
Lastly, Cthsazsa is probably mafia.
On May 05 2011 06:46 Cthsazsa wrote: I'll give my thoughts so far on this. I've noticed a lot of finger-pointing going around. A good example would be of KillerSOS qucikly criticizing Rising_Pheonix's post as spam, even though all he did was give his viewpoint on the current situation?
Sandroba is very quick to accuse people as being scum.
As a few people have already said, Kurumi's posts are strange. It seemed like that at first he was trying to attack chaoser, and then started claiming him to be a good pro-townie?
AirBlade's post instantly looked like anti-town. He was suggesting that we lynch Kurumi, and then he said that even if Kurumi is a townie, it's still okay.
As I said earlier, right now all we're doing is pointing fingers and forcing people into corners to make them look suspicious. I still haven't seen a good, legitimate reason for voting off someone yet.
This is just stalling, wasting time. We need to put heat on people and make stands. Townies being passive generally help the mafia pick us apart.
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Redtooth, in your last post you said Irish AND Kurumi are town but provided no good reason for it. I want to know why you feel this way. + Show Spoiler + On May 05 2011 21:42 redtooth wrote:@Chaoser - I don't see how the argument is weak or convoluted. It essentially boils down to two things: - You are pushing a lynch on Irish, an obvtown
- You are FoSing all the easy targets, many of whom are obvtown
Out of all the actions taken in the thread so far, out of all the verbal missteps and the random disappearances and the smurf conspiracy theories, those seem to be the most scummy actions so far.If you believe Irish to be mafia and have a 70% confidence (pretty high mind you) then why is it that you've partially quit your attempt to press him other then to mention in passing that he's still your top suspect. You accuse me of not focusing but here you have 4 targets set before the town with none earning your full attention. Since you seem to be half-heatedly advocating for the Kurumi lynch, if he flips green would you agree that Irish is green as well? I think Kurumi's lynch is actually even more ridiculous but that's besides the point. It's not the fact that there is a simple "chance" of these things being likely, it's the fact that there seems to be a high chance of these things happening. I've re-read their posts numerous times and it isn't a far-fetch'd thing to say that most are simply noobtown. They all act suspicious as hell, almost to the point of playing with reckless abandon and not caring about the follwup. Do these sound like scum actions to you? As for "active lynching", yes I took a very liberal approach to the definition of it. But the bottom line stays the same - every action you took so far has been extraordinarily safe. You called out the people who were easy to call out, regardless of whether they actually seem more like noobtown or not. I can literally run through the thread and call out every ranting member for missteps in word usage and have 10+ well-justified FoS by the end but that doesn't contribute to the thread. What it does do is destroy focus, as evidenced by the game thus far. Scumhunting is incredibly sexy and screams I'M TOWN. Townhunting is not nearly as sexy but just as important and something that you've generally neglected to do. Not every FoS may be a lynch threat but obviously two (Irish and Kurumi) are. And since those two look pretty noobtown, I find it extremely odd that you continue advocating for their lynch. The reason why I didn't put a vote on you yet was because, I'll admit, there isn't enough evidence to totally convince me that you are scum. Talking percentages, I'd say I'm probably around 40% sure. But that 40% is more confidence I have in you being scum than literally anybody else in the thread except maybe KillerSOS. On the other hand, it doesn't make sense at this point to think both you and Killer are scum so a vote will have to wait until I can clear one or the other.
@aidnai - Then why is it that people are literally tripping over themselves to keep credit and align themselves with Chaoser? As for Irish, he obviously didn't go inactive as part of a combined scum strategy to get the heat off of him since there are no PMs. If you think Irish actually is noobscum and exposed himself to all those real tells, don't you think he would have done the noobscum followup and aggressively defend himself? (See: KillerSOS) Let's do a math exercise. Consider, as objectively as possible, the following and write down the percent chance you think of each event happening. - Whether Irish went inactive as strategicscum or he went inactive as boredtownie.
- Whether Irish did a genuine chainsaw defense or that he simply jumped at what he believed to be a scumtell regardless of the merit in his analysis.
- Whether Irish is actually noobtown with all his tells being explained by that fact or that he is actually noobscum (and somehow strategicscum at the same time) giving away a ridiculously abundant amount of information without being more guarded.
Analyze your numbers and if it still seems like there is over "70%" of him being scum then your math has been flawed. On the other hand, do the same for Chaoser. - Whether he has been actively promoting quality lynches or he has been promoting the easy-to-accuse-while-not-looking-bad lynches/FoS.
- Whether the fact that he has a pro-town reputation is due to his being town or his being a good player who traditionally looks pro-town.
- Whether he is a hard-working townie bent on finding scum or he is hard-working scum bent on distracting town.
This may not come out to 70% as well but it is just as likely (IMO way more likely) as Irish being actual scum. Also, RVS/RQS = Random Voting Stage and Random Question Stage. Next time refer to this. This made me late for work zzz.
Now you are saying that Kumumi is leaning a little less town than before. Why? What changed?
I'm even getting uneasy with you defending me as being "to a lesser extent" town. Kurumi I think was the one who tried to get people on my case but he did not have any good analysis. If anyone else has issues with my play let me know up front what the problem is. I don't really think I'm being too defensive, but I'm keeping an eye on people who tried to continue that bandwagon.
I'm thinking it is likely that you, Irish, and Kurumi are all mafia. Maybe you are getting desperate because of the poor play of your two teammates and are trying to help them without seeming overly obvious while at the same time trying to shift attention to KillerSoS.
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On May 06 2011 06:37 Kurumi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 06:30 AirbladeOrange wrote:Redtooth, in your last post you said Irish AND Kurumi are town but provided no good reason for it. I want to know why you feel this way. + Show Spoiler + On May 05 2011 21:42 redtooth wrote:@Chaoser - I don't see how the argument is weak or convoluted. It essentially boils down to two things: - You are pushing a lynch on Irish, an obvtown
- You are FoSing all the easy targets, many of whom are obvtown
Out of all the actions taken in the thread so far, out of all the verbal missteps and the random disappearances and the smurf conspiracy theories, those seem to be the most scummy actions so far.If you believe Irish to be mafia and have a 70% confidence (pretty high mind you) then why is it that you've partially quit your attempt to press him other then to mention in passing that he's still your top suspect. You accuse me of not focusing but here you have 4 targets set before the town with none earning your full attention. Since you seem to be half-heatedly advocating for the Kurumi lynch, if he flips green would you agree that Irish is green as well? I think Kurumi's lynch is actually even more ridiculous but that's besides the point. It's not the fact that there is a simple "chance" of these things being likely, it's the fact that there seems to be a high chance of these things happening. I've re-read their posts numerous times and it isn't a far-fetch'd thing to say that most are simply noobtown. They all act suspicious as hell, almost to the point of playing with reckless abandon and not caring about the follwup. Do these sound like scum actions to you? As for "active lynching", yes I took a very liberal approach to the definition of it. But the bottom line stays the same - every action you took so far has been extraordinarily safe. You called out the people who were easy to call out, regardless of whether they actually seem more like noobtown or not. I can literally run through the thread and call out every ranting member for missteps in word usage and have 10+ well-justified FoS by the end but that doesn't contribute to the thread. What it does do is destroy focus, as evidenced by the game thus far. Scumhunting is incredibly sexy and screams I'M TOWN. Townhunting is not nearly as sexy but just as important and something that you've generally neglected to do. Not every FoS may be a lynch threat but obviously two (Irish and Kurumi) are. And since those two look pretty noobtown, I find it extremely odd that you continue advocating for their lynch. The reason why I didn't put a vote on you yet was because, I'll admit, there isn't enough evidence to totally convince me that you are scum. Talking percentages, I'd say I'm probably around 40% sure. But that 40% is more confidence I have in you being scum than literally anybody else in the thread except maybe KillerSOS. On the other hand, it doesn't make sense at this point to think both you and Killer are scum so a vote will have to wait until I can clear one or the other.
@aidnai - Then why is it that people are literally tripping over themselves to keep credit and align themselves with Chaoser? As for Irish, he obviously didn't go inactive as part of a combined scum strategy to get the heat off of him since there are no PMs. If you think Irish actually is noobscum and exposed himself to all those real tells, don't you think he would have done the noobscum followup and aggressively defend himself? (See: KillerSOS) Let's do a math exercise. Consider, as objectively as possible, the following and write down the percent chance you think of each event happening. - Whether Irish went inactive as strategicscum or he went inactive as boredtownie.
- Whether Irish did a genuine chainsaw defense or that he simply jumped at what he believed to be a scumtell regardless of the merit in his analysis.
- Whether Irish is actually noobtown with all his tells being explained by that fact or that he is actually noobscum (and somehow strategicscum at the same time) giving away a ridiculously abundant amount of information without being more guarded.
Analyze your numbers and if it still seems like there is over "70%" of him being scum then your math has been flawed. On the other hand, do the same for Chaoser. - Whether he has been actively promoting quality lynches or he has been promoting the easy-to-accuse-while-not-looking-bad lynches/FoS.
- Whether the fact that he has a pro-town reputation is due to his being town or his being a good player who traditionally looks pro-town.
- Whether he is a hard-working townie bent on finding scum or he is hard-working scum bent on distracting town.
This may not come out to 70% as well but it is just as likely (IMO way more likely) as Irish being actual scum. Also, RVS/RQS = Random Voting Stage and Random Question Stage. Next time refer to this. This made me late for work zzz. Now you are saying that Kumumi is leaning a little less town than before. Why? What changed? I'm even getting uneasy with you defending me as being "to a lesser extent" town. Kurumi I think was the one who tried to get people on my case but he did not have any good analysis. If anyone else has issues with my play let me know up front what the problem is. I don't really think I'm being too defensive, but I'm keeping an eye on people who tried to continue that bandwagon. I'm thinking it is likely that you, Irish, and Kurumi are all mafia. Maybe you are getting desperate because of the poor play of your two teammates and are trying to help them without seeming overly obvious while at the same time trying to shift attention to KillerSoS. Playing Mafia Hero would not benefit him in any way - it is obvious and You already started accusing him being scum. If I flip town,Your entire mindset and things You knew so far are DESTROYED. This is why Your attack is weak. Also think about,what would be the sense of trying to save Your mafia allies who failed horribly? Well,to make Yourself exposed obviously NOT. So far I am happy with my plan all working out,a bit too fast,but it is better than no response,duh. I wonder why people defend Chaoser so much but attack redtooth so hard.
You're right that helping out scum buddies is not a good move. That is why I'm thinking that if it is the case, it is out of desperation that the town will lynch both you and Irish and you will both be red. He is defending you both relatively subtly and without sound reasoning. He even goes as far as changing his position on you without stating why.
Regarding defenind Chaoser: He is a talented player and as of now I believe him to be pro town. I will probably continue to trust him until he starts pressuring, tunneling, and advocating lynches I disagree with or people who turn out to be green.
You say you wonder why people defend Chaoser and attack Redtooth. If you are insinuating something then state it plainly rather than just throw out assertions and hope they stick. This also makes you even more suspicious in my book that you are seemingly defending a guy who is making some questionable posts. If you want to back him up then do so publicly, just as the case with your statement on people defending Chaoser.
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Please don't use any vigilante actions now. It's way too soon without having much to go on. These percentages don't really mean anything and anyone advocating the use of our blue roles at this point is not having the town's best interests in mind.
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Here are the 13 people that voted for Kurumi:
sandroba chaos13 ilovejonn sinani206 Forumite VarpuliS Eternalmisfit AirbladeOrange GGQ orgolove Mig Amber[LighT] Forumite Beneather
Theres a good chance multiple mafia members are on this list. I think we should check in to the people who bandwagoned.
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I remember ilovejonn being mostly a lurker in the last mafia game providing no real analysis. Why is he suspicious this game when he was acting the same way last game and was town?
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I think there's a decent chance of that between Chaoser and Redtooth, one of them is mafia. I think someone else already said that but I agree. I'm still leaning toward Chaoser being town and probably Redtooth mafia. I think the mafia are playing to this killing active veteran jackal and aidnai as well. KillerSoS I don't quite understand. He was already under a good amount of heat. Unless they are trying to make a guy like jaminz a lynch target.
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EBWDP:
I messed up that last post. I meant that the mafia are playing to that idea of the town being confused as to whether Chaoser or Redtooth are mafia, prompting town to pick one to lynch. Jackal and aidnai were less polarizing figures and veteran players.
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Can people please stop making personal attacks calling each other stupid and saying other people can't read?
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Conversion, I'm beginning to think more and more that Cthsazsa is mafia too, but I think you're going about calling him out in a way too aggressive way.
I'm still suspicious of Redtooth but I think there is not enough to go on now and there are better candidates, especially Cthsazsa. I'm gonna look up his posts soon and post something on it.
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Stuff on Cthsazsa:
On May 04 2011 21:03 Cthsazsa wrote: Just finished reading all the posts. I must say, I haven't really seen a legitimate reason to be suspicious of anyone. Right now it's just a bunch of people pointing fingers at each other.
I acted pretty much like this the first time I was ever mafia. I tried to post so that people would recognize my name but didn't want to make any stands to avoid scrutiny. Especially early on before mafia buddies help each other out as much I feel people's first few posts are just on their own doing their own thing trying not to get caught.
On May 05 2011 06:34 Cthsazsa wrote: Are we allowed to PM the coaches?
If he is PMing coaches, either they are giving him bad advice or he is not listening to them/actually getting advice.
On May 05 2011 06:46 Cthsazsa wrote: I'll give my thoughts so far on this. I've noticed a lot of finger-pointing going around. A good example would be of KillerSOS qucikly criticizing Rising_Pheonix's post as spam, even though all he did was give his viewpoint on the current situation?
Sandroba is very quick to accuse people as being scum.
As a few people have already said, Kurumi's posts are strange. It seemed like that at first he was trying to attack chaoser, and then started claiming him to be a good pro-townie?
AirBlade's post instantly looked like anti-town. He was suggesting that we lynch Kurumi, and then he said that even if Kurumi is a townie, it's still okay.
As I said earlier, right now all we're doing is pointing fingers and forcing people into corners to make them look suspicious. I still haven't seen a good, legitimate reason for voting off someone yet.
Hindsight helps here. If he knew KillerSoS was town, here he would be tempted to add to the pressure. Same case with Kurumi and same case with myself. It's like he always brings up people (2 confirmed dead townies) who are town and under at least a little bit of heat. But he still does not make any stands whatsoever. He just acknowledges the fact that he agrees with suspicions and that's it.
On May 05 2011 12:31 Cthsazsa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 04:22 Irish_Punk13 wrote: Okay, for now my vote is going on AirbladeOrange for his last post. I don't like the fact that he's okay with the idea of lynching town. Kurumi is making some great posts so far, and I think he's most likely town based off of his actions so far. The fact that you think it's okay to lynch him tells me that you're probably scum, so I'm putting my vote on you. I've changed my vote from AO to Irish after rereading this post several times. It really makes no sense. Kurumi rambles on with posts that makes just about no sense, and out of the blue Irish takes up his defence by saying the bolded words. This has pretty much been pointed out by several people. Maybe Kumuri and Irish both are scum.
This is another pretty vague post. He changes his vote from me to Irish because of one post that is suspicious. All does does is say it makes no sense. Furthermore I found no good reason to vote for me to begin with but I guess I'm quite biased because I am, after all, me. Perhaps the analysis of Irish being mafia is incorrect and Cthsazsa is trying to throw another townie to their death. Also, at this point it was increasingly looking like Kurumi was going to be lynched rather than Irish so even if Irish was mafia it wasn't an overly risky play. Lastly, he throws out his usual maybe this maybe that thing without making a stance.
+ Show Spoiler + On May 06 2011 13:57 Cthsazsa wrote:My take on the situation before I go to bed. + Show Spoiler +On May 06 2011 13:08 DropBear wrote:On VarpuliS22 posts since the game started for real, starting with 228. Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 07:12 VarpuliS wrote:I just read through the thread, and I'm not sure exactly what to think. My biggest FoS right now is on Rising_Phoenix. He hasn't been lurking, exactly, but rather making vacuous posts. On May 05 2011 06:00 Rising_Phoenix wrote: I'm sitting here hoping that something interesting happen but all I see is:
*SPAM* *SPAM* *SPAM* *SPAM* *SPAM* *SPAM* *SPAM*
Also lots of finger pointing without any actual evidence. I almost say vote for the spammers so at least we can have some constructive comments.
Also, the reason why my one post was unsubstantial is because I am still waiting for something to stick out. Right now all the spam looks suspicious, or at least is really annoying. Active =/= scummy. Why are you telling people to stop talking? This is not pro-town. It's pretty ironic that you're telling people to stop spamming by making an empty spam post. When you start posting content, you can tell people to stop spamming. Your post is pretty empty yourself. I am interested in the fact that very early on you say that active does not mean scummy. Why not? Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 08:36 VarpuliS wrote:A very common scum technique is to act suspicious of other scum, so that when/if they flip red you can say "I knew it" and seem pro-town.
On May 05 2011 07:13 Cthsazsa wrote: Why would we vote off inactives? We should leave them be. If they are mafia, well they aren't that much of a threat to us since they're not participating. On the other hand, if they're a townie then that'll just put a crutch in us. We'll lose a townie, PLUS we'd have wasted our votes.
People insisting that we vote off inactives just seems suspicious to me. What the hell is this post? Inactive players are not pro-town because they - Aren't giving us posts to analyze, thus deducing that they're town and focusing on real scum. This derails the town and helps the mafia.
- Aren't contributing and helping the town decide who is mafia. Most lurkers/inactives are just sheep who join major bandwagons, in my limited experience.
- Could be mafia keeping quiet so that nobody can figure that out from their posting. they can still kill/roleblock at night, so they are still a threat.
This is either a really stupid post or a really scummy post. I honestly can't tell which. Lynching an inactive day 1 is common, because it is rare to have enough information/analysis to peg any actual scum. A lynch based off of solid analysis is always to be preferred, of course. Ultimately, town wants to get rid of all inactive players before lylo, when each vote and opinion counts, while scum wants to keep as many inactives alive as possible, because they're useless to the town and just add uncertainty. Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 08:40 VarpuliS wrote:On May 05 2011 08:36 Cthsazsa wrote: I don't understand. I was talking about inactive people, not lurkers. It is very hard to tell which is which. Thus, inactives must be treated as lurkers, or else lurking scum could just hide as inactives and be safe. that would be bad. The best course of action is to pressure the lurkers into posting. If they are truly inactive, they get modkilled and we move on. I'm not talking about them, i'm talking about the "posting so I don't get modkilled today" kind of poster. I consider them inactive as well. You are repeatedly talking about inactives but you go to absolute no lengths to actually bring them out. Noone is named, no requests are given. This is all pointless. VarpuliS was very strongly on the Kurumi lynch. Here is his case: Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 11:15 VarpuliS wrote:Kurumi Kurumi's posts can be divided into two categories. Useless spam, and misleading drivel, and actual content Useless spam.+ Show Spoiler +On May 04 2011 22:41 Kurumi wrote: I thought I will have any heavy read by the time I am back and game starts but.. the only thing I saw was CHAOS. Saying that,while someone says this,posting some rules being in the other thread,just doing a contribution without any value I have no clue what that is even supposed to mean. Not helpful, just spammy. On May 05 2011 01:07 Kurumi wrote: Chaoser,You wouldn't make any effort to defend Yourself if they were onto something,note that Irish backed off into the shadows,while You try to do something. You have two different approaches to play. Sandroba tries to play the Town Hero,he "has" the sense! Chaos13 does not know what is going on anymore. This post makes a lot of statements without really saying anything. Spam. On May 05 2011 01:49 Kurumi wrote: Thanks Chaoser,I think I did not see that tip in Newbie thread. I wasn't too cautious,right,but even insane thought can turn out to be true. I have no idea how to reply. What does this contribute? "crazy shit can be right," so I'm not going to defend my opinion. On May 05 2011 03:13 Kurumi wrote: 13 2 6 3 2 2 13 Thanks for pointing out that I am fearful of using names,thus making my posts inconsistent,weird and often misunderstood. Which posts should I "repair" - that meaning making it totally straight and understandable? Why the hell are there numbers at the top of this posts? Rest is nonsensical. On May 05 2011 03:18 Kurumi wrote: No,I am just saying that using names all over again is unnatural for me. Fine, but not a contribution, so technically spam. On May 05 2011 03:36 Kurumi wrote: Such unlucky formatting,I had such cool line of numbers from top to the bottom. I tried to make something happen and yeah I did,but it turned out talking about me is interesting. spam. On May 05 2011 04:00 Kurumi wrote: Jackal58 Just a post. spammyspamspam On May 05 2011 04:24 Kurumi wrote: Punk,You're back! So my pre-emptive lurker vote is obsolete now! OK then, good for you! On May 05 2011 04:36 Kurumi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 04:34 ilovejonn wrote: I don't think you should kid about lynches. Our votes are very valuable and it's basically our only way of killing scum. Shh,he won't allow You on the EXCUSE boat. thank you for that On May 05 2011 04:50 Kurumi wrote: Remember people mentioning the numbers. Giving away Your biggest weakness might be Your biggest strenght. what? On May 05 2011 04:54 Kurumi wrote: Haha,it was cool first season,then got boring. About LOST, or some shit like that On May 05 2011 05:03 Kurumi wrote: Sorry I didn't call for mass roleclaim,that would not be mysterious and pretty cool Mafia game,eh? Nice joke, funny funny, no content. On May 05 2011 05:44 Kurumi wrote: Hello there Kenpachi,enjoy reading the thread!
On May 05 2011 05:54 Kurumi wrote: Hey Jackal58,we missed You! Nice posts. I would be missing your good ones, but I never knew them. Misleading drivel.+ Show Spoiler +On May 05 2011 00:56 Kurumi wrote: Drop Chaoser discussion as scum. He will be probably shot this night because he is good at Mafia and is staying really pro-town. It is good to see some lurkers waking up! I agree that Chaoser is pro-town, but shutting down analysis and suspicion on any player without suggesting a more suspicious player is not pro-town play. On May 05 2011 01:09 Kurumi wrote: Oh,also I am voting on Irish Punk. Funny how he and chaos have 13 in the end of their nicknames. I would call this spam, but it involves a vote. His reason is "he plays differently from Chaoser" Bad. On May 05 2011 01:16 Kurumi wrote: I just note that his behaviour is different from Irish_Punk's and it looks pro-town,because of trying to make party going As I said, bad reasoning. On May 05 2011 01:22 Kurumi wrote: I just find his activeness into lurking suspicious. Why would You stop contributing when You have nothing to fear of? There is a real world outside of TL. On May 05 2011 01:32 Kurumi wrote: Chaoser,did You really grab my crappy contribution posts from SC2 to Mafia forums? I did not vote because of coincidence,I just saw it. When I stared my third post I knew that it will go wrong and I will be accused of scum. Bringing more chaos into Day 1 than there was wasn't my intention. A scummy post is still scummy even if you acknowledge that it is. On May 05 2011 03:35 Kurumi wrote: 13 Eternal - his refers to Chaoser. It was pointed out though Irish_Punk13 might just started doing 2 something besides writing post here on Mafia forums,so his step back into lurker den isn't 6 actually that obvious,just a normal human activity. 3 My point is,Mafia itself would rather not start the discussion(unless it was questions helping them 2 out,like "How do You deal with Mafia claims" "What usually gives out Your identity" etc) 2 The thing that Chaoser and redtooth posted was just a mini-guide how not to fail horribly at Mafia. 13 Still it could be a smoke bomb. This is so confusing that any content that might be in this post is lost on me. what the hell do the numbers mean?On May 05 2011 04:13 Kurumi wrote: AirbladeOrange: "A dead Townie is a good Townie" I like Your style,as Cave Johnson said! Cute, but misinterpreting the post. On May 05 2011 04:33 Kurumi wrote: Numbers? What numbers? 13 2 6 3 2 2 13? They're just to cast more suspicion on me,like hey! Random numbers MUST be something! No. I just felt like typing them. My type of posting might be connected to English being my second language (the biggest thing is repeating names which I am not comfortable with,where in Polish I need to find 2347234 possibilities to avoid typing the same thing in one,even two sentences.) It was wrong to assume my thought process will apply to everyone and I understand that mistake. Just to put some emphasis: 13 2 6 3 2 2 13 is nothing,but I might get some link if You want to make them mystical,You know. Why would you post meaningless numbers? I'm fine with the explanation of why you post the way you post, but the numbers thing totally derails this post. Again, how are useless numbers beneficial to town? Actual good content.+ Show Spoiler +On May 04 2011 23:07 Kurumi wrote: Your attacks on Chaoser and redtooth are not supported by any evidence than nitpicking,yes they are posting without much value,but we are just starting off. I don't have any problem with this post because I agree with it. Good post. On May 05 2011 04:15 Kurumi wrote: Seriously. Never say that dead Town is a good deal,it makes You look weird or even suspicious I'll count this so that this section has more than 1 post in it, because this is a logical statement. On May 05 2011 05:29 Kurumi wrote: Sandroba,You were the person to grab the number trick to make me suspicious. Easy lynch for scum,isn't it? I don't accuse You of being red but.. You're trying to do it the easiest way. Don't keep doing it,please. When You don't think and just go straight You might miss something. On May 05 2011 05:30 Kurumi wrote: Stop doing it,please* Grammar,the horror! I'm calling this content despite my better judgement. He's calling out sandroba for joining a bandwagon based off of faulty evidence (I think). Fair enough. On May 05 2011 06:09 Kurumi wrote: So basically I need to do something,because my fishy posting won't be a good defence for myself while I am gone. Kurumi used Excuse! Kurumi has some Excuses left! Excuse:This will be my first time doing a small analysis,so please don't beat me and lay down Your stones,pickaxes,guns or whatever You just picked up. Thanks.
My thoughts on: Chaos13 Points out my weird style of posting,numbers and thinks it is huge scum tell. He is thinking on his own rails,probably not trying to doom us all. Sandroba Hero of our city! Scumhunts every post and every post he has new scum tell,amazing how he does it. Together with Chaos13 is picking on my posting. Irish_Punk13 Got on my rails or at least tries to understand what I try to tell. Points out AirbladeOrange suspicious behavior. Supposedly works for town. AirbladeOrange Wants me dead. Because dead townie is best townie,right? Since I have no contribution value I am worthless. Looks like that is not what he meant actually. Dead townie has no vote privilege! The less votes are available for town,the better for the scum! Suspicious,might be scum. Chaoser Very careful,does not like me hugging him. This is both-side reaction. Though because it is Day1 and his biggest contribution was the hint post I believe I can't decide who he is. KillerSOS Plays for fun,enjoys the game. Agreeds with the Irish_Punk13. ilovejonn Is as careful as Chaoser,has good idea who should be looked at. Kenpachi Has got this. I mean,the backup plan of course. Is onto something obviously.
Overall,most of people are trying to hop on me,or AirbladeOrange for his bluff about dead townies. I know this is not SO helpful analysis that You'd hoped for,but look at top of the post. No. Don't pick up those. Please? It is about my excuse. Many of You already used them,some multiple amount of times,but I have no time to pick on it. I believe I will have time to post tomorrow after school (day ends 5:00 KST,right?) It's defensive, but it's content. I don't agree with some of it though. The Kenpachi part is BS, the ABO part is half OMGUS and half logic.
Notice how the majority of his posts are spam, misinformation, or anti-town. Can you find the townie under all of this? because I can't. This guy isn't being pro-town, and in my opinion he's our best lynch for day 1. ##Vote: Kurumi+ Show Spoiler +Whew, that took longer than I expected... This is the only major analysis from him so far. He makes a large song and dance about how much of what Kurumi says doesn't make sense. The part where you say he's posted good content you also say you don't agree with it all. Could you elaborate? Also I find little difference between many of the posts you say are misleading drivel and those that are "actual content". Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 11:34 VarpuliS wrote:On May 05 2011 11:33 KillerSOS wrote:On May 05 2011 11:31 Cthsazsa wrote: What do I need to say to clear my name? I've said it twice already, it was a misunderstanding between the definition of inactive and lurker. When I read inactive, I thought it meant people who weren't playing at all. As in someone who's signed up for this game and hasn't logged on TL since.
At the rate this thread is moving, inactive means "haven't posted in the past hour". ^_^ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ You've helped lynch Kurumi on grounds of spam and unhelpful/misleading posts. This is also spam, unhelpful and misleading, as are about 5 of your posts around here. There's a FoS on Cthsazsa which you very quickly forget about. Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 12:49 VarpuliS wrote: elmizzt, do you often refer to yourself in the third person?
Cthsazsa, you've used the "they want us to waste our votes" twice now, I believe. I've got my eye on you. You didn't respond well to jackal's tunneling, and now you disregard the reason elmizzt voted for you. FoS Cthsazsa is on my scum list as well as you. This is an attempt to help you appear town down the line when Cthsazsa flips. If you really were town and felt like hunting scum you'd follow up on this. Following this is a few posts regarding posting in third person. These are just spam, unhelpful and misleading, just like your read on Kurumi. Next is his third FoS, Irish_Punk13: Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 21:20 VarpuliS wrote: I'm on the fence between lynching Irish_Punk13 and Kurumi. At this point it seems to me that Irish is only scum if Kurumi is too. People are pushing a lynch on Irish because of the information he'll provide when he flips, but I think that we can get all of that information from a lynch on Kurumi.
Situation A: Kurumi flips scum, it is very likely that Irish is as well. We lynch Irish the next day, and we get our information, just a day later.
Situation B: Kurumi flips town. Irish is probably town, we move on. The only real scumtell from Irish is noting Kurumi's "great posts" which don't exist. If Kurumi is town, then Irish is just an idiot.
I'm posting from my phone, classes start soon and I probably won't have time to check the thread again until the afternoon. This is entirely a push for an information lynch which is a very bad idea. Also, what happened to your case against Irish_Punk13? Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 06:01 VarpuliS wrote:Just got back from school, damn this thread is moving fast. Kurumi's posting hasn't improved, It seems. What sort of townie plan is based upon being scummy and nonsensical to get the town talking and then saying "Guys, i'm not scum, it was all part of the plan?" My vote's staying on him. Someone a couple pages back corrected me about my "lynching for information theory." I think it was Aidnai. Thank you, I'll keep that in mind for the future. On May 06 2011 05:15 Rising_Phoenix wrote: You know what, vote for me. I honestly can't handle so many posts and I don't have time to write something, I know I'm not contributing but I honestly thought I'd have the time to actually contribute to this but I don't. Maybe if there won't be another page of posts by the time I'm done writing this I'd be able to feel like there isn't such a huge amount of information coming in, but if you want me off I honestly don't mind right now. This looks to me like a townie getting bored. I wouldn't be surprised if he gets himself modkilled or replaced. He retracts the information lynch idea, then follows up with a post stating the bleeding obvious about Rising_Phoenix. You still aren't contributing at all other than tunnelling Kurumi hardcore. Follows this with huge reposting of redtooth's arguments, copy-pasted. The only other real post of note he has is this: Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 09:37 VarpuliS wrote: Yo Beneather, you just voted without posting in the thread. Why was this not followed up on? Interestingly enough Cthsasza also brings him up and doesn't do anything about it. CONCLUSION VarpuliS is mafia.He does a whole lot of talking and doesn't actually say anything. He very strongly tried to get Kurumi lynched and did nothing else. He is hiding in plain sight. His complete lack of any contribution other than tunneling Kurumi, self-contradictions and complete disappearance once the Kurumi lynch was certain, plus his interaction with other people I believe to be scum make him dodgy. Actually, I did do something about it. I looked up Beneather's post history in this thread. VarpuliS was wrong. Beneather posted 3 times since the game started. The three posts he made don't have much value to them, though. Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 08:24 Beneather wrote:On May 05 2011 08:22 Forumite wrote: Of these three, I think we have the least to go on with AirbladeOrange, because he´s only got 4 posts so far. He looks more like a slow poster that made a few scumtells. Could you analyze these posts. So that we can see the scumtells you are telling us. We can't just bandwagon a guy just you say he has 4 posts and had a few scumtells. We need a little more than that. He asked Forumite to analyze the posts. Forumite did, but very poorly. After Forumite's analysis, Beneather never commented on it. In fact he never talked about it again. This dude's clearly lurking. As for my one liner, I apologize DropBear. My girlfriend was in the hospital, and I couldn't resist checking up on the thread while I was waiting. So I hastily gave my opinion of him, which was a mistake. I should've waited until now to give my analysis. DropBear, you also said I didn't do anything about it. Well, neither have you. And on your post against VarpuliS, you do a really good job pointing out his slipups. You've pretty much stated why he is one of my FoS. Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 13:08 DropBear wrote: Cthsazsa is on my scum list as well as you. This is an attempt to help you appear town down the line when Cthsazsa flips.
That is exactly what VarpuliS said, you even quoted it. I find that to be a horrible reason to call someone scum. Not because I'm the target in it, but because you can use that argument on literally anyone. ForumiteWhy he is becoming a FoS in my books. + Show Spoiler +On May 06 2011 06:58 Forumite wrote:EBWOP Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 06:51 redtooth wrote:On May 06 2011 06:44 Forumite wrote:On May 06 2011 06:33 redtooth wrote: I am busy today. We will probably end up lynching Kurumi. I was going to ask whether you would want to request a Day Vigi hit on Irish since you're so confident (70% is absolutely ridiculous IMO but you might just like higher numbers) but it's too late and our response would take too long. Worst case scenario, we fumble the lynch and do have a double-townkill round. Wouldn´t wasting a day-vigilante be a bit of a waste? It's not a waste if it's a 70% chance of scumhit. If I was the one pushing it, I'd take those odds anyday. If it really was 70%, the net expected results aren't too bad either: - 70% chance of occurring - We hit Irish, he flips red, we catch a scum we wouldn't have caught otherwise. Net of +1 at the cost of a Day Vigi shot. - 30% chance of occurring - We hit Irish, he flips green, we stop the bandwagon on Kurumi and save a townie. Net of 0 at the cost of a Day Vigi shot. What does 70/30 come from? + Show Spoiler +On May 06 2011 07:04 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 06:59 Kurumi wrote:Again I stayed up for Mafia a bit too long,but I just want to see how it goes,so I will be lurking from my PSP in bed. Just a thought: I flip red,Irish and redtooth are suspicious. 3 Scum giveaway on Day1? Really? I don't think it is possible. I flip blue and people can't understand how I managed to get myself lynched I flip green and Irish and redtooth are not as suspicious,but every person nitpicking and tunneling me is now suspicious,together with bandwagoners and lurkers emerging just to vote on me. + Show Spoiler +I will flip rainbow,maybe even double one If you are blue, now´s the time to roleclaim. Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 07:00 redtooth wrote:On May 06 2011 06:56 Forumite wrote: Where does 70/30 come from? This is the last time I'm helping you. Seriously, stop acting like a baby and do the reasoning yourself. You're quickly losing any credibility you have with your empty questioning. Chaoser stated that he was 70% sure Irish was scum. That is the "70" part of 70/30. The "30" part of 70/30 comes from when you subtract 70 from 100 and then you get 30. Why are you arguing that day-vigilante is a good move by using probabilities you yourself think are wrong? + Show Spoiler +On May 06 2011 06:33 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 06:17 redtooth wrote:On May 06 2011 05:56 Forumite wrote: You said you were checking Kurumi, and I assumed pissing off Kurumi and Irish refered to calling them out on their scummy behavior. AKA tunneling. See scumtells from everything I say don't you. Well whatever, I'll play along for now - I said that the act of pissing off Kurumi and Irish would have made me seem protown since they were getting bandwagoned hard and I would have fit right in with the rest of you all. Instead I kicked the beehive and now (somehow) stand accused of pandering them. I did check out Kurumi. Less confident that he's town but he's still leaning town nonetheless.
On May 06 2011 05:52 Mig wrote: Red I understand it can be important to find townies but we have to lynch someone within the next few hours. So who are you going to vote for and why? We'll see. I don't like realvoting (as opposed to baitvoting) early, especially if I'll probably be around for the deadline and can actually make a difference in the count. If voting was to end 5 minutes from now, I'd put it on Chaoser just out of protest. If I had to be the tiebreaker between Kurumi and KillerSOS, I'd probably put it on Killer. If I had to be the tiebreaker between Kurumi and Irish, I'd probably put it on Chaoser simply because I don't want to be anywhere near those ridiculous lynches. Is it tunneling if you admit that I´m right, that calling Irish and Kurumi scum would be protown right now? + Show Spoiler +On May 06 2011 06:44 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 06:33 redtooth wrote: I am busy today. We will probably end up lynching Kurumi. I was going to ask whether you would want to request a Day Vigi hit on Irish since you're so confident (70% is absolutely ridiculous IMO but you might just like higher numbers) but it's too late and our response would take too long. Worst case scenario, we fumble the lynch and do have a double-townkill round. Wouldn´t wasting a day-vigilante be a bit of a waste? Lets make comparisons between those posts by Forumite. Each of these posts are either asking a question or making a statement to continue the argument. They aren't worth any value, don't contribute, and all they do is draw out pointless/stupid arguments that don't benefit the town. Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 09:00 Forumite wrote: Moving my vote to Kurumi. If we have 20 votes on one person, at least we know it stays there, scum can´t flip the vote at the last second.
##Unvote: redtooth ##Vote: Kurumi In his last post before Kurumi's death, he hops on the bandwagon and switches his vote to Kurumi. My top 3 FoS right now are Beneather, Forumite, and VarspuliS
This I won't really get into, people can draw their own conclusions but I just wanted to make people aware of its existence. He didn't really do much and took up lots of space. He looked up beneather's post history which was at that time 3 posts. Forumite was also analyzed but it still didn't really say anything. He just states Forumite's posts are bad but does not actually analyze them or try to come to any conclusions. He also calls our DropBear put provides no discussion abotu the issue. If anything, the least scummiest thing he does here is post his top 3 suspicious people, which are Beneather (the lurker), Forumite (whose posts he claims don't contribute), and Varspuli (not sure why).
On May 07 2011 07:41 Cthsazsa wrote: It's clear that Redtooth is derailing the thread and taking attention away from scumhunting by creating his own set of rules that we "have" to follow.
Just worth noting for future reference if Redtooth ends up dead. Or could just be scum clutter.
Cthsazsa then goes on to have verbal warfare against conversion.
On May 07 2011 14:31 Cthsazsa wrote: redtooth has been constantly swaying our attention away from scumhunting with discussions, as stated by several other players.
DropBear did a nice job drawing a case against redtooth, so I apologize if I state things he's already said. But I feel I should at least post my reasons for voting him. His posts are inconsistent. As soon as game started he was calling someone scum. Soon after that he posts a guide. Although this reason is debatable, it could have just been made to make him appear pro-town and to divert attention away from his quick accusation. He's been distracting our attention since the game started. Mafia experience discussion, Newb guide, and he even created a set of rules, which we must follow or he will FoS us. That last one has raised my suspicion the most. It could be used to distract us and derail the thread. It could be used to make himself appear protown. If that's the case, it has backfired.
This is his latest post as I began writing this. This confirms his anti-Redtooth stand which seems to be his first stand the entire game. It was his first actual semi-meaningful post in of itself. My raised suspicions on Cthazsa slightly ease my suspicion on Redtooth because of Cthazsa's stand against him.
Pretty much every other post besides the ones I quoted seemed to lack any important information. So subtract whatever number of quotes I have of him from 35 and that is the number of (at least in my opinion) noteworthy material. Lots of useless posts and he is extremely hesitant to make any kind of stand whatsoever until Redtooth. Even then, it is not very strong, lacking analysis as well as conviction.
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