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| DminusTerran Canada. May 08 2011 12:45. Posts 1282 | Profile # |
On May 08 2011 12:41 keV. wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 12:35 Slakter wrote:
On May 08 2011 12:32 keV. wrote:
On May 08 2011 12:28 oldgregg wrote:
On May 08 2011 12:21 keV. wrote:
On May 08 2011 12:19 oldgregg wrote:
On May 08 2011 11:55 Nothingtosay wrote:
Kill a security guard and people still feel bad for you... lets say the other two ere self defense that one most likely wasn't. That security guard didn't deserve to die murderers deserve to rot in prison especially if its worse than death.
why should a security guard get special treatment? you dont know the story, what if the security guard was abusing him (most security people are pretty sadistic). a security guards life isnt worth more than anyone elses. 10,000 days in solitary confinement is harsh whatever way look at it. an eye for an eye makes the world go blind
lol. What? You watch too many movies.
no i think you watch too many movies. in my experience most security guard type people are small minded bullies who want a bit of power. in movies they are portrayed as heroes who beat up bad guys. why would you assume that he killed the other 2 guys in self defence but not the security guard?
I don't assume anything because I can't verify any of it. I also don't make absolute statements based on subjective experiences.
Just an example on how he actually has a point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment(Ironically enough however this experiment has actually become 2 movies but that is beside the point hehe)
I knew someone was going to put this here. This is not relevant at all. You people seem to think prisons are run like fucking Shawshank. It's not the case. Stanford was NONTRAINED people being thrown into positions of authority. If you actually intend to pursue a career in criminal justice you need more than a club and a gun.
In addition Stanford college kids are hardly representative of the populace at large or the kind of people that would seek employment at a correctional facility. |
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| keV. United States. May 08 2011 12:47. Posts 3127 | Profile Blog # |
On May 08 2011 12:45 Slakter wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 12:41 keV. wrote:
On May 08 2011 12:35 Slakter wrote:
On May 08 2011 12:32 keV. wrote:
On May 08 2011 12:28 oldgregg wrote:
On May 08 2011 12:21 keV. wrote:
On May 08 2011 12:19 oldgregg wrote:
On May 08 2011 11:55 Nothingtosay wrote:
Kill a security guard and people still feel bad for you... lets say the other two ere self defense that one most likely wasn't. That security guard didn't deserve to die murderers deserve to rot in prison especially if its worse than death.
why should a security guard get special treatment? you dont know the story, what if the security guard was abusing him (most security people are pretty sadistic). a security guards life isnt worth more than anyone elses. 10,000 days in solitary confinement is harsh whatever way look at it. an eye for an eye makes the world go blind
lol. What? You watch too many movies.
no i think you watch too many movies. in my experience most security guard type people are small minded bullies who want a bit of power. in movies they are portrayed as heroes who beat up bad guys. why would you assume that he killed the other 2 guys in self defence but not the security guard?
I don't assume anything because I can't verify any of it. I also don't make absolute statements based on subjective experiences.
Just an example on how he actually has a point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment(Ironically enough however this experiment has actually become 2 movies but that is beside the point hehe)
I knew someone was going to put this here. This is not relevant at all. You people seem to think prisons are run like fucking Shawshank. It's not the case. Stanford was NONTRAINED people being thrown into positions of authority. If you actually intend to pursue a career in criminal justice you need more than a club and a gun.
Ofcourse, but the Stanford experiments also prove that if you give the wrong person authority then shit will hit the fan pretty hard. Which just might be what happend in this case.
I don't think you even read the wikipedia article you linked. Stanford prison experiment is NOT about the individual, it's about group mentality. You're completely missing the point.
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| | "brevity is the soul of wit" - William Shakesman |
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| moopie May 08 2011 12:48. Posts 12498 | Profile # |
On May 08 2011 12:42 stevarius wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 12:34 SouthWales wrote:
The point of prison isn't to punish its to rehabilitate, while it is obvious that when some one who has nothing to loose starts killing people, he has to be removed from contact with other people. That being said, it does not mean that his solitary confinement had to be as torturous as it was, he could have been placed in a larger cell with some forms of entertainment (like access to the prison library). If the aim of prison is to rehabilitate people into society then his treatment brings up some serious questions about the prison system.
In his scenario, its purpose was to displace him from causing harm to the population.
You can isolate a person without risking their sanity quite this much. Allow some reading materials (other than the bible), a writing utensil (keep a diary, journal, etc), a clock/calendar, etc. Also, even prison isolation deserve more humane conditions. We're not talking about giving them HBO or anything, but having to lie naked on a wet floor to avoid heat exhaustion and having to cover up against welding sparks is pretty extreme. This doesn't read like it was done just for isolation. Last edit: 2011-05-08 12:48:46 |
| | I'm going to sleep, let me get some of that carpet. | |
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| Kaoriyu Canada. May 08 2011 12:49. Posts 261 | Profile Blog # |
God I really have no idea to say about this. He has killed 3 people and that defense was very moving after a full read. I really don't condone what he did but those are conditions that no one deserves to have especially after 20 years of good behavior.
OP it would be awesome if you could update this thread to see what happens to him |
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| DminusTerran Canada. May 08 2011 12:54. Posts 1282 | Profile # |
On May 08 2011 12:45 Slakter wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 12:41 keV. wrote:
On May 08 2011 12:35 Slakter wrote:
On May 08 2011 12:32 keV. wrote:
On May 08 2011 12:28 oldgregg wrote:
On May 08 2011 12:21 keV. wrote:
On May 08 2011 12:19 oldgregg wrote:
On May 08 2011 11:55 Nothingtosay wrote:
Kill a security guard and people still feel bad for you... lets say the other two ere self defense that one most likely wasn't. That security guard didn't deserve to die murderers deserve to rot in prison especially if its worse than death.
why should a security guard get special treatment? you dont know the story, what if the security guard was abusing him (most security people are pretty sadistic). a security guards life isnt worth more than anyone elses. 10,000 days in solitary confinement is harsh whatever way look at it. an eye for an eye makes the world go blind
lol. What? You watch too many movies.
no i think you watch too many movies. in my experience most security guard type people are small minded bullies who want a bit of power. in movies they are portrayed as heroes who beat up bad guys. why would you assume that he killed the other 2 guys in self defence but not the security guard?
I don't assume anything because I can't verify any of it. I also don't make absolute statements based on subjective experiences.
Just an example on how he actually has a point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment(Ironically enough however this experiment has actually become 2 movies but that is beside the point hehe)
I knew someone was going to put this here. This is not relevant at all. You people seem to think prisons are run like fucking Shawshank. It's not the case. Stanford was NONTRAINED people being thrown into positions of authority. If you actually intend to pursue a career in criminal justice you need more than a club and a gun.
Ofcourse, but the Stanford experiments also prove that if you give the wrong person authority then shit will hit the fan pretty hard. Which just might be what happend in this case.
Correctional facilities have checks and balances, unlike a bunch of college kids on a power trip, because their hormones haven't subsided enough to think rationally and behave like normal human beings. I'm of the opinion that the fact that 2 movies have been made about their story also throws a wrench into the legitimacy of their study anyways. People are always looking for fame.
While the treatment of this particular prisoner was especially harsh. It's not extremely surprising if you consider the fact that the man violently attacked and murder a member of the staff who was very likely a friend of many of his co-workers. Essentially he was locked up in a hole and forgotten about, which may not be entirely right, but I don't especially know what they should've done differently other than the same confinement with a larger cell and better basic necessities for Mr. Silverstien. Considering what he did to their peer I could see why they weren't inclined to do him any favors though. |
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| stevarius United States. May 08 2011 12:55. Posts 1368 | Profile # |
On May 08 2011 12:48 moopie wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 12:42 stevarius wrote:
On May 08 2011 12:34 SouthWales wrote:
The point of prison isn't to punish its to rehabilitate, while it is obvious that when some one who has nothing to loose starts killing people, he has to be removed from contact with other people. That being said, it does not mean that his solitary confinement had to be as torturous as it was, he could have been placed in a larger cell with some forms of entertainment (like access to the prison library). If the aim of prison is to rehabilitate people into society then his treatment brings up some serious questions about the prison system.
In his scenario, its purpose was to displace him from causing harm to the population.
You can isolate a person without risking their sanity quite this much. Allow some reading materials (other than the bible), a writing utensil (keep a diary, journal, etc), a clock/calendar, etc. Also, even prison isolation deserve more humane conditions. We're not talking about giving them HBO or anything, but having to lie naked on a wet floor to avoid heat exhaustion and having to cover up against welding sparks is pretty extreme. This doesn't read like it was done just for isolation.
I never questioned whether this displacement was proper or not, I'm just pointing out that your statement about the purpose of prison is situational. I don't believe this confinement was in accordance with the 8th amendment, but that's just me and irrelevant to my other post. |
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| hongo May 08 2011 12:57. Posts 204 | Profile Blog # |
| I can't feel sorry for the guy. Prison should be a punishment, especially after the crimes he committed in prison. After reading wiki on his crimes I am completely unsympathetic for him having to live alone for 4 years. |
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| ryanAnger United States. May 08 2011 12:58. Posts 822 | Profile Blog # |
On May 08 2011 12:21 keV. wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 12:19 oldgregg wrote:
On May 08 2011 11:55 Nothingtosay wrote:
Kill a security guard and people still feel bad for you... lets say the other two ere self defense that one most likely wasn't. That security guard didn't deserve to die murderers deserve to rot in prison especially if its worse than death.
why should a security guard get special treatment? you dont know the story, what if the security guard was abusing him (most security people are pretty sadistic). a security guards life isnt worth more than anyone elses. 10,000 days in solitary confinement is harsh whatever way look at it. an eye for an eye makes the world go blind
lol. What? You watch too many movies.
Actually, he's pretty accurate, one of my best friends and an uncle have both worked as guards at 2 different prisons in the US, and they say that most of the people who work in that position start out "soft" and then eventually come to abuse their power (denying meals, use of unnecessary force, etc.)
It doesn't seem too unlikely that the same could have happened in this situation.
There have been a couple psychological experiments over the years taking a group of normal people and splitting them into "prisoners" and "guards". They've found it's always the guards who decide to go batshit insane. (I'll be back with sources.)
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| Anabolicqt United States. May 08 2011 12:58. Posts 68 | Profile # |
| Killed multiple people. Took away their right to live. All the rights he should have been entitled to as a human being should be forfeit. |
| | Eat, Sleep, Lift......Repeat. |
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| dark14cs May 08 2011 12:58. Posts 143 | Profile Blog # |
"When an inmate kills a guard, he must be punished," a BOP official told author Pete Earley. "We can’t execute Silverstein, so we have no choice but to make his life a living hell. Otherwise other inmates will kill guards too. There has to be some supreme punishment. Every convict knows what Silverstein is going through. We want them to realize that if they cross the same line that he did, they will pay a heavy price."
- Earley, P: “The Hot House Life Inside Leavenworth Prison”. Bantam Books, 1993
Monsters abusing monsters. Last edit: 2011-05-08 12:59:07 |
| | IntoTheWow wrote: i think idra said it best -- the tl admins need to get the sand out of their vaginas |
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 Pengtoss May 08 2011 12:58. Posts 207 | Profile Blog # |
Whether or not he deserved to be isolated is debatable and has been debated, but the fact stands that this is unethical, no matter how you look at it. The prison system may or may not be intended to rehabilitate (I believe it is intended to do so, but that is beside the point right now), but it is certainly not used to exact cruel or unusual punishment, which clearly seems to be the case here.
Life sentences and the death penalty may be used as forms of retribution, I suppose, but retribution certainly is not making the life of another a living hell. |
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| Crazyspoon United States. May 08 2011 12:59. Posts 46 | Profile # |
I feel the OP doesn't do justice to the entirety of the Silverstein case. It is true that Silverstein has been in solitary for decades, and been transferred through multiple prisons in solitary (now residing in the new lv6 supermax in Colorado), but the man has also climbed every step of punishment available.
Silverstein was incarcerated for a nonviolent crime, but while in prison, killed an inmate and wound up in the most secure prison at the time: Marion. At Marion, I believe he killed another inmate (may have been before Marion). Marion was (and still is) on 24/7 lockdown. It is in this condition of inmates being locked in their cells at all times, save for an hour of excercise and a shower weekly, that Silverstein managed an elaborate plan to murder a guard, stabbing him over 40 times. That same day, a friend and gangmate of his murdered another guard.
I do not deny Silverstein's punishment is exceptionally harsh. However, he has certainly made his own bed. He broke the law to become incarcerated, murdered an inmate to be placed in the most secure punishment available, murdered a second inmate because he could, and then managed to murder a corrections officer - all in the most secure environment the extravagantly harsh US prison system has to offer. Ultimately, in Silverstein's case, there simply isn't any other way to keep him secured other than death
Edit: Pete Earley's The Hot House and Van Drehle's Among the Lowest of the Dead are both great sources on this subjectLast edit: 2011-05-08 13:00:35 |
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| keV. United States. May 08 2011 12:59. Posts 3127 | Profile Blog # |
On May 08 2011 12:58 ryanAnger wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 12:21 keV. wrote:
On May 08 2011 12:19 oldgregg wrote:
On May 08 2011 11:55 Nothingtosay wrote:
Kill a security guard and people still feel bad for you... lets say the other two ere self defense that one most likely wasn't. That security guard didn't deserve to die murderers deserve to rot in prison especially if its worse than death.
why should a security guard get special treatment? you dont know the story, what if the security guard was abusing him (most security people are pretty sadistic). a security guards life isnt worth more than anyone elses. 10,000 days in solitary confinement is harsh whatever way look at it. an eye for an eye makes the world go blind
lol. What? You watch too many movies.
Actually, he's pretty accurate, one of my best friends and an uncle have both worked as guards at 2 different prisons in the US, and they say that most of the people who work in that position start out "soft" and then eventually come to abuse their power (denying meals, use of unnecessary force, etc.) It doesn't seem too unlikely that the same could have happened in this situation. There have been a couple psychological experiments over the years taking a group of normal people and splitting them into "prisoners" and "guards". They've found it's always the guards who decide to go batshit insane. (I'll be back with sources.)
That won't be necessary. You can just read the last few pages.
I will again point out that you are referencing something SUBJECTIVE.
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| | "brevity is the soul of wit" - William Shakesman |
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| ryanAnger United States. May 08 2011 13:03. Posts 822 | Profile Blog # |
On May 08 2011 12:59 keV. wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 12:58 ryanAnger wrote:
On May 08 2011 12:21 keV. wrote:
On May 08 2011 12:19 oldgregg wrote:
On May 08 2011 11:55 Nothingtosay wrote:
Kill a security guard and people still feel bad for you... lets say the other two ere self defense that one most likely wasn't. That security guard didn't deserve to die murderers deserve to rot in prison especially if its worse than death.
why should a security guard get special treatment? you dont know the story, what if the security guard was abusing him (most security people are pretty sadistic). a security guards life isnt worth more than anyone elses. 10,000 days in solitary confinement is harsh whatever way look at it. an eye for an eye makes the world go blind
lol. What? You watch too many movies.
Actually, he's pretty accurate, one of my best friends and an uncle have both worked as guards at 2 different prisons in the US, and they say that most of the people who work in that position start out "soft" and then eventually come to abuse their power (denying meals, use of unnecessary force, etc.) It doesn't seem too unlikely that the same could have happened in this situation. There have been a couple psychological experiments over the years taking a group of normal people and splitting them into "prisoners" and "guards". They've found it's always the guards who decide to go batshit insane. (I'll be back with sources.)
That won't be necessary. You can just read the last few pages. I will again point out that you are referencing something SUBJECTIVE.
Were all of these Stanford "officers" bad people? What was their motivation for doing so? I'm in the military, and I've personally seen what a position of power can do to the mindset of an individual, and it happens surprisingly often.
The fact of the matter is, despite "checks and balances" (we are the US, btw, a place where checks and balances don't exactly account for much other than a dog and pony show), if you give a group of people power, they are going to abuse it, it's just a matter of time. |
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| zJayy962 May 08 2011 13:05. Posts 1313 | Profile Blog # |
| After reading the whole statement, I'd say it is a fascinating read. It provides a perspective that you would never ever see. A deep sadness has come over me. |
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| Mechwarrior United States. May 08 2011 13:06. Posts 76 | Profile # |
Solitary confinement, in my opinion, is a death sentence. I remember learning about Russian Gulags and how they would get information out of people by sticking them in solitary confinement for about a month with a light in the room that would blink every 12 hours. Then after a week, the blink of the light would happen once every day, changed the next week to every 6 hours (something along those lines). They also would have loud noise fill the room at random intervals. That would cause disorientation, and lead to the prisoner spilling out all of the information they had.
Either way, solitary confinement is horrific. |
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| keV. United States. May 08 2011 13:06. Posts 3127 | Profile Blog # |
On May 08 2011 13:03 ryanAnger wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 12:59 keV. wrote:
On May 08 2011 12:58 ryanAnger wrote:
On May 08 2011 12:21 keV. wrote:
On May 08 2011 12:19 oldgregg wrote:
On May 08 2011 11:55 Nothingtosay wrote:
Kill a security guard and people still feel bad for you... lets say the other two ere self defense that one most likely wasn't. That security guard didn't deserve to die murderers deserve to rot in prison especially if its worse than death.
why should a security guard get special treatment? you dont know the story, what if the security guard was abusing him (most security people are pretty sadistic). a security guards life isnt worth more than anyone elses. 10,000 days in solitary confinement is harsh whatever way look at it. an eye for an eye makes the world go blind
lol. What? You watch too many movies.
Actually, he's pretty accurate, one of my best friends and an uncle have both worked as guards at 2 different prisons in the US, and they say that most of the people who work in that position start out "soft" and then eventually come to abuse their power (denying meals, use of unnecessary force, etc.) It doesn't seem too unlikely that the same could have happened in this situation. There have been a couple psychological experiments over the years taking a group of normal people and splitting them into "prisoners" and "guards". They've found it's always the guards who decide to go batshit insane. (I'll be back with sources.)
That won't be necessary. You can just read the last few pages. I will again point out that you are referencing something SUBJECTIVE.
Were all of these Stanford "officers" bad people? What was their motivation for doing so? I'm in the military, and I've personally seen what a position of power can do to the mindset of an individual, and it happens surprisingly often. The fact of the matter is, despite "checks and balances" (we are the US, btw, a place where checks and balances don't exactly account for much other than a dog and pony show), if you give a group of people power, they are going to abuse it, it's just a matter of time.
This argument makes NO SENSE AT ALL. Guess what if you're a guard and you're an asshole, your salary is the SAME as a guard who's just swell. What possible motivation do you have for being a dick?
This is why your US Gov't comparison is pointless.
I've already explained why the SPE doesn't hold any weight in this situation.
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| | "brevity is the soul of wit" - William Shakesman |
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| Hidden_MotiveS Canada. May 08 2011 13:07. Posts 2019 | Profile Blog # |
On May 08 2011 11:23 Dimagus wrote:
Abolish life sentences except for plea deals, and stop pussying out on the death penalty.
Armed robbery at 19, 3 murders in prison including a guard. Stick a needle in his arm and stop paying for this guy's 3 meals a day.
I hear this quite a lot on these forums. People think that they should have the right to judge another man to the death penalty.
I remember I used to think like that. There was this girl in my AP Lit class in high school, she said that we don't actually know where people go when they die. We could be sending them to an eternity of torture. By this logic, people don't have the right to put death on any other individual unless it is to save a life itself.
Now I don't actually believe in a hell, but I can't prove that there is nothing that happens after death. I don't have the right to think that anyone deserves to die. |
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| dark14cs May 08 2011 13:07. Posts 143 | Profile Blog # | |
| | IntoTheWow wrote: i think idra said it best -- the tl admins need to get the sand out of their vaginas |
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| Mioraka Canada. May 08 2011 13:08. Posts 1352 | Profile Blog # |
There's something called the death penalty.
And someone told me the modern legal system doesn't work based on punishments, but prevention :/.Last edit: 2011-05-08 13:10:08 |
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