On May 16 2011 14:54 Release wrote: So obviously clumped lurkers actually do take damage under swarm.
Ok then, if dark swarm moves the projectile one unit away from the target, then y don't marine, dragoons, etc also do damage to lurkers?
Because the tank's siege attack is categorized as splash. If two units are burrowed on top of each other, a tank's siege attack will damage them equally. The same for an archon's attack against grouped mutalisks, or an archon or reaver attacking a friendly zealot overtop a burrowed lurker. Therefore, even a miss generated by attacking something under dark swarm will be counted as a direct hit if there is a unit underneath the shifted attack sprite incidentally. Marine and dragoon shots are not splash and are just categorized as misses.
To explain "splash attack," tanks do their full damage in a 10 pixel radius, and not only to the primary target if there are other units within that radius. They deal 50% radial splash damage in a 25 pixel radius. That is, units farther from the direct attack will take half damage, which is affected by the tank's upgrades. They also have 25% splash damage in a 40 pixel radius.
When we say that burrowed units are immune to "splash damage," we mean they are immune to the 50% and 25% radial splash damage, whether it be from the tank, archon, reaver scarab, or nuke. You'll see this sometimes when a Protoss is trying to do the archon and zealot over a lurker trick. If the zealot is misplaced enough, the lurker will take no damage.
To reiterate, burrowed units are immune to radial splash damage. They will either take the primary damage or none. How that relates to dark swarm has already been explained.
On May 16 2011 14:54 Release wrote: So obviously clumped lurkers actually do take damage under swarm.
Ok then, if dark swarm moves the projectile one unit away from the target, then y don't marine, dragoons, etc also do damage to lurkers?
Because the tank's siege attack is categorized as splash. If two units are burrowed on top of each other, a tank's siege attack will damage them equally. The same for an archon's attack against grouped mutalisks, or an archon or reaver attacking a friendly zealot overtop a burrowed lurker. Therefore, even a miss generated by attacking something under dark swarm will be counted as a direct hit if there is a unit underneath the shifted attack sprite incidentally. Marine and dragoon shots are not splash and are just categorized as misses.
To explain "splash attack," tanks do their full damage in a 10 pixel radius, and not only to the primary target if there are other units within that radius. They deal 50% radial splash damage in a 25 pixel radius. That is, units farther from the direct attack will take half damage, which is affected by the tank's upgrades. They also have 25% splash damage in a 40 pixel radius.
When we say that burrowed units are immune to "splash damage," we mean they are immune to the 50% and 25% radial splash damage, whether it be from the tank, archon, reaver scarab, or nuke. You'll see this sometimes when a Protoss is trying to do the archon and zealot over a lurker trick. If the zealot is misplaced enough, the lurker will take no damage.
To reiterate, burrowed units are immune to radial splash damage. They will either take the primary damage or none. How that relates to dark swarm has already been explained.
So splash attacks always generate a projectile while "normal" attacks just miss?
It's more that a splash attack's projectile has the property of being able to damage units other than the intended target, depending on where the attack sprite lands. Other projectiles do not have that property and can only miss its intended target.
If I parasite a marine, and the marine is picked up in a dropship, do I get the dropship's vision, the marine's vision range (from the center of the dropship), or neither?
If I irradiate an ultralisk, and they load the ultra and 4 zerglings in an overlord, the ultralisk continues to take damage, correct? If it dies, is there a corpse? While it's irradiated and loaded, will the overlord or zerglings take damage as well?
ㅋㄲㅈㅁ
Bwenjarin Raffrack United States. May 17 2011 03:20. Posts 300
On May 17 2011 02:55 PUPATREE wrote: If I parasite a marine, and the marine is picked up in a dropship, do I get the dropship's vision, the marine's vision range (from the center of the dropship), or neither?
You will lose vision when a parasited unit is loaded into a transport or a bunker.
If I irradiate an ultralisk, and they load the ultra and 4 zerglings in an overlord, the ultralisk continues to take damage, correct? If it dies, is there a corpse? While it's irradiated and loaded, will the overlord or zerglings take damage as well?
If an irradiated unit is loaded into a transport or bunker, it will continue to take damage as well as damage all other biological units within that transport or bunker. Irradiated units picked up by an overlord will not damage the overlord, and an irradiated overlord does not damage the units it carries (unless it dies, of course).
I'm not as thunk as dreople pink I am.
Release United States. May 17 2011 15:05. Posts 3982
On May 16 2011 14:54 Release wrote: So obviously clumped lurkers actually do take damage under swarm.
Ok then, if dark swarm moves the projectile one unit away from the target, then y don't marine, dragoons, etc also do damage to lurkers?
Because the tank's siege attack is categorized as splash. If two units are burrowed on top of each other, a tank's siege attack will damage them equally. The same for an archon's attack against grouped mutalisks, or an archon or reaver attacking a friendly zealot overtop a burrowed lurker. Therefore, even a miss generated by attacking something under dark swarm will be counted as a direct hit if there is a unit underneath the shifted attack sprite incidentally. Marine and dragoon shots are not splash and are just categorized as misses.
To explain "splash attack," tanks do their full damage in a 10 pixel radius, and not only to the primary target if there are other units within that radius. They deal 50% radial splash damage in a 25 pixel radius. That is, units farther from the direct attack will take half damage, which is affected by the tank's upgrades. They also have 25% splash damage in a 40 pixel radius.
When we say that burrowed units are immune to "splash damage," we mean they are immune to the 50% and 25% radial splash damage, whether it be from the tank, archon, reaver scarab, or nuke. You'll see this sometimes when a Protoss is trying to do the archon and zealot over a lurker trick. If the zealot is misplaced enough, the lurker will take no damage.
To reiterate, burrowed units are immune to radial splash damage. They will either take the primary damage or none. How that relates to dark swarm has already been explained.
So splash attacks always generate a projectile while "normal" attacks just miss?
Release look at all the pretty pictures on page 2. It explains it clear as fuck. Stop mucking up the thread with stupid crap.
Splash damage will hit units around the target Lurker but not the actual lurker itself. If there was a zergling on top of a lurker and it hit the zergling the lurker would take 5 dmg from splash.
All ranged attacks without splash are negated underswarm with the sole exception of a scarab as that lands melee.
Splash attacks generate their own splash zone as always. "Normal" attacks are divided into a buncha diff categories to ensure balance (ex: dragoon volley is categorized as "explosive" and explosive damage is reduced by 50% vs small units). This is why it takes 4 goon volley's to kill a 0-0 marine when they only have 40 hp and a dragoon shot does 20 damage.
Last edit: 2011-05-18 03:21:00
Nak Allstar.
Release United States. May 18 2011 14:07. Posts 3982
These days, when I play ZvT, the T always looks to immediately block my natural with either an ebay or a supply depot. My natural is always extremely late due to the fact that I have to wait for lings, and I am obviously far behind at that point.
Since I can't kill the depot/ebay immediately without pulling a lot of drones, what is the proper response to this tactic? Should I do the typical ZvP response of placing my second hatch at my third base? My short term solution has been to simply build the 2nd hatch in my main, but I'm not sure if this is the right response.
This question pertains to 12hat builds only; I realize that 9pool will counter this crap rather easily.
Thanks!
Bwenjarin Raffrack United States. May 19 2011 08:38. Posts 300
On May 18 2011 14:07 Release wrote: Why do some scarabs "dud" while other hit?
While the reaver is ideologically a ranged unit, the scarab itself is considered a melee unit in practice, which allows it to do damage under dark swarm. As lyAsakura said, if it cannot reach the intended target because of its pathing, whether by multiple workers stacked together running away or well-placed buildings blocking it, the scarab will time out and dud. In some cases, though, the Protoss can dud the scarab intentionally by pressing stop on the reaver. For example, if he believes the fired scarab will dud eventually and wants to shorten the cooldown on the reaver's next attack.
On May 18 2011 23:42 HaFnium wrote: Are there any specific angles that cause reavers to watch straight to the enemy unit rather than attacking it?
I may try to test it when i have time.
It is believed so. For example, a reaver at certain angles won't fire at a sunken colony but will instead walk into its range inexplicably. Better players learn to avoid those angles with experience. It may help to pick the reaver back up and drop it again.
On May 18 2011 18:13 corumjhaelen wrote: When should I take my first gas in ZvP in case of forge fast expand ? And if he blocks one of my hatchery ?
This question is somewhat vague because it depends entirely on what opening you've done and what build you intend to go. For information on that, check Liquipedia and pro VODs.
On May 19 2011 06:27 j2choe wrote: These days, when I play ZvT, the T always looks to immediately block my natural with either an ebay or a supply depot. My natural is always extremely late due to the fact that I have to wait for lings, and I am obviously far behind at that point.
Since I can't kill the depot/ebay immediately without pulling a lot of drones, what is the proper response to this tactic? Should I do the typical ZvP response of placing my second hatch at my third base? My short term solution has been to simply build the 2nd hatch in my main, but I'm not sure if this is the right response.
This question pertains to 12hat builds only; I realize that 9pool will counter this crap rather easily.
Thanks!
Watch the following game for EffOrt's reaction and listen to the Liquipedia QnA Episode 1. Chill, Day[9], Artosis, Idra, and Ver discuss the engineering bay block at length as well as other topics and games.
For example, taking a third base instead of your natural is extremely dangerous because it leaves your main exposed if Terran follows up with vultures, as Flash does in the game.
Last edit: 2011-05-19 08:43:20
I'm not as thunk as dreople pink I am.
Astrapto United States. May 19 2011 13:23. Posts 64
On May 23 2011 11:15 Chriscras wrote: What is the optimal number of mining probes in BW?
Tyler couldn't remember on TL attack this weekend.
Do you mean overall, into the very late game? I've heard some pretty skilled people (I don't remember who) say that 80 workers is a good number to aim for. Preferably, you'd have them spread across about 4 mining bases (for Terran and Protoss) or more (for Zerg).
On May 19 2011 08:38 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote: Watch the following game for EffOrt's reaction and listen to the Liquipedia QnA Episode 1. Chill, Day[9], Artosis, Idra, and Ver discuss the engineering bay block at length as well as other topics and games.
For example, taking a third base instead of your natural is extremely dangerous because it leaves your main exposed if Terran follows up with vultures, as Flash does in the game.
Thanks very much for the references. The Liquipedia discussion, however, tends to focus more on why the ebay block is good from a Terran perspective, and there wasn't much said about proper responses for zerg. That being said, I think the vod of Effort was very helpful: So basically, you make your second hatch at the natural, but not at the normal spot? While I am discerning this from the vod, it appears that you lay the second hatch in this way in order to get the creep necessary to get sunkens up if vultures happen to arrive. This makes a lot of sense and I will adopt this strat in the future. Thanks again for the help!
Bwenjarin Raffrack United States. May 23 2011 23:13. Posts 300
On May 19 2011 08:38 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote: Watch the following game for EffOrt's reaction and listen to the Liquipedia QnA Episode 1. Chill, Day[9], Artosis, Idra, and Ver discuss the engineering bay block at length as well as other topics and games.
For example, taking a third base instead of your natural is extremely dangerous because it leaves your main exposed if Terran follows up with vultures, as Flash does in the game.
Thanks very much for the references. The Liquipedia discussion, however, tends to focus more on why the ebay block is good from a Terran perspective, and there wasn't much said about proper responses for zerg. That being said, I think the vod of Effort was very helpful: So basically, you make your second hatch at the natural, but not at the normal spot? While I am discerning this from the vod, it appears that you lay the second hatch in this way in order to get the creep necessary to get sunkens up if vultures happen to arrive. This makes a lot of sense and I will adopt this strat in the future. Thanks again for the help!
No problem. Close study should really help you out. Things to note would be his gas collection, zergling count, building placement, the timing he forces the cancel, overlord sacrifice, and defensive troop placement. Importantly, EffOrt scouted somewhat late for a two-player map and Flash was able to build the e-bay to ~700hp which limited EffOrt's options to 12pooling. If you drone scout at 9 and intercept the SCV, for example, you can pull another drone to attack the SCV and limit the e-bay's hit points. After the SCV is evicted you can pull a few more drones to cancel the e-bay and place the hatchery.
Also, if you're on a map where 2 hatch builds may be somewhat preferable to 3 hatch, you can force the cancel directly as Jaedong does below. However, go.go was able to go CC first after canceling because of that.
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Liquipedia QnA Episode 1
Chriscras Korea (South). May 23 2011 11:15. Posts 2738
