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| iamke55 United States. April 29 2011 12:48. Posts 2805 | Profile Blog # |
5/24 edit: removed naniwa and kiwi replays now that the MLG links don't work anymore
Overview
Naniwa came up with a build that hits almost as hard as a 4 gate, yet expands almost as early as a 1 gate expand. You put pressure on the Terran's front using 6 units when a 4 gate would normally have 7 units. Against most standard Terran builds, this attack will hit at a timing where you will either kill a bunker and the marines inside of it for free, run past it and do heavy damage, or get some free marauder/marine kills while denying the expansion.
The strength of this build is such that IMO the 1 gate expo and 3 gate expo become obsolete on several maps.
I wanted to get more experience with this build before making a thread, but the new patch kills every build so I might as well go ahead now.
Opening Build
- 9 Pylon
- 13 Gateway, scout with probe
- 14 Assimilator
- 16 Pylon (start saving up Nexus energy after 3rd chrono)
- 18 Cybernetics Core
- 19 Zealot
- 22 Gateway
- @100% Cybernetics Core: Warpgate, chrono this as much as possible
- @100 minerals: Pylon, then Sentry as soon as you can afford it
- @100 gas: 2x Stalker
- 32 Pylon (proxy somewhere close to the Terran base)
- @100% Stalkers: walk all units toward Terran base
- 34 Nexus, convert Gateways into Warpgates
- Warp in 2 Stalkers at the proxy
- Attack the Terran player's base and build 2nd Assimilator
Attacking the Terran's base
In this section, I tell you how to play against the various things Terran can do, or things you see when you get to his base. Before doing any of these, suicide your probe up the ramp so you know what to do.
1 bunker by itself at the top of the ramp
Use Guardian Shield and kill it. If SCVs aren't already nearby for repair, you will be able to kill the bunker and all of the marines inside. If there are SCVs nearby, you can either focus them down and then run, or run past the bunker if there's nothing blocking your way. From here you can win the game outright or get some kind of a lead by killing workers, the 1st tank, the 1st banshee or raven, etc. Worst case scenario, you retreat with most of your units alive and you know whether he's going bio or tech.
2 bunkers at the top of the ramp
You can't take these head on so run past them and start causing mayhem in the Terran's base!
Bunker with supporting units
Use Guardian Shield and kill the supporting units, then either retreat or run past the bunker.
No bunker
Use Guardian Shield and kill all of his units! After that try to kill the SCVs that get pulled.
Incomplete Bunker(s) below ramp
You hit the jackpot! Kill the few marines/marauders nearby and the bunker as well, then try to run up the ramp and do as much damage as you can. If you can't kill him, you at least have a large unit advantage to delay the expansion. After this you will either win an easy macro game, or win a very easy macro game.
Complete bunker(s) and command center below ramp
This is a 1 rax expand with no gas, which you could've scouted earlier if you wanted to do a different build instead. Either run past into the main and do as much damage as you can, or go around the bunkers and kill SCVs/deny mining at the expansion. Or if you're not confident, you could always poke to force more bunkers and play a macro game since you have an expansion as well. But if you're not confident, then maybe you should've done a 1 gate expo instead when you scouted no gas...
Full wall-off at the top of the ramp
This is the worst situation because you've lost the option of running past the bunker, and I think if you saw this with your first scouting probe you could consider doing a different build. Preferably one involving a void ray. Nevertheless this isn't unwinnable, as you got your expansion first anyway. Use Guardian Shield and try to kill the bunker/units on top if you can.
Followup
There are a few different ways to play out the mid-game after your first poke. To play the most standard game plan afterward (hopefully with a sizable economic lead due to your attack!), make a Robotics Facility and 3rd Gateway as your expansion comes up. Then build the expo Assimilators and go for Colossus/upgrades as usual. At this point you’re in the same position or better compared to standard play so refer to my PvT guide for late game play, engagement tactics, dealing with drops, etc.
Alternatively, you can play Adel's style by getting a Forge instead of the Robotics Facility. You skip the expansion Assimilators and chrono out armor upgrades while massing gateway units.
If you walked up the ramp and saw a raven all-in, it should be easier to hold than usual due to the damage your units did. Skip the expo gas, cut probes after 38, then just spam units from 4 Gateways and add immortals if you saw tanks.
Replays
Against a 1 rax marauder expand, followed by Adel style:
Last edit: 2011-05-25 11:30:24 |
| | During practice session, I discovered very good build against zerg. -Bisu[Shield] |
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 Pokebunny United States. April 29 2011 13:06. Posts 9624 | Profile Blog # |
| Please don't use my replay as example T___T I played so bad |
| "Spirit Walk in, Spirit Vessel out." - crzytimes | Teamliquid Staff Writer
Quantic.Pokebunny | Pokebunny.703 | quanticgaming.com | twitter.com/Pokebunny | twitch.tv/Pokebunny | |
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| Pokebunny United States. April 29 2011 13:07. Posts 9624 | Profile Blog # |
Kidding I don't mind..
This build is sick good. Nice guide, sad it goes to hell next patch |
| "Spirit Walk in, Spirit Vessel out." - crzytimes | Teamliquid Staff Writer
Quantic.Pokebunny | Pokebunny.703 | quanticgaming.com | twitter.com/Pokebunny | twitch.tv/Pokebunny | |
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| wentzA United States. April 29 2011 13:10. Posts 67 | Profile # |
Interesting!
Looking forward to going over this build in more detail !! |
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| vaderseven United States. April 29 2011 13:11. Posts 2264 | Profile # |
On April 29 2011 13:06 Pokebunny wrote:
Please don't use my replay as example T___T I played so bad
I read your reply before I read the build and thought this might be a proxy 1 gate guide.
For the record, Naniwa played sick good in your series vs him. It was a bad weekend to be paired vs him. |
| | ♥TL Mafia Game, check us out and play with us in the TL Mafia section! / If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate. -Zapp B. | |
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| iamke55 United States. April 29 2011 13:16. Posts 2805 | Profile Blog # |
Wow, the average skill level of people responding to this thread is currently progamer. Purge is working!
Yeah I remember being unable to believe how strong this build was when I first realized it existed. Your first attack could do zero damage and you'd still be sitting almost the same economy as 1 gate expand. And then you realize you have 1 less unit than a 4 gate, so what are the odds of doing zero damage with that? |
| | During practice session, I discovered very good build against zerg. -Bisu[Shield] |
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| Knickknack United States. April 29 2011 13:24. Posts 1187 | Profile # |
Yea thats basically the build, possible to do some slight variations eg 13gas, 16core for bit faster units.
Mainly looks like you are missing proxy pylon before nexus in the BO.
Its not a common builds so its early strength can catch terrans by surprise, but since they can easily scout you going fast 2nd gate terrans should catch on to how many units you can have and be prepared in time. A less aggressive 2gate expo build will give better economy. For comparison sake, an unscouted version of this would be 3gate, same amount of units but attacks 1min later.
With patch can cb units 4x instead of wg for similar effect.
edit- if you robo right after nexus can get ob in time for fast cloak banshee.Last edit: 2011-04-29 13:29:46 |
| | | www.ArtofProtoss.vze.com | | |
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infinity21  Canada. April 29 2011 13:25. Posts 6282 | Profile Blog # |
If I suspect that P is opening with this build, I found that opening banshee can usually deal enough economic damage for me to justify the later cc and the wonky unit composition that I'll get as a follow-up which is typically banshee/tank/marine/marauder with a raven thrown in there for good measure.
edit: Of course, I didn't actually play naniwa using this build so who knows if the robo is supposed to come on time but the few times I ran into this situation, the protoss typically had a robo building but not complete.
edit2: When you play against this build the 1st time, you will think that it's at least a 3 gate. I thought it was a 4 gate until I saw the protoss nat -__- Painuser thought something similar on MrBitter's stream today even though he saw the nat going up. It was obvious he hasn't played against that build before but it is actually pretty popular on ladder nowadaysLast edit: 2011-04-29 13:56:11 |
| | sMi.infinity -- Official Entusman #21! Check my profile for a list of guides. Latest: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=215196 |
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| Rek1zek France. April 29 2011 17:17. Posts 6 | Profile # |
1st post, woo \o/
I use this build for every of my PvT matchup, based on the ChiTaPrime 2 Gate Pressure into Expand Build
edit: Of course, I didn't actually play naniwa using this build so who knows if the robo is supposed to come on time but the few times I ran into this situation, the protoss typically had a robo building but not complete.
I just send my proxy pylon's probe run up the Terran's ramp to check his army composition. If I see heavy marines, i just directly put my Robo, my observer came in perfect timing to counter any clocked banshee. If not, just plant more gateways.
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| WrathOfAiur Germany. April 29 2011 17:29. Posts 242 | Profile # |
wow, this build looks exactly the same, just a 12 gate instead of 13. So the build is not new, just forgotten  |
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| partisan United States. April 29 2011 17:37. Posts 783 | Profile # |
| I think this build will have even more options with decreased gateway build times, going to be fun to add this to my pvt openers. Last edit: 2011-04-29 17:37:49 |
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| iSTime April 29 2011 17:37. Posts 1574 | Profile # |
On April 29 2011 13:25 infinity21 wrote:
If I suspect that P is opening with this build, I found that opening banshee can usually deal enough economic damage for me to justify the later cc and the wonky unit composition that I'll get as a follow-up which is typically banshee/tank/marine/marauder with a raven thrown in there for good measure.
edit: Of course, I didn't actually play naniwa using this build so who knows if the robo is supposed to come on time but the few times I ran into this situation, the protoss typically had a robo building but not complete.
edit2: When you play against this build the 1st time, you will think that it's at least a 3 gate. I thought it was a 4 gate until I saw the protoss nat -__- Painuser thought something similar on MrBitter's stream today even though he saw the nat going up. It was obvious he hasn't played against that build before but it is actually pretty popular on ladder nowadays
You aren't supposed to be able to do (enough) damage with banshees against this build, as it gets an obs out at about 7:15. (EDIT: I make 1 less stalker and 1 more zealot when I do it so that I can throw down a robo right after the 2nd assimilator... maybe it's much weaker to banshees the way other people do it)
Also, random tidbits: Transfer probes to natural right after you warp in the last 2 units at the proxy pylon. The nexus finishes just around there, and you don't want to have to transfer them in the middle of microing your units. Last edit: 2011-04-29 20:19:12 |
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| novabossa United States. April 29 2011 19:42. Posts 350 | Profile Blog # |
On April 29 2011 17:37 partisan wrote:
I think this build will have even more options with decreased gateway build times, going to be fun to add this to my pvt openers.
Incorrect. This build will no longer work if the patch goes through in its current state. Because the build revolves around a timing push, all the timings are extremely precise. Since gateway units will build faster and WG comes later, everything is thrown to hell. Some form of a 2 gate will still be viable, but not this build. |
| | Rachel: First game. oGsMC: Yea. Rachel: Dark Templar. oGsMC: Yea. Rachel: Countered. oGsMC: Yea. Rachel: Were you worried? oGsMC: What? |
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| ROOTMinigun April 29 2011 19:46. Posts 577 | Profile Blog # |
Like said above, it's weak to cloaked banshees. After warping in two stalkers, you will have 0 gas.
I take my assimilator BEFORE making the nexus, it's slows down the push just a little, but saves you if they are going cloaked banshees. Your obs will be out in time and it doesn't really hurt the push. If I see marauders, I don't mine the gas until a bit later.
I love this build, and it has become my standard.Last edit: 2011-04-29 19:47:41 |
| | “Quiet people have the loudest minds.” ― Stephen Hawking |
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| Anomandaris Afghanistan. April 29 2011 19:59. Posts 440 | Profile # |
| This is my preferred build in pvt. I sincerly hope Blizzard will revert some changes of PTR, because otherwise this build will end in the bin. |
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| parn France. April 29 2011 23:17. Posts 296 | Profile # |
| I really love this build, i'm going to try this out and work on it. Thank you |
| | We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit. |
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| Anomandaris Afghanistan. April 30 2011 00:19. Posts 440 | Profile # |
As far I know, it is creatorprime who came up with this build. I would just call it a 2 gate expand build. This build is so amazingly good. I have been using it since february.
However I take the second gas around 26 supply. Why? Against tech builds (tanks, banshees) you want a robo as soon as possible. That isn't possible with a second gas. Against bio openings I like to go zealot sentry heavy, so the faster gas imo is always useful.
The key to the succes of this build is to guess correctly with your poke what terran is doing: 1 rax, 2 rax, hellion drop, banshee, thor, tank, etc.
This build can potentially kill greedy/risky startegies from terran such as can be seen here: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/170460-1v1-terran-protoss-xelnaga-caverns (me vs fnaticfenix) |
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| ROOTheognis United States. April 30 2011 00:34. Posts 4433 | Profile Blog # |
I've had alot of experience vs this build in grandmasters.
If i scout that super early 2nd gate off of 1 gas while I have the plan to go 2 barracks FE, I totally change my plan to just going 2 barracks into medivacs and skipping the expo. Not only are you safe for this early pressure but you can totally RAPE the protoss once the medivacs and stim are out.
Naniwa's build is tailored towards the gradual barracks pressure into CC build. If you skip the CC and just 1 base it with medivacs, the protoss will have no tech to deal with your developed army. His build is a gradual protoss expo that gets the nexus at a funny time and can easly be punished with a simple adapted timing attack.Last edit: 2011-04-30 00:35:05 |
| | If you avoid your weakness, it will remain your weakness. www.twitter.com/#!/rootheognis Follow me! |
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| Anomandaris Afghanistan. April 30 2011 00:36. Posts 440 | Profile # |
On April 30 2011 00:34 YoiChiBow wrote:
I've had alot of experience vs this build in grandmasters.
If i scout that super early 2nd gate off of 1 gas while I have the plan to go 2 barracks FE, I totally change my plan to just going 2 barracks into medivacs and skipping the expo. Not only are you safe for this early pressure but you can totally RAPE the protoss once the medivacs and stim are out.
Naniwa's build is tailored towards the gradual barracks pressure into CC build. If you skip the CC and just 1 base it with medivacs, the protoss will have no tech to deal with your developed army. His build is a gradual protoss expo that gets the nexus at a funny time and can easly be punished with a simple adapted timing attack.
I haven't seen that play in along time, but I agree that 1 base medivacs might be somewhat tough to handle. Do you have an eu account? |
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| infinity21 Canada. April 30 2011 01:47. Posts 6282 | Profile Blog # |
On April 29 2011 17:37 PJA wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 13:25 infinity21 wrote:
If I suspect that P is opening with this build, I found that opening banshee can usually deal enough economic damage for me to justify the later cc and the wonky unit composition that I'll get as a follow-up which is typically banshee/tank/marine/marauder with a raven thrown in there for good measure.
edit: Of course, I didn't actually play naniwa using this build so who knows if the robo is supposed to come on time but the few times I ran into this situation, the protoss typically had a robo building but not complete.
edit2: When you play against this build the 1st time, you will think that it's at least a 3 gate. I thought it was a 4 gate until I saw the protoss nat -__- Painuser thought something similar on MrBitter's stream today even though he saw the nat going up. It was obvious he hasn't played against that build before but it is actually pretty popular on ladder nowadays
You aren't supposed to be able to do (enough) damage with banshees against this build, as it gets an obs out at about 7:15. (EDIT: I make 1 less stalker and 1 more zealot when I do it so that I can throw down a robo right after the 2nd assimilator... maybe it's much weaker to banshees the way other people do it) Also, random tidbits: Transfer probes to natural right after you warp in the last 2 units at the proxy pylon. The nexus finishes just around there, and you don't want to have to transfer them in the middle of microing your units.
Ah I forgot to mention that I get a few marauders so P thinks I'm going bio |
| | sMi.infinity -- Official Entusman #21! Check my profile for a list of guides. Latest: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=215196 |
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