On June 07 2012 01:14 Dead9 wrote: or you could ask someone?
Edit: Whatever, I'm so fucking fed up with the Brood War scene. No one knows nothing, and even if they know they don't tell. I'm just so mentally exhausted on this game, I made a whole blog post on this subject a while ago, the situation still holds. No one helps, so whats the point.
im sry that it took me 4 hours to realize that u wrote in this thread. i dont read blogs because they 99.99% dont ask for z related help. yes, not everybody tells their secrets so its easier for u to beat them next time. the general problem the foreign scene currently has is that because of 70% of bw people (and like 85% -90% of "skilled" people) left for sc2, a big part of the strategy variation vanished. In addition to the fact that the korean scene still underwent changes, its hard for any single person to keep up with all, while not forgetting how to play vs a "simple" bunker rush (dont forget training on new maps...) Many on TL resorted to the thinking of "what the pros play and say is 100% correct, everything else is just bad or wrong" which also resulted in a more simple variation of builds, for example, every 2nd zvt game is against 1 rax fe into +1 4 rax, while only every 10th or so is vs 1 rax fe into 2 rax aca. Everything together changed the "economy of knowing strategies", sort of.... we are fewer people and play fewer strategies, so if u figured out how to play against 1 strat, its more valuable then it was pre sc2. And its also harder to learn how to play vs a strat which is rarely played because of the above reasons, so if u would write a guide to implement all the "small" stuff, u essentielly (as a zerg) have to give away all your building triggers, which in return would make it very easy for enemies to exploit that. In my opinion the reason why there are fewer macro related zerg guides is that the first zerg action is a "reaction". e.g. 3 hatch spire into 5 hatch. build looks good, but only get u into 5 hatches making hydras and u still didnt react to any of p builds. p can go fe into +1 speedzeal into archives and make 2 archons and u have very good options vs "nearly" all z builds. As zerg u "essentially" have to go different paths if u play vs +1 speedzeal or cors/dt or cors into 4 gate 2 archon or ..... because zerg economy needs special treatment (p or t builds are more "fluid" because of constant probe/scv production) combined with the fact that u can more or less choose to play lurker, hydra or muta against any of p builds, all with different drone "timings" and risk/reward factor again makes it really hard to write a good guide. But id like to see a guide about 3 hatch spire into 5 hatch sunk/spore with fast 6th hatch on 4th base.
NOW against 2 gate at his nat, u more or less play like he has 2 gates in main, except that zeals might come earlier so u might need an extra sunken/more drones (or if u are cross position, it could be that nothing changes). 12 hatch vs 10/12 gate: make 2 sunken instantly when nat hatch finishes, if he is rather close and zeals gets to your nat about the moment u place those 2 sunks, make a 3rd sunk. After u defend the first rush with sunks/drones/lings, it is depending on how many lings/sunks u survive with, but u can "normally" do what u want now because he cant scout u, 2 hatch hydra, 2 hatch muta, 3 hatch muta, 3 hatch lurker. 95% of p will go 2 gate into nexus into cors which is his safest choice so he can scout your base + prepare vs mutas. u still have to make lings and/or sunks if he continues to make zeals (2 sunks are good, ling count depends on zeal count) I normally go 3 hatch muta into 5 hatch lurker after it, taking advantage that p will go the above mentioned pattern, using all gas for cors and few ht, minerals for mass zeals.
12 hatch vs 9/9 gate: i have like 0 experience vs that because they either 10/12 gate me or go proxy 9/9.... essentially, u need 4 sunks and hope u somehow survive.
overpool vs 10/12 gate: u dont necessarely need any sunk at all, because massing lings in itself "should" be enough. But u have to send every ling to his base, making use of the speed advantage (lings faster than zeals). u send first 6 lings out, when u are near his base, he should move out with 3 zeals and 2-3 probes. u move your lings around his "little push" and try to backstab/deny reinforcements. P now should place his next 2 zeals on his ramp while his "little push is still going to your nat, u bring your lings home fast enough so they can join the fight and u will have like 16 lings combined vs his 3 zeals/3 probes, with little ling micro pretty doable. After u "defended" the attack that way, u again can do what u want. If he doesnt commit to attack with his 3 zeals/3 probes, but instead moves his push a little back at home so he can reinforce, u send your new lings around his push so you will have more "counter/denying reinforcement"-lings, making it even harder for him to reinforce. If he goes home completely without attacking, keep your lings near his entrance so u can still threaten the backstab and u can make some drones (if u are able to place a panic sunken or 2 if he decides to move out)
overpool vs 9/9 gate: again, i only have experience vs proxy gate, but theoretically, his lack in economy should result in more commited attacks, making counters more effective (could be that if u get 6 lings in his base, u dont need to save your nat at all, sort of like vs proxy 9/9, but extremly depending on situation...........). if u want to clash his attack at your base, better make a sunk while fighting with 2-3 drones just to be sure (actually i dont know it, im sry, im a bad player).
If u still have any z related question, add me on skype (mf-bakuryu) or msn (actbakuryu@live.de). But have a little patience because im not super human, i also have to work and to sleep.
Last edit: 2012-06-07 06:29:45
Jealous United States. June 07 2012 05:23. Posts 2200
On June 04 2012 20:11 ShiroNeko wrote: Hello! I am a person who is planning to learn Brood War and have come from Starcraft 2. I wish to know how "saturation" is done in this game. Starcraft 2 was 24 workers in minerals and 3 workers in each gas to obtain full saturation, however, it seems to be much more complex in Brood War, especially with Zerg which is the race I plan to pick up. Judging from the 5 drone rule and my plan of producing mutas, if I had 2 hatcheries in each base, does that mean that each base is meant to have 10 drones on minerals, and 6 drones on gas? Thank you in advance. If possible, I'd like to know the average numbers for a fully saturated base for all 3 races.
in bw mining rate increases until you have a lot of workers (it's something ridiculous like 4x or 5x workers per mineral patch), so having more workers is always better for your economy
unfortunately zergs have to split larvae between drones and units so they can't just produce drones all day usually zergs have around 10~15 drones per base, but it really depends on the game in a cutthroat zvz, for example, it's not too uncommon to see things like 2base with only 8 drones on minerals and 6 drones on gas
Ah cool. correct me if im wrong but... ATM im playing with singleplayer bots and keep on getting rushed like hell. Judging from what i learnt in that guide. Per Hatchery, If i wanted constant ling lurker production, i should have 7 Drones on Minerals and 3 Drones on Gas. The problem is, By the time i manage to get this "saturation", and start Lurker Research (I'm doing 2 hatch lurker btw), I see 12 zealots entering my base and when i check to see what the ai has for eco with my 6 lings, he has around 16 Probes. Will my timing get faster, or is the exact timing for these 12 zealots to attack my base?
You don't understand the game at any level to elaborate on timing attacks. Sorry, but it's true. Forget about drone count like that, you don't "feel" the game. All you need to remember is 3 drones to gas (sometimes 4 if they gather badly - rare). How can you defend vs 12 zealots? Make anything ... You probably lack the necessary skill to execute what you want or the necessary experience from play. I know, it's harsh reality ;]
Seriously, cpu is like, terrible, sends a stream of zealots, and that's like hitting a wall with his head. You actually don't need anything advanced to easily beat a cpu.
You need to watch replays and learn some general strategies. The problem with guides, is they're usually written by players who can't play very good, so they become stuck to "fixed strategies" and build orders. Which is very limiting in the long run.
corumjhaelen France. June 09 2012 20:00. Posts 4782
On June 09 2012 19:51 13Julia wrote: You don't understand the game at any level to elaborate on timing attacks. Sorry, but it's true. Forget about drone count like that, you don't "feel" the game. All you need to remember is 3 drones to gas (sometimes 4 if they gather badly - rare). How can you defend vs 12 zealots? Make anything ... You probably lack the necessary skill to execute what you want or the necessary experience from play. I know, it's harsh reality ;]
Seriously, cpu is like, terrible, sends a stream of zealots, and that's like hitting a wall with his head. You actually don't need anything advanced to easily beat a cpu.
You need to watch replays and learn some general strategies. The problem with guides, is they're usually written by players who can't play very good, so they become stuck to "fixed strategies" and build orders. Which is very limiting in the long run.
Protoss CPU outright kills many modern builds, that's all. If you want to practise build, do it in an empty game (just close the cpu slot during the countdown). Ti beat the cpu, you still have to react to what he does.
numquam se plus agere quam nihil cum ageret, numquam minus solum esse quam cum solus esset
On June 09 2012 19:51 13Julia wrote: You don't understand the game at any level to elaborate on timing attacks. Sorry, but it's true. Forget about drone count like that, you don't "feel" the game. All you need to remember is 3 drones to gas (sometimes 4 if they gather badly - rare). How can you defend vs 12 zealots? Make anything ... You probably lack the necessary skill to execute what you want or the necessary experience from play. I know, it's harsh reality ;]
Seriously, cpu is like, terrible, sends a stream of zealots, and that's like hitting a wall with his head. You actually don't need anything advanced to easily beat a cpu.
You need to watch replays and learn some general strategies. The problem with guides, is they're usually written by players who can't play very good, so they become stuck to "fixed strategies" and build orders. Which is very limiting in the long run.
Alright, I'll analyse replays then... who do you recommend me to watch, I don't want to watch someone extremely pro, someone who is easy for the eyes of a beginner xD
As for the CPU, as soon as the lurkers are out, which is way too late, i instantly burrow, and control a drone for the zealot to follow... easy victory xD
I'll try to make a few pov's with comment and upload them in a bit. Don't hold your breath on it, should be around in a few hours if I can spare a bit more time.
1st: Get accustomed to a few openings:
9 ov -> 9 pool -> 11 hatch (anti rush, poor eco) -> 3rd hatch 9 ov -> 12 pool -> 12 hatch(better eco, gets you lings early, but can be die-hard rushed so lookout) -> 3rd hatch 9 ov-> 12 hatch -> 11 pool(eco build, but can be rushed easier and it might be hard to defend vs come canon rushes) -> 3rd
That's standard and basic. If you are new, hold onto them for a while.
vs zerg you can also play those builds, but zerg has speed-lings and mutas, so it might be tricky and that's why it is a bit different in standard zvz.
From there on, you decide whether to add a 3rd hatch or play from 2 hatch.
2 hatch doesn't need many drones and focuses on micro with few units and faster tech/use of your tech units to gain anything.
3 hatch is more standard, more open play with a bit more focus on eco, but -> ultimately you decide exactly, due to your drone count. You skip drones = you make units/tech, you add drones => you will have more units, but a bit later. So it depends what is the situation and what you want to play.
2 exps with 21 drones total = 3 exps with 21 drones total, but 3 exps is harder to defend.... ( I used the 7drone rule you pointed out) Of course, someone will come here and post a diagram that shows it's not true - however, in game it doesn't make huge difference. And defending more exps may put you in a disadvantage. Drone count matters, and depends on the style you play, and it is definitely not a very fixed number. The more you play, the more you will understand.
I tried to make some povs, but it seems xsplit lags my little laptop a bit, so I can't make any good vods and seems I can't find the microphone anywhere, so I am totaly unprepared right now : P Talking to my laptop is not a good idea. Anyways, are there people interested in learning zerg here? Idk if it's worth the effort to make vods that explain the mechanics of play.
On June 09 2012 19:51 13Julia wrote: You don't understand the game at any level to elaborate on timing attacks. Sorry, but it's true. Forget about drone count like that, you don't "feel" the game. All you need to remember is 3 drones to gas (sometimes 4 if they gather badly - rare). How can you defend vs 12 zealots? Make anything ... You probably lack the necessary skill to execute what you want or the necessary experience from play. I know, it's harsh reality ;]
Seriously, cpu is like, terrible, sends a stream of zealots, and that's like hitting a wall with his head. You actually don't need anything advanced to easily beat a cpu.
You need to watch replays and learn some general strategies. The problem with guides, is they're usually written by players who can't play very good, so they become stuck to "fixed strategies" and build orders. Which is very limiting in the long run.
Alright, I'll analyse replays then... who do you recommend me to watch, I don't want to watch someone extremely pro, someone who is easy for the eyes of a beginner xD
As for the CPU, as soon as the lurkers are out, which is way too late, i instantly burrow, and control a drone for the zealot to follow... easy victory xD
you should absolutely watch extremely pro replays of pros. its what i did to learn and understand the current meta game when i started. just go through the TLPD and watch zvp vods and see how pro zerg react to different protoss builds. HOWEVER, watching pro vods isnt a good way to beat the protoss cpu because the protoss cpu is absolutely stupid. it uses a build that will never work if a person reacts correctly. i mean theres a reason you dont see 1base 3gate zeal in zvp.
edit: simple question: how do you change the unit icon next to your name? i want a seige tank cuz their awesome
Last edit: 2012-06-10 11:15:37
Jealous United States. June 10 2012 21:33. Posts 2200
On June 09 2012 19:51 13Julia wrote: You don't understand the game at any level to elaborate on timing attacks. Sorry, but it's true. Forget about drone count like that, you don't "feel" the game. All you need to remember is 3 drones to gas (sometimes 4 if they gather badly - rare). How can you defend vs 12 zealots? Make anything ... You probably lack the necessary skill to execute what you want or the necessary experience from play. I know, it's harsh reality ;]
Seriously, cpu is like, terrible, sends a stream of zealots, and that's like hitting a wall with his head. You actually don't need anything advanced to easily beat a cpu.
You need to watch replays and learn some general strategies. The problem with guides, is they're usually written by players who can't play very good, so they become stuck to "fixed strategies" and build orders. Which is very limiting in the long run.
Alright, I'll analyse replays then... who do you recommend me to watch, I don't want to watch someone extremely pro, someone who is easy for the eyes of a beginner xD
As for the CPU, as soon as the lurkers are out, which is way too late, i instantly burrow, and control a drone for the zealot to follow... easy victory xD
you should absolutely watch extremely pro replays of pros. its what i did to learn and understand the current meta game when i started. just go through the TLPD and watch zvp vods and see how pro zerg react to different protoss builds. HOWEVER, watching pro vods isnt a good way to beat the protoss cpu because the protoss cpu is absolutely stupid. it uses a build that will never work if a person reacts correctly. i mean theres a reason you dont see 1base 3gate zeal in zvp.
edit: simple question: how do you
Puyi never ask that question again... or THEY will come...
бум бум сучка!
Release United States. June 14 2012 12:01. Posts 3972
what happened to mine clearing w/o observers? (look at the beginning with free) and also things like stork mine clearing with shuttle + reaver?
Feels like forever since i've seen something like this happen, despite it being one of the most effective ways to screw with opponents' timings and attack earlier
☺
c3rberUs Philippines. June 14 2012 12:24. Posts 1843
It seems like only players in the old days did this. I can remember some players still doing this in GOM back in 2008 but I've never seen it this past few years. Maybe they its useless in today's metagame?
Here's a question, for a newbie, is it worth practicing harass oriented openings more than macro-based openings. I generally favor harass -> expand because it feels good to do reaver/dt drops.
it still happens but isn't as common because tvp isn't nearly as aggressive as back in 2006 this is in a partially due to maps and partially because the matchup is more well understood nowadays it wasn't particularly common back in 2006 either because it's pretty risky, that's why it makes it into highlight videos lol
szpt
corumjhaelen France. June 16 2012 04:33. Posts 4782
On June 14 2012 12:24 c3rberUs wrote: It seems like only players in the old days did this. I can remember some players still doing this in GOM back in 2008 but I've never seen it this past few years. Maybe they its useless in today's metagame?
Here's a question, for a newbie, is it worth practicing harass oriented openings more than macro-based openings. I generally favor harass -> expand because it feels good to do reaver/dt drops.
edit
A DT drop is basically an all-in. If you don't do enough damage (i.e. if he makes turrets) you're so vulnerable to a 3 / 4 fac timing push that you're forced to do a 2 base arbiter.
It's not bad to do these builds (actually reaver is fine vs 14cc build), but I personally only do builds that get me to late game so I can practice mechanics. Sometimes in a series or vs friends i'll do more cheesy builds but vs randoms I like to play very safe and very economically.
corumjhaelen France. June 16 2012 19:28. Posts 4782
going fast reaver is neither cheesy, nor unsafe. Even if you dont kill any scv's or tanks with the reaver, you still get to scout the terrans build and you set yourself in a more powerful position to delay the terrans third or micro down a timing push.
The only thing bad about going fast reaver is if you lose it for nothing.
Why would I play sctoo when I can play BW?
Chronopolis Canada. June 18 2012 08:35. Posts 1382
I can't 1a2a3a4a5a6a consistently. I'm 100% serious. I'm trying to break a zerg 3rd+4th with a 150 food army, or even worse trying to break a max push in pvt and I leave 2-3 control groups behind = autolose. How can you 1a2a3a4a5a6a reliably?
How do you deal with hotkey when you split up your army. Say you move 3/4 control groups of stuff to defend natural, while last control group defends 4th in pvz. If you bring hotkeys 1-2-3 to natural, your new units become control group number 5, and compounding the problem of not being able to #+amove relaibly is having odd control group combinations like 1-2-3-5.
You see, it's a siege tank that shoots force fields.
![[image loading]](http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q22/Kravitz_bucket/SAVEIB%2010/Flying-Monkey1.jpg)
CaucasianAsian Korea (South). June 16 2012 13:45. Posts 10459
