Thank you all for your answers, personally I think the "check how much gas he has mined by clicking on the geyser" one is a good way to detect muta play (but how much lol ? 300 gas ?)
Khassar de Templari
ThePianoDentist United Kingdom. September 03 2011 02:45. Posts 484
On August 31 2011 18:18 Hershey wrote: I never followed the Brood War scene, but played a lot. Was / is the Dark Archon's ability mind control used very often in Professional Starcraft? If so why/why not.
used occasionally, but not often as others have said very expensive.
If you want to see a pro game with a ridiculous amount of mind-control. we're talking mind controlling the neutral critters running round the map for a laugh then watch this:
Brood War Protoss, SC2 Terran/Protoss
krndandaman Mozambique. September 03 2011 03:10. Posts 4374
On September 02 2011 07:02 kamikami wrote: In PvZ, first corsair goes to Zerg base and see the spire and some eggs, how to know if it's standard 3 hatch spire to 5 hatch hydra or 3 hatch muta play ? Wait for the eggs to morphe can be too late if it's 3 hatch muta, unless P plays ultra safe and cannon both main and natural up.
if hes going straight for mutas then check hatchery count. you can't have 5 hatcheries and go straight to mutas. also, check gas timing. if he got early 2nd gas chances are its muta. if u dont get the chance, once ur corsair gets there click on the 2nd gas geyser and check how much gas he mined. if he mined alot its prob mutas. also check if hes saving larvae. if he saved 3 at each hatchery its a sign that its muta.
hatch count isn't accurate because if he gets 5 mutas, he can still get 5th hatch just that it is delayed and then resume to get more mutas. but second gas count is most accurate.
but by then you'd have plenty of time to prepare for muta. your sair will see mutas pop and you can just plant cannons then and continue sair production. should be easy enough to defend.
dont think hes having a problem with that kind of muta build.
well, that isn't completely right either. if you stopped sairs after first sair and only continue to make them after you see mutas pop, then you will be in for lots of damage in your main. this muta timing was specifically designed to counter players who only made 1 sair for the purpose of scouting.
6 mutas come with a pair of scourge and the mutas can easily deal with your cannon while the scourge take care of your sairs. the reason why this wasn't seen so often was because if sair production was maintained(which zerg has no way of telling), then his mutas would be countered directly with no significant damage being done and the delay in hydra upgrades leaves him very susceptible to +1 timing attack.
of course, this isn't the point of the post. the point is that muta builds don't always lack a 5th hatch and hence it is not very reliable sign that tells of mutas.
oh i was assuming you continue sairs because you would have 3 sairs by the time the 6 mutas come with 2 more cannons almost finished. and zerg's gonna need that 2nd gas early anyways so i think it would still be pretty obvious and you would be dumb to stop sair production.
either way, yeah my point was also lack of 5th hatch = mutas, not mutas = lack of 5th hatch.
How many Gates can each Base with constant Probe production support without making it an all-in? How many Gates do I have to cut to make Reavers and start upgrades?
Last edit: 2011-09-03 05:39:44
MaRiNe23 United States. September 04 2011 08:27. Posts 723
I didnt want to create a new thread for this but I was just wondering if anyone knew the title for the song that comes right after the players finish playing in jinair osl? It starts off "this time"
We have competitive ladder, strong community, progaming in Korea going strong, perfectly balanced game..why do we need sc2? #1 ANTI-SC2 fan
Release United States. September 04 2011 08:38. Posts 3973
During a broadcast game on September 16, 2009, OGN commentator Um Jae Kyung (엄재경) briefly discussed the difference between a bunker rush and a "cheese" rush. According to his explanation, the term "cheese" originated from the word "cheater's" (words in Korean are sometimes shortened by the middle syllables, so 치터즈 [chi tuh zu] would become 치즈 [chi zu]). The strategy is characterized by, as opposed to a simple bunker rush, a practically unbeatable combination of most of the Terran's SCVs and a very quickly assembled group of marines. Because both Protoss and Zerg basic units are unranged, SCVs can effectively prevent the ranged marines from being destroyed by obstructing the path between the units, giving the marines a tremendous (and thus unfair) edge.
The usage of the term "cheese" has expanded to include most "all-in" strategies which involve a great sacrifice of economy, though some StarCraft communities use the term even more loosely to include mid-game strategies.
What do you desire? Money? Glory? Power? Revenge? Or something that surpasses all other? Whatever you desire - that is here. Tower of God
In tvp, my opponent does some aggressive opening that fails miserably (e.g. loses shuttle and reaver doing no damage) and then decides to take his 3rd. If I see that and expand myself, am I giving up an advantage? If I see that and decide to go for a 2 base timing, can't my opponent always stall enough for his 3rd to kick in? every time I try this they always find a way to go around my army, even if a complete roundabout of the map is necessary, and force me to turn back or lose.
During a broadcast game on September 16, 2009, OGN commentator Um Jae Kyung (엄재경) briefly discussed the difference between a bunker rush and a "cheese" rush. According to his explanation, the term "cheese" originated from the word "cheater's" (words in Korean are sometimes shortened by the middle syllables, so 치터즈 [chi tuh zu] would become 치즈 [chi zu]). The strategy is characterized by, as opposed to a simple bunker rush, a practically unbeatable combination of most of the Terran's SCVs and a very quickly assembled group of marines. Because both Protoss and Zerg basic units are unranged, SCVs can effectively prevent the ranged marines from being destroyed by obstructing the path between the units, giving the marines a tremendous (and thus unfair) edge.
The usage of the term "cheese" has expanded to include most "all-in" strategies which involve a great sacrifice of economy, though some StarCraft communities use the term even more loosely to include mid-game strategies.
Cheese was also a term used in chess and a few other games if I'm remembering correctly from the last time a discussion on the origin of cheese popped up in the forums.
CaffeineFree-_- United States. September 04 2011 13:06. Posts 641
On September 04 2011 10:42 dementrio wrote: In tvp, my opponent does some aggressive opening that fails miserably (e.g. loses shuttle and reaver doing no damage) and then decides to take his 3rd. If I see that and expand myself, am I giving up an advantage? If I see that and decide to go for a 2 base timing, can't my opponent always stall enough for his 3rd to kick in? every time I try this they always find a way to go around my army, even if a complete roundabout of the map is necessary, and force me to turn back or lose.
If you hit the timing right that shouldn't even be an option for him. You should be able to kill his army head on ezpz.
He had no chance at all, your games should go like this.
Also matching expo timing seems fine to me, you lose your chance to instantly end the game, and if he takes a fast 4th you can just push out and kill him even if you started 3rd cc.
We say we love flowers, yet we pluck them. We say we love trees, yet we cut them down. And people still wonder why some are afraid when told they are loved
Release United States. September 04 2011 17:03. Posts 3973
Has Jaedong ever beaten straight up mech (other than the one where fantasy proxied a base and skipped turrets)? I've seen baby beat jaedong (triathlon), flash beat jaedong(most notably katrina), and light beat jaedong(in the batoo osl).
Also, does dematrix take reduced damage from attack types (explosive on small, concussive on large,etc)? For instance, does a dmatrixed marine take 40 shield or 20 shield damage from a sunken?
Last edit: 2011-09-04 17:46:24
☺
Bwenjarin Raffrack United States. September 04 2011 21:26. Posts 299
On September 04 2011 17:03 Release wrote: Has Jaedong ever beaten straight up mech (other than the one where fantasy proxied a base and skipped turrets)? I've seen baby beat jaedong (triathlon), flash beat jaedong(most notably katrina), and light beat jaedong(in the batoo osl).
Also, does dematrix take reduced damage from attack types (explosive on small, concussive on large,etc)? For instance, does a dmatrixed marine take 40 shield or 20 shield damage from a sunken?
Of course, many times. It wasn't hard to find examples just glancing through his vT game history.
And no, defensive matrix ignores unit size and armor. Each attack is absorbed by the matrix for its full damage, and the matrixed unit takes 0.5 damage for each attack it receives as long as the matrix lasts.
I'm not as thunk as dreople pink I am.
therockmanxx Peru. September 05 2011 11:07. Posts 1095
PvZ, Zerg does 3 hatch spire -> 5 hatch hydra, but take the 4th very early (right when the simcity at 3th is completed). Zerg then proceed to make hydras, lurkers and mutalisks to deny map control. As a Protoss, how to deal with that early 4th ?
a) Build tons of gates and try to make a big army from 2 base and try to break the sim-city before hive tech ? (too much all-in ?) b) When Zerg takes 4th, toss takes 3th right away to catch up economically ? (but at that time Toss still lacks map control since he has only Zealots while zerg can build a ton of hydras + muta) c) ???
Thanks
Khassar de Templari
ThePianoDentist United Kingdom. September 07 2011 07:39. Posts 484
is it me or since new iccup season is every D level PvZ a zerg all-in? is it people just trying to cheese back to their previous rank or am I just getting unlucky?
edit to guy below me: then fml because its literally been 90% of PvZ's I've played new season are all-ins. at least im getting enough practice to now start spotting and holding them off.
Last edit: 2011-09-07 07:50:30
Brood War Protoss, SC2 Terran/Protoss
krndandaman Mozambique. September 07 2011 07:45. Posts 4374
On September 07 2011 06:51 kamikami wrote: PvZ, Zerg does 3 hatch spire -> 5 hatch hydra, but take the 4th very early (right when the simcity at 3th is completed). Zerg then proceed to make hydras, lurkers and mutalisks to deny map control. As a Protoss, how to deal with that early 4th ?
a) Build tons of gates and try to make a big army from 2 base and try to break the sim-city before hive tech ? (too much all-in ?) b) When Zerg takes 4th, toss takes 3th right away to catch up economically ? (but at that time Toss still lacks map control since he has only Zealots while zerg can build a ton of hydras + muta) c) ???
Thanks
Are you asking about the recent trend of getting 6th hatch at 4th before evo/den or just a zerg who takes a quick 4th after setting up simcity? I'll assume the former for now. A) Yes that's a good method of winning vs this kind of build. Make sure to hit the timing where the zerg won't have cracklings/defiler (like right before hive finishes) B) if you scout it you can take a quick 3rd and prepare cannons with high temp to ward off any attack. you should be easily able to get your 3rd up with no problem if you scout it early enough. he won't have enough production to attack. and no, protoss does have map control at that time with speedlots. c) you can also go for a harass oriented build as the zerg will have a hard time initially warding off harass from 4 different locations until zerg gets enough units. if you do enough eco damage you will be able to stop him from getting an econ advantage. you can either go for a 2gate bust after harassing or harass while getting your 3rd up. you will be either very ahead or win the game if your harass is successful. if not, you are going to be very behind and zerg will be spitting out units like it's nothing compared to your puny army due to spending units on harass.
On September 05 2011 11:07 therockmanxx wrote: What was the standard Toss opening before Forge Expand become popular?
1gate tech or 2gate
@guy above me, is that a serious question? of course you're just being unlucky lol.
On August 31 2011 18:18 Hershey wrote: I never followed the Brood War scene, but played a lot. Was / is the Dark Archon's ability mind control used very often in Professional Starcraft? If so why/why not.
used occasionally, but not often as others have said very expensive.
If you want to see a pro game with a ridiculous amount of mind-control. we're talking mind controlling the neutral critters running round the map for a laugh then watch this:
How can you mention mind control without talking about the greatest PvZ ever played.
Last edit: 2011-09-07 13:26:04
I cheer for underdogs and Flash
Release United States. September 07 2011 15:33. Posts 3973
In ZvP ultra builds, is the +2 carapace or the movespeed upgraded first? Also, how many cracklings can effectively deal with 4 cannons and 12 probes (say at a recently taken 3rd)? Has there ever been a game where a zerg player upgraded zergling speed and adrenal glands at the same time (you know, from two spawning pools)?
Last edit: 2011-09-07 15:35:43
☺
xxpack09 United States. September 07 2011 16:28. Posts 1798
On September 07 2011 15:33 Release wrote: In ZvP ultra builds, is the +2 carapace or the movespeed upgraded first? Also, how many cracklings can effectively deal with 4 cannons and 12 probes (say at a recently taken 3rd)? Has there ever been a game where a zerg player upgraded zergling speed and adrenal glands at the same time (you know, from two spawning pools)?
I'm pretty sure +2 carapace is upgraded first, just like in ZvT.
Although, many ultra builds don't build a single ultralisk until both ultra upgrades are finished, in order to maximize the efficiency of the zerg's gas usage.
I doubt double spawning pool has ever been used, but I could be wrong.
The question on cracklings... what are you trying to do here? If you've already taken down the 3rd, the cracklings have served their purpose and it doesn't matter too much if they fight and die. Of course though, the more probe kills you can get, the better!
JMave Singapore. September 07 2011 18:58. Posts 1754
On September 07 2011 15:33 Release wrote: In ZvP ultra builds, is the +2 carapace or the movespeed upgraded first? Also, how many cracklings can effectively deal with 4 cannons and 12 probes (say at a recently taken 3rd)? Has there ever been a game where a zerg player upgraded zergling speed and adrenal glands at the same time (you know, from two spawning pools)?
+2 is carapace is usually researched first. but you usually don't attack until your speed is done unless it is an urgent situation and you need them, that's when getting cara first really shines.
If you are talking about an undefended third, usually it would be safe to send 2 groups or so.
I doubt. Usually, ling speed is obtained well before hive tech in any match up.
火心 Jealous. I always loved that feeling when I was young. Embrace it.
Store
