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 djbhINDI United States. June 21 2011 04:45. Posts 372 | Profile # |
On June 17 2011 04:10 Crabman123 wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 03:17 lyAsakura wrote:
On June 16 2011 22:22 Crabman123 wrote:
How do you deal with 1 basing Ps? Let me be a little more specific, none of the pros ever one base anymore so they can just go under the assumption that there oponnent will never 1 base but on the D-D+ range Ps 1 basing is quite frequent. So how do you deal with the possible threat of 1 base play when you often need to send your drone out to the 3rd if you want to be even with a FE even before you see what your opponent is doing?
Any two base hydra build to deal with the fast corsair, then go hydra range and spore up a little bit... you can afford to play very safe because protoss can't get out much on one base. if he goes DT's, spore up and eventually lurker bust him... the only way he can hold the lurker bust is to cannon up, and if he does that, just contain him and eventually bust him through sheer econ. if he goes reavers, get burrow and don't lose too much to reaver harass and you should be way ahead. mass gateway can be held off with just hydra ling. as long as you don't lose too much, you should be fine. the winning key against one base protoss is to not lose too much and use superior eco and tech switches from muta to hydra and back to destroy him. he cannot have enough gas to get corsairs and hts on one base.. if he somehow does have both, then you are doing something wrong or you have to start scouting expos with a ling
Thats not really what I was asking. What I really want to know is how do you deal with the threat of a 1 base play. Not actually dealing with a 1 base play. Should you drone scout on 10 or something to determine whether he is 1 basing or FFE. Because I often have to cancel my 3rd because he is 1 basing and that leaves me a little behind, but if I don't send a drone to the 3rd and plant it down I will be behind FFE. But I just want to know the rational about pros never drone scouting vs P and how they are so confident against 1 base play that they are willing to play a blind risk.
Forget about the pros, they have the chops necessary to deal with whatever their later lord/drone sees. Just scout at 10-12 whenever you FE on bigger maps
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| | You can't emphasize enough how much you need to be a paradigm shifter. - Savior |
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| JMave Singapore. June 21 2011 14:00. Posts 1754 | Profile Blog # |
On June 21 2011 03:44 ZeKk wrote:Sry I should have clarified. I used to exercise rax-fe alot before and I followed flash opening on this game on how to do it. http://www.2shared.com/file/Ef6_sACK/3932640_By_Flash.htmlI follow it throughly and blindly until I push out and engage, then I might transition to something else than flash. But I almost always lose when doing that push even against double nexus, toss always have enough goons to stop me (8-10) so I cant belive how flash make it against 2 base's only. I move out at the same time as he does and with the same army but still lose.. Sry for off topic. So how do you "feel" the economy is greater? I dont significantly notice I have more than usual and I certainly dont feel ahead of protoss especially when his third kicks in.. I personaly feel flash get his gas too late and as I follow it I somtimes get my bunker break against 3 gate goons or more. and every other hassle reparing bunker incessantly losing alot of minerals. So with that in mind do you really have more and is it worth it all the time (except when toss goes for all in obviously) p.s I hope it make some sense, Im really tired now 
Hmm. Your clarification doesn't seem to have relevance to siege expand economy at all. Anyway if your rax fe is being destroyed by 3 goons, then it appears that you will really need to work on your reaction and defense. It would be great to see a replay Of yourself replicating flash's build so that we can look at your timings and see if it matches what flash does. If you really like rax fe play, the stork vs fantasy finals is a good series to see different variations of it and how to go about doing it |
| | 火心 Jealous. I always loved that feeling when I was young. Embrace it. | |
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| Magus Canada. June 21 2011 15:38. Posts 292 | Profile Blog # |
On June 21 2011 14:00 JMave wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 21 2011 03:44 ZeKk wrote:Sry I should have clarified. I used to exercise rax-fe alot before and I followed flash opening on this game on how to do it. http://www.2shared.com/file/Ef6_sACK/3932640_By_Flash.htmlI follow it throughly and blindly until I push out and engage, then I might transition to something else than flash. But I almost always lose when doing that push even against double nexus, toss always have enough goons to stop me (8-10) so I cant belive how flash make it against 2 base's only. I move out at the same time as he does and with the same army but still lose.. Sry for off topic. So how do you "feel" the economy is greater? I dont significantly notice I have more than usual and I certainly dont feel ahead of protoss especially when his third kicks in.. I personaly feel flash get his gas too late and as I follow it I somtimes get my bunker break against 3 gate goons or more. and every other hassle reparing bunker incessantly losing alot of minerals. So with that in mind do you really have more and is it worth it all the time (except when toss goes for all in obviously) p.s I hope it make some sense, Im really tired now
Hmm. Your clarification doesn't seem to have relevance to siege expand economy at all. Anyway if your rax fe is being destroyed by 3 goons, then it appears that you will really need to work on your reaction and defense. It would be great to see a replay Of yourself replicating flash's build so that we can look at your timings and see if it matches what flash does. If you really like rax fe play, the stork vs fantasy finals is a good series to see different variations of it and how to go about doing it
He said 3 GATE goons, not just 3 goons. Maybe the tanks are out late? |
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| JMave Singapore. June 21 2011 18:23. Posts 1754 | Profile Blog # |
On June 21 2011 15:38 Magus wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 21 2011 14:00 JMave wrote:
On June 21 2011 03:44 ZeKk wrote:Sry I should have clarified. I used to exercise rax-fe alot before and I followed flash opening on this game on how to do it. http://www.2shared.com/file/Ef6_sACK/3932640_By_Flash.htmlI follow it throughly and blindly until I push out and engage, then I might transition to something else than flash. But I almost always lose when doing that push even against double nexus, toss always have enough goons to stop me (8-10) so I cant belive how flash make it against 2 base's only. I move out at the same time as he does and with the same army but still lose.. Sry for off topic. So how do you "feel" the economy is greater? I dont significantly notice I have more than usual and I certainly dont feel ahead of protoss especially when his third kicks in.. I personaly feel flash get his gas too late and as I follow it I somtimes get my bunker break against 3 gate goons or more. and every other hassle reparing bunker incessantly losing alot of minerals. So with that in mind do you really have more and is it worth it all the time (except when toss goes for all in obviously) p.s I hope it make some sense, Im really tired now
Hmm. Your clarification doesn't seem to have relevance to siege expand economy at all. Anyway if your rax fe is being destroyed by 3 goons, then it appears that you will really need to work on your reaction and defense. It would be great to see a replay Of yourself replicating flash's build so that we can look at your timings and see if it matches what flash does. If you really like rax fe play, the stork vs fantasy finals is a good series to see different variations of it and how to go about doing it
He said 3 GATE goons, not just 3 goons. Maybe the tanks are out late?
oops my bad i didnt read it properly.
EDIT: but no matter, your tank and siege should be done in time to hold off a 3 gate goon regardless.Last edit: 2011-06-21 18:25:10 |
| | 火心 Jealous. I always loved that feeling when I was young. Embrace it. | |
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| Rodiel3 France. June 21 2011 23:07. Posts 1062 | Profile # |
I dont know where to post it so I go here
Is there an active Twitter account about SCBW proleague and news about SCBW in general, those i have find are dead :/
Thank you |
| | http://www.youtube.com/user/rodiel3 SCBW FPVOD |
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| Danger_Duck Burkina Faso. June 22 2011 10:51. Posts 571 | Profile Blog # |
On June 20 2011 06:12 Release wrote:
Why do zergs use ultralisks? Every time i see them, they die so quick and are incredibly cost inefficient. Tanks and mines melt ultras. Reavers and archons melt ultras. They cost 200 gas.
For example, lots of people use ultras against mech, and their economy is drained. Zero (against flash on benzene) used tons of lings and hydras (and queens) and it was much more cost efficient.
2 related reasons:
1. HP
Ultras tank so that your lings/hydras/lurks can actually get in range.
2. AI
In large armies, enemy units eventually focus on ultras that are meaty and defensive. As lings die, enemy units re-target the survivor-> the ultra.
So essentially, YES. Ultras suck if they are used alone, but their role isn't a mass unit, but as a support to your damage-dealing units that are weak |
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| Danger_Duck Burkina Faso. June 22 2011 11:14. Posts 571 | Profile Blog # |
| Just as a follow up, you'll notice that bio balls can simply move away from dark swarms and kill lings as they come, but they RUN from ultras because unlike swarm, they are very mobile. They tank the damage from your rines to get the lings in range, especially if you are at an upgrade disadvantage |
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| JMave Singapore. June 22 2011 18:50. Posts 1754 | Profile Blog # |
On June 22 2011 10:51 Danger_Duck wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 20 2011 06:12 Release wrote:
Why do zergs use ultralisks? Every time i see them, they die so quick and are incredibly cost inefficient. Tanks and mines melt ultras. Reavers and archons melt ultras. They cost 200 gas.
For example, lots of people use ultras against mech, and their economy is drained. Zero (against flash on benzene) used tons of lings and hydras (and queens) and it was much more cost efficient.
2 related reasons: 1. HP Ultras tank so that your lings/hydras/lurks can actually get in range. 2. AI In large armies, enemy units eventually focus on ultras that are meaty and defensive. As lings die, enemy units re-target the survivor-> the ultra. So essentially, YES. Ultras suck if they are used alone, but their role isn't a mass unit, but as a support to your damage-dealing units that are weak
But the deal is that ultras take full damage from tank shots. Meaning that it is least cost-efficient amongst lings and hydras. Because the whole concept about dealing with mech is to attack based on waves to slowly break his defence line, ultras become even more worse because you probably wont have enough gas to sustain them. |
| | 火心 Jealous. I always loved that feeling when I was young. Embrace it. | |
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| duplex__ Germany. June 22 2011 22:47. Posts 12 | Profile # |
QUESTION:
do you research Khaydarin Amulet and if so, when?
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| hacklebeast United States. June 22 2011 22:55. Posts 4635 | Profile Blog # |
| If your countering mech with defiler ultra ling, the logic is that ultras (despite taking full damage) still are able to take more hits, so it is less likely that the tank line is able to kill the army as fast as it can approach. If you age going defiler ling, then you have extra gas than what the defiles and a few lurkers can take up, so it might as well be ultras. There are almost always a skirt of vultures around the siege tanks, so ultras can soak up that type of damage that swarms miss. |
| | Protoss: Best, Paralyze, Jangbi, Nal_Ra || Terran: Oov, Boxer, Fantasy, Hiya|| Zerg: Yellow, Zero |
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| Funnytoss Taiwan. June 22 2011 23:00. Posts 1340 | Profile Blog # |
On June 22 2011 22:47 duplex__ wrote:
QUESTION:
do you research Khaydarin Amulet and if so, when?
It's a good upgrade to get when you start floating a bit of surplus gas, as long as it doesn't cut into your unit count. It's useful primarily for those HT you station at static defenses (being able to throw 3 storms instead of 2 is huge), and they start with more energy, which is of course, awesome. |
| | AIV_Funnytoss and sGs.Funnytoss on iCCup |
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| ZeKk Sweden. June 23 2011 04:25. Posts 317 | Profile Blog # |
On June 21 2011 14:00 JMave wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 21 2011 03:44 ZeKk wrote:Sry I should have clarified. I used to exercise rax-fe alot before and I followed flash opening on this game on how to do it. http://www.2shared.com/file/Ef6_sACK/3932640_By_Flash.htmlI follow it throughly and blindly until I push out and engage, then I might transition to something else than flash. But I almost always lose when doing that push even against double nexus, toss always have enough goons to stop me (8-10) so I cant belive how flash make it against 2 base's only. I move out at the same time as he does and with the same army but still lose.. Sry for off topic. So how do you "feel" the economy is greater? I dont significantly notice I have more than usual and I certainly dont feel ahead of protoss especially when his third kicks in.. I personaly feel flash get his gas too late and as I follow it I somtimes get my bunker break against 3 gate goons or more. and every other hassle reparing bunker incessantly losing alot of minerals. So with that in mind do you really have more and is it worth it all the time (except when toss goes for all in obviously) p.s I hope it make some sense, Im really tired now
Hmm. Your clarification doesn't seem to have relevance to siege expand economy at all. Anyway if your rax fe is being destroyed by 3 goons, then it appears that you will really need to work on your reaction and defense. It would be great to see a replay Of yourself replicating flash's build so that we can look at your timings and see if it matches what flash does. If you really like rax fe play, the stork vs fantasy finals is a good series to see different variations of it and how to go about doing it
No, it hasn't. I was refering to which kind of Fast CC I was playing when I wrote that. I'll try to see if I can find some adequate replays(was a while since I played this strategy). But I hope you understand my question. I try to put it simple. Is any kind of fast CC before factory worth the trouble in economy you have to sacrifes to uphold your expansion compared to a more normal fac expansion e.g. Siege expansion? And follow up question: If so, how much does the economy differs? A good example I'd say is to see the diffrence in time e.g in what minute has the FE before fac actually superiority to the e.g siege expand FE. To me it's hard to see any real diffrence, but that's just me! So Im sure it's a good reason why pros does it. I just dont understand that reason too well since either A: Toss just takes another exp fast and gets ahead of me and when I try to punish him(in the way flash push in that game) I lose anyway(especially if he stays on 2 base obv). B: I just dont see the diffrence in economy in general to a siege expand ( but I havent looked throughly enough perhapes?):S |
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| djbhINDI United States. June 23 2011 06:38. Posts 372 | Profile # |
This is about TL...I vote on Liquibets, but it says I have 0/0 votes, 0/0 points, etc.
EDIT: Never mindLast edit: 2011-07-03 10:14:32 |
| | You can't emphasize enough how much you need to be a paradigm shifter. - Savior |
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| Surili United Kingdom. June 23 2011 07:01. Posts 1077 | Profile Blog # |
How should i follow up successfully defending a six pool as P?
For instance i scout it immediately, throw down forge, gate cannon at ramp, all is dandy. Do i rush to four gate and kill him or do i expand and go collosus? I am wary of doing this, as it has cost me many games because i am a very passive player in PvZ :/ |
| | "It is not a mistake to have strong views, it is a mistake to have nothing else." - Andrew Weston * * * Masters Protoss on EU. | |
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| KTF_CloaK Netherlands. June 23 2011 07:07. Posts 1337 | Profile Blog # |
On June 23 2011 07:01 Surili wrote:
How should i follow up successfully defending a six pool as P?
For instance i scout it immediately, throw down forge, gate cannon at ramp, all is dandy. Do i rush to four gate and kill him or do i expand and go collosus? I am wary of doing this, as it has cost me many games because i am a very passive player in PvZ :/
May I kindly redirect you to the sc2 strategy forum? This is BW good sir |
| | KT Rolster for the win!! Lee-Young-Ho hwaiting!! |
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| Magus Canada. June 23 2011 07:07. Posts 292 | Profile Blog # |
On June 23 2011 07:01 Surili wrote:
How should i follow up successfully defending a six pool as P?
For instance i scout it immediately, throw down forge, gate cannon at ramp, all is dandy. Do i rush to four gate and kill him or do i expand and go collosus? I am wary of doing this, as it has cost me many games because i am a very passive player in PvZ :/
Wrong forum... |
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| Release United States. June 23 2011 07:09. Posts 3973 | Profile Blog # |
| Zerg has 4 pool, terran has 5 rax, what does protoss have (immediate rush)? |
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| Surili United Kingdom. June 23 2011 07:09. Posts 1077 | Profile Blog # |
:D this is what i get for using the search function ^^
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| | "It is not a mistake to have strong views, it is a mistake to have nothing else." - Andrew Weston * * * Masters Protoss on EU. | |
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| blubbdavid Switzerland. June 23 2011 07:33. Posts 2242 | Profile Blog # |
| How do you react in ZvP if he makes gassteal and pressures your hatching natural with lots? |
| | What do you desire? Money? Glory? Power? Revenge? Or something that surpasses all other? Whatever you desire - that is here. Tower of God |
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| Danger_Duck Burkina Faso. June 23 2011 10:24. Posts 571 | Profile Blog # |
On June 22 2011 18:50 JMave wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 10:51 Danger_Duck wrote:
On June 20 2011 06:12 Release wrote:
Why do zergs use ultralisks? Every time i see them, they die so quick and are incredibly cost inefficient. Tanks and mines melt ultras. Reavers and archons melt ultras. They cost 200 gas.
For example, lots of people use ultras against mech, and their economy is drained. Zero (against flash on benzene) used tons of lings and hydras (and queens) and it was much more cost efficient.
2 related reasons: 1. HP Ultras tank so that your lings/hydras/lurks can actually get in range. 2. AI In large armies, enemy units eventually focus on ultras that are meaty and defensive. As lings die, enemy units re-target the survivor-> the ultra. So essentially, YES. Ultras suck if they are used alone, but their role isn't a mass unit, but as a support to your damage-dealing units that are weak
But the deal is that ultras take full damage from tank shots. Meaning that it is least cost-efficient amongst lings and hydras. Because the whole concept about dealing with mech is to attack based on waves to slowly break his defence line, ultras become even more worse because you probably wont have enough gas to sustain them.
I answered generically on why ultras are used based on why they appear to be inefficient on paper.
As for mech, you are way off. The whole concept about dealing with mech either kill them off early or to take the map while harassing if they turtle too hard. Once the map is taken, you never throw your units into a meatgrinder. You abuse your mobility by picking off reinforcements and countering rather than force a direct engagement. |
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