On February 26 2012 06:54 TheGlassface wrote: In PvT when the T is camped in your natural and effectively setting up a contain, what is the best answer?
I'm talking when you've been scouting, you have a probe out in the nat or just shy outside and that first push comes to you. Usually I have about 2-3 goons, and a zealot and two goons in production when I see a Tank, a vulture, 4-6 marines and 2 or 3 SCVs coming. I stall for time as well as I can, but then I've got a sieged tank, a bunker and turret going down and mines.
Now, assuming I could tone my build up and play better...what is the correct response to this contain? I'd also be interested in the Zerg's response to a tank shelling your nat very quickly in the game supported by a small contingent of MM
Ok first if you encounter an FD, its always good to add the second gate at 20 or get a robo rather than a nexus. It is more important to hold the FD than to get an expo because you can potentially deal a lot of damage if he fails his push. You must reduce as much damage your goons take by getting our of tank range and sniping off marines. What I usually do is to position the goons just before the ramp such that his units will travel in a line down, allowing you to snipe a marine or two.
Meanwhile, it is important that your robo timing is good if you went for two gate and you are constantly making goons. 6 marines, a vulture and a tank with SCVs is really easy to hold off with 3 goons so I see no reason why you should be dying to something like this. A strong fd with two tanks will usually be late enough for you to get 4-5 goons with second gate and an observer almost arriving when he comes out.
edit: forgot to mention that your goons need to be positioned at the choke while your observer goes in to count factories. if you stopped his fd push, then there is no reason why you should get contained that early in the game.
This advice is a bit confusing because you won't always know it's a FD or not and if you make that 2nd gate the moment you spot the FD moving out it's too late anyway. With good micro(hold micro and sniping mines) you don't need to get a 2nd gate to deal with normal FD.
Normally off a 1 gate expand(nexus after 3 goons) you should have 3 goons and a 4th one almost coming out when the FD pushes. 4 goons is more than enough to deal with that one tank one vulture 4-6 marine 2-3 scvs composition. Position your goons in a line and just keep using hold micro to range the marines and not take shots. If you see their tank out of position as in it's too far ahead of the other marine then try to hit it a few times. A tank take 8 shots to kill, vulture 6 shots and marine 4 shots.
If you can, provide a replay so we can clearly see what you and your opponent is doing.
Edit: I suggest you watch this to get an idea of what you're meant to do.
Jangbi does a 1 gate expand against FD.
Last edit: 2012-02-27 19:10:50
t.t
JMave Singapore. February 27 2012 23:01. Posts 1754
On February 26 2012 06:54 TheGlassface wrote: In PvT when the T is camped in your natural and effectively setting up a contain, what is the best answer?
I'm talking when you've been scouting, you have a probe out in the nat or just shy outside and that first push comes to you. Usually I have about 2-3 goons, and a zealot and two goons in production when I see a Tank, a vulture, 4-6 marines and 2 or 3 SCVs coming. I stall for time as well as I can, but then I've got a sieged tank, a bunker and turret going down and mines.
Now, assuming I could tone my build up and play better...what is the correct response to this contain? I'd also be interested in the Zerg's response to a tank shelling your nat very quickly in the game supported by a small contingent of MM
Ok first if you encounter an FD, its always good to add the second gate at 20 or get a robo rather than a nexus. It is more important to hold the FD than to get an expo because you can potentially deal a lot of damage if he fails his push. You must reduce as much damage your goons take by getting our of tank range and sniping off marines. What I usually do is to position the goons just before the ramp such that his units will travel in a line down, allowing you to snipe a marine or two.
Meanwhile, it is important that your robo timing is good if you went for two gate and you are constantly making goons. 6 marines, a vulture and a tank with SCVs is really easy to hold off with 3 goons so I see no reason why you should be dying to something like this. A strong fd with two tanks will usually be late enough for you to get 4-5 goons with second gate and an observer almost arriving when he comes out.
edit: forgot to mention that your goons need to be positioned at the choke while your observer goes in to count factories. if you stopped his fd push, then there is no reason why you should get contained that early in the game.
This advice is a bit confusing because you won't always know it's a FD or not and if you make that 2nd gate the moment you spot the FD moving out it's too late anyway. With good micro(hold micro and sniping mines) you don't need to get a 2nd gate to deal with normal FD.
Normally off a 1 gate expand(nexus after 3 goons) you should have 3 goons and a 4th one almost coming out when the FD pushes. 4 goons is more than enough to deal with that one tank one vulture 4-6 marine 2-3 scvs composition. Position your goons in a line and just keep using hold micro to range the marines and not take shots. If you see their tank out of position as in it's too far ahead of the other marine then try to hit it a few times. A tank take 8 shots to kill, vulture 6 shots and marine 4 shots.
If you can, provide a replay so we can clearly see what you and your opponent is doing.
Edit: I suggest you watch this to get an idea of what you're meant to do.
Jangbi does a 1 gate expand against FD.
20 gate gets an extra dragoon for fd push. and you should know its an fd push by marine count either way.
that jangbi game.. i mean if you are capable of replicating such control, then by all means go for 1 gate fe. get the extra gate if in his case, is not confident in holding off the attack.
火心 Jealous. I always loved that feeling when I was young. Embrace it.
On February 26 2012 06:54 TheGlassface wrote: In PvT when the T is camped in your natural and effectively setting up a contain, what is the best answer?
I'm talking when you've been scouting, you have a probe out in the nat or just shy outside and that first push comes to you. Usually I have about 2-3 goons, and a zealot and two goons in production when I see a Tank, a vulture, 4-6 marines and 2 or 3 SCVs coming. I stall for time as well as I can, but then I've got a sieged tank, a bunker and turret going down and mines.
Now, assuming I could tone my build up and play better...what is the correct response to this contain? I'd also be interested in the Zerg's response to a tank shelling your nat very quickly in the game supported by a small contingent of MM
Ok first if you encounter an FD, its always good to add the second gate at 20 or get a robo rather than a nexus. It is more important to hold the FD than to get an expo because you can potentially deal a lot of damage if he fails his push. You must reduce as much damage your goons take by getting our of tank range and sniping off marines. What I usually do is to position the goons just before the ramp such that his units will travel in a line down, allowing you to snipe a marine or two.
Meanwhile, it is important that your robo timing is good if you went for two gate and you are constantly making goons. 6 marines, a vulture and a tank with SCVs is really easy to hold off with 3 goons so I see no reason why you should be dying to something like this. A strong fd with two tanks will usually be late enough for you to get 4-5 goons with second gate and an observer almost arriving when he comes out.
edit: forgot to mention that your goons need to be positioned at the choke while your observer goes in to count factories. if you stopped his fd push, then there is no reason why you should get contained that early in the game.
This advice is a bit confusing because you won't always know it's a FD or not and if you make that 2nd gate the moment you spot the FD moving out it's too late anyway. With good micro(hold micro and sniping mines) you don't need to get a 2nd gate to deal with normal FD.
Normally off a 1 gate expand(nexus after 3 goons) you should have 3 goons and a 4th one almost coming out when the FD pushes. 4 goons is more than enough to deal with that one tank one vulture 4-6 marine 2-3 scvs composition. Position your goons in a line and just keep using hold micro to range the marines and not take shots. If you see their tank out of position as in it's too far ahead of the other marine then try to hit it a few times. A tank take 8 shots to kill, vulture 6 shots and marine 4 shots.
If you can, provide a replay so we can clearly see what you and your opponent is doing.
Edit: I suggest you watch this to get an idea of what you're meant to do.
Jangbi does a 1 gate expand against FD.
20 gate gets an extra dragoon for fd push. and you should know its an fd push by marine count either way.
that jangbi game.. i mean if you are capable of replicating such control, then by all means go for 1 gate fe. get the extra gate if in his case, is not confident in holding off the attack.
At 20 supply you won't know if it's a FD or not since you only see 2 marines. I mean you can probably hint that it's going to be a FD if there's no wall or it won't be a FD if there's a wall but that's not really guaranteed. Suggesting he goes 2 gate expand until he gets more confident in his control is a good idea though.
Jangbi's control early in that game isn't hard to replicate, he was just moving back goons that were being targetted. He wasn't ranging the marines early on probably because he wasn't confident in his micro in a no lan latency game. It's also why he didn't try to defuse those mines without obs.
On February 26 2012 06:54 TheGlassface wrote: In PvT when the T is camped in your natural and effectively setting up a contain, what is the best answer?
I'm talking when you've been scouting, you have a probe out in the nat or just shy outside and that first push comes to you. Usually I have about 2-3 goons, and a zealot and two goons in production when I see a Tank, a vulture, 4-6 marines and 2 or 3 SCVs coming. I stall for time as well as I can, but then I've got a sieged tank, a bunker and turret going down and mines.
Now, assuming I could tone my build up and play better...what is the correct response to this contain? I'd also be interested in the Zerg's response to a tank shelling your nat very quickly in the game supported by a small contingent of MM
Ok first if you encounter an FD, its always good to add the second gate at 20 or get a robo rather than a nexus. It is more important to hold the FD than to get an expo because you can potentially deal a lot of damage if he fails his push. You must reduce as much damage your goons take by getting our of tank range and sniping off marines. What I usually do is to position the goons just before the ramp such that his units will travel in a line down, allowing you to snipe a marine or two.
Meanwhile, it is important that your robo timing is good if you went for two gate and you are constantly making goons. 6 marines, a vulture and a tank with SCVs is really easy to hold off with 3 goons so I see no reason why you should be dying to something like this. A strong fd with two tanks will usually be late enough for you to get 4-5 goons with second gate and an observer almost arriving when he comes out.
edit: forgot to mention that your goons need to be positioned at the choke while your observer goes in to count factories. if you stopped his fd push, then there is no reason why you should get contained that early in the game.
This advice is a bit confusing because you won't always know it's a FD or not and if you make that 2nd gate the moment you spot the FD moving out it's too late anyway. With good micro(hold micro and sniping mines) you don't need to get a 2nd gate to deal with normal FD.
Normally off a 1 gate expand(nexus after 3 goons) you should have 3 goons and a 4th one almost coming out when the FD pushes. 4 goons is more than enough to deal with that one tank one vulture 4-6 marine 2-3 scvs composition. Position your goons in a line and just keep using hold micro to range the marines and not take shots. If you see their tank out of position as in it's too far ahead of the other marine then try to hit it a few times. A tank take 8 shots to kill, vulture 6 shots and marine 4 shots.
If you can, provide a replay so we can clearly see what you and your opponent is doing.
Edit: I suggest you watch this to get an idea of what you're meant to do.
Jangbi does a 1 gate expand against FD.
20 gate gets an extra dragoon for fd push. and you should know its an fd push by marine count either way.
that jangbi game.. i mean if you are capable of replicating such control, then by all means go for 1 gate fe. get the extra gate if in his case, is not confident in holding off the attack.
At 20 supply you won't know if it's a FD or not since you only see 2 marines. I mean you can probably hint that it's going to be a FD if there's no wall or it won't be a FD if there's a wall but that's not really guaranteed. Suggesting he goes 2 gate expand until he gets more confident in his control is a good idea though.
Jangbi's control early in that game isn't hard to replicate, he was just moving back goons that were being targetted. He wasn't ranging the marines early on probably because he wasn't confident in his micro in a no lan latency game. It's also why he didn't try to defuse those mines without obs.
The very key point for defending FD is having your goons near terran's choke and delay opponent's push. For Fighting Spirit, spread out three goons near the bridge. Keep toggling those goons to check if push is indeed coming. Once marines and tanks are coming, use goons to shoot and fall back. If you practice enough you can shoot and move that matches the attacking delay of goons. Engaging them early is most important thing because you need to buy time to build goons. Select the goon that is getting focused fired and move it back. Best micro is to have all the goons evenly lose their shields only. Just take out all the marines. You don't need to focus fire tank. This is easy to do because marines move faster than tank so you can lure marines out of tank's range. If done properly, by the time you fall back to your own nat, opponent won't have enough units to contain you.
If opponent is doing strong FD or bringing 5+ scvs, make one or two batteries at the nat. You should have 2nd gate completed too.
And watch out for mines. Most terrans place mines near their choke for defending their natural. Sometimes they place mines on your choke. I lost one time when I lost my 3 retreating goons die to one mine.
Release United States. February 28 2012 16:48. Posts 3982
In PvT, what is the proper response to Terran’s one fac, one starport to fast 4 vult drop when I am on one gate expansion? I am having difficult time distinguishing it between 2fac push/FD or vulture first build. Sometimes oppoents have bunker set up in nat to fool me he has expanded while vultures are racking probe kills. It seems that my first obs is always too late to scout one star. When 4 vults drops on my main, my first obs is on its way to scout terran’s base. Should I spread my goons out on my main when I don’t see a push when I have 4~5 goons out?
JMave Singapore. February 29 2012 10:11. Posts 1754
On February 28 2012 16:48 Release wrote: How do i make ramps in staredit?
do you mean those custom ramps like linear and inverted ramps? if so, you should go to broodwarmaps to find some templates that people have already done for certain map types. i believe jungle terrain is the most established type of map with the most number of custom features out there.
火心 Jealous. I always loved that feeling when I was young. Embrace it.
JMave Singapore. February 29 2012 10:16. Posts 1754
On February 29 2012 01:47 mtwow789 wrote: In PvT, what is the proper response to Terran’s one fac, one starport to fast 4 vult drop when I am on one gate expansion? I am having difficult time distinguishing it between 2fac push/FD or vulture first build. Sometimes oppoents have bunker set up in nat to fool me he has expanded while vultures are racking probe kills. It seems that my first obs is always too late to scout one star. When 4 vults drops on my main, my first obs is on its way to scout terran’s base. Should I spread my goons out on my main when I don’t see a push when I have 4~5 goons out?
if u find him not moving out after your third goon, then surely something is up. get your robo up after you started the fourth goon and make a wall in your nat. two goons in nat and rally the next few to your nat. two goons should be enough to deal with the threat with observers. the whole deal here is not to lose probes. even if you lose mining time, it is okay because his own expansion timing is delayed. you can expand to a third right after you deal with the vulture harass and it would be good to get some goons in the main for a while later too.
火心 Jealous. I always loved that feeling when I was young. Embrace it.
Hey, i got a question regarding pro level ZvZ first overlord scout.
Why in circular maps, regarding natural positioning, such as FS, dont players scout the "wrong way", to the main instead of the closest natural?
If they assume the other player will scout the "right way", instead of having 50% chance(assuming a 4 player map and ignoring the cross map position) of scouting correctly and getting an advantage, and accepting the inherent 50% chance of getting scouted first and behind on a disadvantage, why dont they scout the "wrong way" and have a 0% chance of being in either an advantage or disadvantage?
I'd assume this "technique" would be helpful to stronger players because it has less of a luck based risk involved.
Does the 50% chance of finding a possible early expo outweighs a zero risk situation?
Thank you.
hacklebeast United States. February 29 2012 13:10. Posts 4643
On February 29 2012 11:55 Mottz wrote: Hey, i got a question regarding pro level ZvZ first overlord scout.
Why in circular maps, regarding natural positioning, such as FS, dont players scout the "wrong way", to the main instead of the closest natural?
If they assume the other player will scout the "right way", instead of having 50% chance(assuming a 4 player map and ignoring the cross map position) of scouting correctly and getting an advantage, and accepting the inherent 50% chance of getting scouted first and behind on a disadvantage, why dont they scout the "wrong way" and have a 0% chance of being in either an advantage or disadvantage?
I'd assume this "technique" would be helpful to stronger players because it has less of a luck based risk involved.
Does the 50% chance of finding a possible early expo outweighs a zero risk situation?
Thank you.
Going to the nat isn't just to see the hatch, but also to see the timing of when the lings come out. Seeing early lings lets players know if they need to pull drones to defend their hatch, or (in extreme cases) if they need to put a sunken in their main.
Actually scouting the main isn't a big deal. By that time it is already too late to adjust your build based on his opening, but it is too early to gauge his spire timing (not to mention ZvZ has been refined to a point that you can tell his opening/his spire timing/how many lings he will build based on at what time you see his first lings).
If we are assuming the other player will correctly scout, then you can argue you gain more info scouting normal. If both players scout normal, one of three things will happen: either you find him (so he is in the direction you scouted), he finds you (so he is in the direction you didn't scout) or neither (so he is cross). IF you scouted wrong, then there is a 2/3 chance that you will not know where your opponent is.
On February 29 2012 11:55 Mottz wrote: Hey, i got a question regarding pro level ZvZ first overlord scout.
Why in circular maps, regarding natural positioning, such as FS, dont players scout the "wrong way", to the main instead of the closest natural?
If they assume the other player will scout the "right way", instead of having 50% chance(assuming a 4 player map and ignoring the cross map position) of scouting correctly and getting an advantage, and accepting the inherent 50% chance of getting scouted first and behind on a disadvantage, why dont they scout the "wrong way" and have a 0% chance of being in either an advantage or disadvantage?
I'd assume this "technique" would be helpful to stronger players because it has less of a luck based risk involved.
Does the 50% chance of finding a possible early expo outweighs a zero risk situation?
Thank you.
Going to the nat isn't just to see the hatch, but also to see the timing of when the lings come out. Seeing early lings lets players know if they need to pull drones to defend their hatch, or (in extreme cases) if they need to put a sunken in their main.
Actually scouting the main isn't a big deal. By that time it is already too late to adjust your build based on his opening, but it is too early to gauge his spire timing (not to mention ZvZ has been refined to a point that you can tell his opening/his spire timing/how many lings he will build based on at what time you see his first lings).
If we are assuming the other player will correctly scout, then you can argue you gain more info scouting normal. If both players scout normal, one of three things will happen: either you find him (so he is in the direction you scouted), he finds you (so he is in the direction you didn't scout) or neither (so he is cross). IF you scouted wrong, then there is a 2/3 chance that you will not know where your opponent is.
Thank you for clarifying me, i wasn't aware, although it makes perfect sense, that there's a very low advantage gain from scouting the main first with the purpose of finding spire timings.
hacklebeast United States. February 29 2012 23:34. Posts 4643
On February 29 2012 19:49 Skeggaba wrote: How do you open screenshots taken in BW? Searched tl and got the answer "gimp" but that program is no longer working? The answer was a bit old ...
When I want to take screenshots of BW, I just hit the prt scr key, and ctrl+v in paint. Does that not work?
On February 29 2012 23:40 Skeggaba wrote: ^^ Well i have them all saved in a folder and cant open them at all now, not even with paint ... (pressed print screen alot of time, doing a project)
Use Irfanview to capture screenshots. It's under Options -> Capture and it'll save those images somewhere in a range of formats.
It can also open the .pcx files you made in your starcraft folder.
Last edit: 2012-03-01 00:03:35
t.t
Skeggaba Korea (South). March 01 2012 00:32. Posts 1515
On February 29 2012 11:55 Mottz wrote: Hey, i got a question regarding pro level ZvZ first overlord scout.
Why in circular maps, regarding natural positioning, such as FS, dont players scout the "wrong way", to the main instead of the closest natural?
If they assume the other player will scout the "right way", instead of having 50% chance(assuming a 4 player map and ignoring the cross map position) of scouting correctly and getting an advantage, and accepting the inherent 50% chance of getting scouted first and behind on a disadvantage, why dont they scout the "wrong way" and have a 0% chance of being in either an advantage or disadvantage?
I'd assume this "technique" would be helpful to stronger players because it has less of a luck based risk involved.
Does the 50% chance of finding a possible early expo outweighs a zero risk situation?
Thank you.
Going to the nat isn't just to see the hatch, but also to see the timing of when the lings come out. Seeing early lings lets players know if they need to pull drones to defend their hatch, or (in extreme cases) if they need to put a sunken in their main.
Actually scouting the main isn't a big deal. By that time it is already too late to adjust your build based on his opening, but it is too early to gauge his spire timing (not to mention ZvZ has been refined to a point that you can tell his opening/his spire timing/how many lings he will build based on at what time you see his first lings).
If we are assuming the other player will correctly scout, then you can argue you gain more info scouting normal. If both players scout normal, one of three things will happen: either you find him (so he is in the direction you scouted), he finds you (so he is in the direction you didn't scout) or neither (so he is cross). IF you scouted wrong, then there is a 2/3 chance that you will not know where your opponent is.
if u scout wrong and enemy scouts right, u can still know 100% where your opponent is: 1. both ovis meet in middle of the bases = close and both scouted each other 2. both overlords meet at another main base = he is cross 3. u see no overlord at the other main base = he is close in the direction u didnt scout
so both times i can "always" determine where my enemy z is. well there are some exception.
when i scout right vs scout right, if i see no ovi, i "know" he is cross when i scout right vs scout wrong, if i see no ovi, i "know" he is the other close position when i scout wrong and he scouts right, if i see no ovi, i "know" he is the other close position. when i scout wrong and he scouts wrong, if i see no ovi, i "know" he is cross.
so if u dont know what scouting pattern your enemy is known for, u still need to guess between cross or the other close position. But because of the above mentioned advantage a right scout gives, its used more often (like 75%), so its "safer" to assume that the enemy uses the right scout. there are still more exceptions but i dont want to go more into it^^ (hardly anybody uses them)
and to your question of ignoring the risk being at disadvantage, if u dont go for the nat/ramp first, u wont catch 9 pool/overpool lings (unless u directly go for the ramp outside nat when u see ovi between bases, not sure about correct timing...) and its generally harder to decipher his build.
On February 29 2012 01:47 mtwow789 wrote: In PvT, what is the proper response to Terran’s one fac, one starport to fast 4 vult drop when I am on one gate expansion? I am having difficult time distinguishing it between 2fac push/FD or vulture first build. Sometimes oppoents have bunker set up in nat to fool me he has expanded while vultures are racking probe kills. It seems that my first obs is always too late to scout one star. When 4 vults drops on my main, my first obs is on its way to scout terran’s base. Should I spread my goons out on my main when I don’t see a push when I have 4~5 goons out?
What I find really helps is to set up spotter pylons at areas where the dropship is likely to fly past. This way you'll get early notice (provided you're looking at your minimap) to position goons and gives you time to send your obs back home.
If you're having trouble guessing which build the terran is doing, watch those replays again so you can understand what you should be seeing when they're doing what build.
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