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| Puyi United States. November 25 2011 01:21. Posts 161 | Profile # |
| how do prevent a arbitor recall in late game tvp? usually i have a 3/3 maxed army that beats my opponent in a straight fight but its hard to clean up a recall when he has multiple arbitors flying around without taking huge damage to my supply depots or economy. i try to get 2-3 vessels to constantly emp arbitors i see but its impossible to keep track of them all. |
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| randomKo_Orean Korea (South). November 25 2011 01:42. Posts 3552 | Profile Blog # |
On November 25 2011 01:21 Puyi wrote:
how do prevent a arbitor recall in late game tvp? usually i have a 3/3 maxed army that beats my opponent in a straight fight but its hard to clean up a recall when he has multiple arbitors flying around without taking huge damage to my supply depots or economy. i try to get 2-3 vessels to constantly emp arbitors i see but its impossible to keep track of them all.
It's only impossible if you don't have *excellent* mapawareness.
what helps, in rather unconventional way, is having a ghost at each base.
what's more conventional is putting shit loads of turrets and mines all over the base. |
| | BioBalls, Thors, Void Rays, Collusus, Banelings, Queens - they can all lick my balls. BW4EVER |
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| Puyi United States. November 25 2011 01:46. Posts 161 | Profile # |
| lol ghosts, didnt think of that. i might try that. also a question on turrets; how many turrets do u need to kill a arbitor b4 the recall completes? i usually have turrets at key positions to prevent shuttle harrass but always 4get to add more in the late game. |
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| jello_biafra United Kingdom. November 25 2011 07:10. Posts 5812 | Profile Blog # |
On November 25 2011 01:46 Puyi wrote:
lol ghosts, didnt think of that. i might try that. also a question on turrets; how many turrets do u need to kill a arbitor b4 the recall completes? i usually have turrets at key positions to prevent shuttle harrass but always 4get to add more in the late game.
There's no real set number, you're rarely going to be able to kill the arbiter before it gets its recall in with turrets alone, their main job is to make sure it dies very soon after it recalls units in while making sure they have to recall as early as possible which means they may not have space to recall all the units in that they wanted and can't recall the exact place they wanted. Surround them with mines to damage the units that come in, have a few strategic tanks placed to bombard them too and build random depots around the place as a kind of barrier they have to get past/funnel through to reach your tanks.
The main thing though is watching the map like a hawk at all times and EMP'ing those fuckers before they can come in and do the damage. |
| | "I found the Crown of France lying in the gutter and I picked it up with my sword" - Napoleon Bonaparte |
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| therockmanxx Peru. November 25 2011 23:25. Posts 1093 | Profile # |
Be prepared against a recall attack is another skill you might wanna practice alot
There !! now you have something very interesting to do !! =) |
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| Retgery Canada. November 26 2011 00:54. Posts 1165 | Profile # |
| What's a good adaptation for when a Z steals my main gas in PvZ, me as P. Should i just throw up some more gateways and try to pressure, or just get more cannons and tech up slowly. If you could recommend a minimal gas all-in strat that would be good to. What is the main benefit of doing a Jangbi style gateway fist build in PvZ? Last edit: 2011-11-26 03:01:07 |
| | "Do you have enemies? If so good, that means you once stood for something." |
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| don_kyuhote November 26 2011 01:26. Posts 1870 | Profile Blog # |
On November 25 2011 23:25 therockmanxx wrote:
Be prepared against a recall attack is another skill you might wanna practice alot
There !! now you have something very interesting to do !! =)
defending recalls = useful talent toi have  |
| | Maranatha~~~~~~~// what we do in life echoes in eternity | |
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| Phyrigian New Zealand. November 26 2011 03:30. Posts 1295 | Profile Blog # |
On November 26 2011 00:54 Retgery wrote:
What's a good adaptation for when a Z steals my main gas in PvZ, me as P. Should i just throw up some more gateways and try to pressure, or just get more cannons and tech up slowly. If you could recommend a minimal gas all-in strat that would be good to. What is the main benefit of doing a Jangbi style gateway fist build in PvZ?
after forge fe if your nexus is still up fast enough you can still take that in time with a zealot to probably kill the gas in time. I'm not a protoss expert, but if that's not possible the most common transition would be to do a more traditional citadel/gateway speedzeal push with no stargate. |
| | Play Quake Live @ quakelive.com for free! Become part of the community and play the esport that started it all in the west! |
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| Dead9 United States. November 26 2011 12:34. Posts 2323 | Profile Blog # |
| if you forge fe you can just take your nat gas |
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| XsebT Denmark. November 28 2011 17:41. Posts 2831 | Profile Blog # |
On November 26 2011 00:54 Retgery wrote:
What's a good adaptation for when a Z steals my main gas in PvZ, me as P. Should i just throw up some more gateways and try to pressure, or just get more cannons and tech up slowly. If you could recommend a minimal gas all-in strat that would be good to. What is the main benefit of doing a Jangbi style gateway fist build in PvZ?
You shouldn't worry too much about ZvP gas steals. As already said, you can just take your nat gas without much delay - However, there will be a delay! I've only had gas steals happen to me by low level players. The reason for that, I feel is that it's made for catching other low level players off guard afterwards. It can make you get nervous or in other ways 'throw you off your game'. But what you should really worry about is how the zerg follows it up.
I've had zergs do this to me with the sole purpose of pulling my initial zealot away from my wall (to kill gas), so he could run by with lings or even all-in with them. So if he got speedlings and was able to deny scouting, keep probes at your wall while you kill the stolen gas asap.
The other thing I feel you should take into account when it happens (though I havn't actually had this happen to me, so please correct me) is fast mutas.
Fast overview of build timing as to why I think this:
Start gas mining the moment you start your core.
Make zealot as soon as you get 100 spare minerals after your core.
Make 2nd gas when core is 50% complete. <- this is where you're really delayed because of the gas steal!
So unless you kill off the stolen gas with probes to keep up on gas, you're gonna have less gas - there's just no way around it. That means any sort of bisu-esque tech followup to the FE is gonna have a delay - and in the case of mutas, your sair production is what you should worry about. You can have continuous sair production, but then your other tech is delayed. My response would therefore be to rely more (though not at all entirely) on cannons in the case of mutas.
Followup question:
Should I really use probes to kill a stolen gas - assuming my mid-game plan is tech/gas-heavy? |
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| Golgotha Korea (South). November 29 2011 17:16. Posts 6375 | Profile Blog # |
just got my first two wins in Brood War, (sc2 player here) woo hoo!!!!!!!
But I have a question. Most people I face seem to love contains. Like uber contain. Mass cannon in my front or mass turret, tank, and mines. What do I do to counter this kind of play? Like what should my reaction be when I see mass cannon in my front? Or mass vulture mines and tank support? I am very terrible at this game but I managed to get my 2nd win by going guardians against a bunker, mine, and tank crazy terran who just blocked my front. I just want a long macro game but these kids love to hole me up. Thanks guys! |
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| Monsyphon Canada. November 29 2011 17:46. Posts 178 | Profile Blog # |
i wish to learn more about the ways of brood war, and i want to know a few simple things
What is the optimal saturation for one mining base? I assume it's 3 workers on gas and 2 per mineral patch
Where's the best place to find games online? Is there something like SC2 laddering in BW servers? |
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| Dead9 United States. November 29 2011 20:33. Posts 2323 | Profile Blog # |
On November 29 2011 17:16 Golgotha wrote:
just got my first two wins in Brood War, (sc2 player here) woo hoo!!!!!!!
But I have a question. Most people I face seem to love contains. Like uber contain. Mass cannon in my front or mass turret, tank, and mines. What do I do to counter this kind of play? Like what should my reaction be when I see mass cannon in my front? Or mass vulture mines and tank support? I am very terrible at this game but I managed to get my 2nd win by going guardians against a bunker, mine, and tank crazy terran who just blocked my front. I just want a long macro game but these kids love to hole me up. Thanks guys!
the best way to defend against a contain is to never let it happen
if you're Z make sure your initial few zerglings are outside their nat so they can't just walk over and set up a contain
speedlings rip through everything (except like firebats) early game if you get a decent surround off
it really how far into the game it is and how they're trying to contain you though
On November 29 2011 17:46 Monsyphon wrote:
i wish to learn more about the ways of brood war, and i want to know a few simple things
What is the optimal saturation for one mining base? I assume it's 3 workers on gas and 2 per mineral patch
Where's the best place to find games online? Is there something like SC2 laddering in BW servers?
approximately 3 workers per gas and 2.5 workers per mineral
but generally you just want to be pumping scvs/probes constantly, and zerg should pretty much never reach saturation
iccup.com is the best place to find games if you don't speak korean |
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| therockmanxx Peru. November 29 2011 23:58. Posts 1093 | Profile # |
| How do I survive in a ZvP against a toss deathball O.o |
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| Vuk_91 Serbia. November 30 2011 00:30. Posts 1440 | Profile # |
On November 29 2011 23:58 therockmanxx wrote:
How do I survive in a ZvP against a toss deathball O.o
That`s the thing we would all like to know :D |
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| upperbound United States. November 30 2011 00:48. Posts 484 | Profile # |
| What's the best PvT early game composition to combat 2 fact? I've been f**king up a lot against this build lately, either just getting pushed back as I patrol micro my goons and having vultures lay mines behind me, or getting wrecked in a straight up fight. I usually open 1 gate goon with early range into 2 gate robo, but holding off the initial aggression just seems so hard without probe pulls. Last edit: 2011-11-30 00:49:04 |
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| t0ssboy Bulgaria. November 30 2011 02:26. Posts 364 | Profile # |
2 or 3 gate
User was warned for this post |
| | Courage is doing what you are afraid to do.There can be no courage if there is no fear. |
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| XsebT Denmark. November 30 2011 03:30. Posts 2831 | Profile Blog # |
On November 30 2011 00:48 upperbound wrote:
What's the best PvT early game composition to combat 2 fact? I've been f**king up a lot against this build lately, either just getting pushed back as I patrol micro my goons and having vultures lay mines behind me, or getting wrecked in a straight up fight. I usually open 1 gate goon with early range into 2 gate robo, but holding off the initial aggression just seems so hard without probe pulls.
A few notes first:
You don't patrol micro goons! You hold position micro and target fire!
You say you open "1gate goon" and follow up with 2 gate robo. It does make sense, but 1gate goon and 2gate robo are two seperate builds in bw lengua. What it sounds like you're doing as an opening is just called "2gate robo". Just to avoid further confusion. The 1gate goon focuses on an early expo with minimal units to defend, while the 2gate robo is economically disadvantageous against something like a rax FE, but is actually perfect to hold strong FDs and 2facts.
Now, I've already started answering your question a bit by saying that 2gate robo is perfect against 2fact. So since you somehow lose anyway it must come done to you either doing the build wrong or miscontrolling your units. The latter seems most reasonable to me, so that's what I'll assume since you didn't post a replay.
With a 2gate robo, you must be offensive. Wait for the terran to push out with... something. If the terran has rax FE'd you can apply heavy pressure to the bunker, but that's really it (don't try runbys or silly stuff like that unless you're absolutely certain you will be successful). I know you actually asked about composition, but I wanted to just clear the fact that you need to be offensive with a 2gate robo! But when you see the push come out, don't just run away! The 2fact push is generally stronger straight up against your goons, but you're not gonna engage it straight up! You need to slowly micro while retracting to your base (avoid mines). Pick off anything you can get to make the push as weak as possible - especially vultures and tanks of course!
What you should generally do back in your base as soon as you see the 2fact is: add gates depending on how pressured you are, build a shuttle.
When the push is finally at your front door, what you have to do is very hard to explain because there are so many possible ways a terran push can be setup, but here are some tips:
1. Calm down! Panic in this situation and you're dead.
2. Get goon out of siege range with your goons, while still maintaining a sort of concave so the vultures don't fuck them up.
3. You now rely on zealots and zealot+shuttle to break apart the contain. You can send the zealots forward to clear mines or even do a few mine drags if the terran overextends himself.
4. Wait until the last possible second to push out, but make sure to send your army in a controlled fashion: zealots first, shuttle-zealots on the tanks furthest away/furthest away from vultures.
Yeah, that's at least how I do it. |
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| mtwow789 November 30 2011 03:43. Posts 67 | Profile # |
For z's gas steal..
It really screws you up your intended build order, so try to prevent it asap as you see the drone coming from your nat.
When I see a drone coming up a ramp, I have hot key one of probe. If that drone is coming towards my gas, I press my hot key and right click gas and immediately build it.
If however, if z stole gas way early, even before second nexus, I just leave it with one probe attacking it. I tried not to get interfered, as it really screws you on your mid game. I tend to do +1 speed zeal or get fast dt, and they don’t work if I can’t mine gas early. However, if gas is stolen,watch out for mutals. They are easily defended with good positioned cannons. You just have to forfeit other gas units and get corsairs.
About two fac terrans, 12 nexus is a direct counter. By the time Terran pushes with 1 tank + few marines and 1 vulture, I already have 2~3 goons waiting at their entrance. I attack vults first. It is natural as vults tends to lead the group. With few micros here and there, it is easy to deflect. Just remember to constantly make goons. If he does strong FD (2 tanks and lots of scv+marines +vults), make 1 or 2 batteries near your natural. If you successfully deflected, it’s an auto win.
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| upperbound United States. November 30 2011 03:48. Posts 484 | Profile # |
On November 30 2011 03:30 XsebT wrote:
Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 00:48 upperbound wrote:
What's the best PvT early game composition to combat 2 fact? I've been f**king up a lot against this build lately, either just getting pushed back as I patrol micro my goons and having vultures lay mines behind me, or getting wrecked in a straight up fight. I usually open 1 gate goon with early range into 2 gate robo, but holding off the initial aggression just seems so hard without probe pulls.
A few notes first: You don't patrol micro goons! You hold position micro and target fire! You say you open "1gate goon" and follow up with 2 gate robo. It does make sense, but 1gate goon and 2gate robo are two seperate builds in bw lengua. What it sounds like you're doing as an opening is just called "2gate robo". Just to avoid further confusion. The 1gate goon focuses on an early expo with minimal units to defend, while the 2gate robo is economically disadvantageous against something like a rax FE, but is actually perfect to hold strong FDs and 2facts. Now, I've already started answering your question a bit by saying that 2gate robo is perfect against 2fact. So since you somehow lose anyway it must come done to you either doing the build wrong or miscontrolling your units. The latter seems most reasonable to me, so that's what I'll assume since you didn't post a replay. With a 2gate robo, you must be offensive. Wait for the terran to push out with... something. If the terran has rax FE'd you can apply heavy pressure to the bunker, but that's really it (don't try runbys or silly stuff like that unless you're absolutely certain you will be successful). I know you actually asked about composition, but I wanted to just clear the fact that you need to be offensive with a 2gate robo! But when you see the push come out, don't just run away! The 2fact push is generally stronger straight up against your goons, but you're not gonna engage it straight up! You need to slowly micro while retracting to your base (avoid mines). Pick off anything you can get to make the push as weak as possible - especially vultures and tanks of course! What you should generally do back in your base as soon as you see the 2fact is: add gates depending on how pressured you are, build a shuttle. When the push is finally at your front door, what you have to do is very hard to explain because there are so many possible ways a terran push can be setup, but here are some tips: 1. Calm down! Panic in this situation and you're dead. 2. Get goon out of siege range with your goons, while still maintaining a sort of concave so the vultures don't fuck them up. 3. You now rely on zealots and zealot+shuttle to break apart the contain. You can send the zealots forward to clear mines or even do a few mine drags if the terran overextends himself. 4. Wait until the last possible second to push out, but make sure to send your army in a controlled fashion: zealots first, shuttle-zealots on the tanks furthest away/furthest away from vultures. Yeah, that's at least how I do it.
Sorry, I should have been more specific -- I do 1 gate goon --> expo, then add a 2nd gate and robo after expo with more gates as income allows, and legspeed + templar tech if i don't die to 2fact or fake double. Due to walls, I have a tough time determining whether or not I can safely expo, and I was wondering once the expansion goes up what the correct reaction to 2fact is. Is 1 gate goon fe just too greedy against 2fact? Do I need to transition into, say, quick 3 or 4 gate when I see the pushout and delay with my goons?
It's possible I just need to micro goons better, but wasn't sure if this was the best use of my time at the D/D+ level. I also wasn't sure if posting a replay was appropriate in Simple Q/Simple A thread. |
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