no exactly sure what to quote to answer everything....
Shine vs Soulkey: both were not really prepared to followup their 999. (well, only thing shine did wrong was that his 3rd hatch could have been placed like 20 seconds earlier) because shine placed his 2nd hatch in his main, he was "forced" to go for a 3rd hatch in the nat, otherwise he would sooner or later face soulkeys 2 gas (or be forced to mass ling all in) soulkey decided to go muta after his 999, but he also did it bad. he started mining gas at 300ish minerals, and he made his lair late at 400ish minerals and 100 gas. His spire was also late even though he made it at 150 gas. He always had 1 drone on gas when he started the lair, so he has to wait until he has enough gas to place spire. That gave shine time to simply use his 3rd hatchery to make a round of drones and still being able to out produce soulkeys 2 hatch ling. The moment shine attacked, Soulkey had too much gas mined (300 and still mining), and needed another sunken. 200 gas is enough (sometimes even 100 gas for just 1 muta, but here i think 2 would be more useful, given that his spire was already late). if soulkey went for faster lair/spire and realized earlier that shine was 3 hatch, he would have gone sunken/drone earlier, and then u can even make 3 sunkens because u have the drones to support them.
Shine's build was 999, not "great" build Great's build is mainhatch (12 hatch in main) speed into 3rd hatch. with 999, if u start with ling speed + lings, its very hard to do something after that, because u just have too few drones. Great's build in essence is an upgraded version of the 12 pool into 3 hatch speedling.
Shine vs hyvaa
so we have our typical 9p speed vs 12p 11gas 11 hatch at nat game. after all that fighting, Shine was ahead because: 1) he managed to drag out that fight for very long because he always won the fights, so hyvaa had hard time getting the upperhand with 2 hatches. 2) he managed to kill 2 drones, which together with reason 1) resulted in hyvaa canceling his lair in order to stay alive vs muta. 3) the natural hatch had like 150 hp left. makes it easy snipable to 5-6 mutas.
because of 1), Shine didnt needed a sunken and ye... he sniped the natural hatch with his mutas after that, he still couldnt attack because of all the spores and a possible panic mass ling from hyvaa, so he did the best thing which is just adding drones. the extra hatchery here makes sense because hyvaa is still very far away from mutas, so u can use the 3rd hatch more effectively and also Shine still had the muta advantage.
Crazy_Hydra vs hydra
CH goes fe, hydra goes 12pool 11 gas 11 hatch, lair first the vod exactly shows how fe is ahead. even though he completely lost in that ling attack, he still held the muta attack afterwards.(the one at 8 mins) he "barely" held the muta attack, yet he thinks he is ahead in muta count, tries to attack with muta/scourge at 9:50, rolls over and dies. Because u have to bring your overlords back before mutas (or else u lose them), there is a period, where he could mass lings to bust u before mutas, but u have no means of scouting it. If u mass lings on your own if u fe, u have a low risk/high reward scenario. Either u bust his front, or u still have even muta count (as seen in the vod at 8 min). It's the same reason why 12 pool 11 gas 11 hatch mirror often turn into scourge/ling.
P going 1 gate expo
i have no idea how they end, just searched until i found some games.
On June 22 2012 09:28 fold wrote: Does anyone know of a game where the protoss (in PvZ) opens one gate either in his main or his natural and gets two/three zealots before taking a nexus? This is what Minus)Eagle does a lot in his PvZs and I'm wondering if there's a progame of this. I recall Jangbi and Jaehoon doing this on Bloody Ridge but are there games on any other maps?
i remember a game where a protoss went for a fe while skipping forge completely and opted for a type of wall in with pylon+gateway+core and used a goon as a cannon. however the protoss lost to a ling bust. just thought it was interesting to share.
Release United States. June 23 2012 13:48. Posts 3973
@bakuryu But why don't they just make drones instead of the extra lings (keep ling count even to the opponent's)? And then in the pull overlords back period, make a sunken. This gives 12 hatch another eco advantage (later sunken) on top of the earlier hatchery. Because of this advantage, one will end up producing muta when his opponent produces scourge. When the muta counts get high enough (where a-move > pulling a JD), make scourge, and spare minerals go to a hatchery. This drags the game out quite long (as great tended to do) but it seems safer because the 12 hatching player literally copies his 12pooling opponent while having a (1/2) drone advantage. In short, because a 12 hatch gives you an economic advantage, you can literally copy everything your opponent does and still stay ahead.
☺
Release United States. June 23 2012 13:49. Posts 3973
On June 22 2012 09:28 fold wrote: Does anyone know of a game where the protoss (in PvZ) opens one gate either in his main or his natural and gets two/three zealots before taking a nexus? This is what Minus)Eagle does a lot in his PvZs and I'm wondering if there's a progame of this. I recall Jangbi and Jaehoon doing this on Bloody Ridge but are there games on any other maps?
i remember a game where a protoss went for a fe while skipping forge completely and opted for a type of wall in with pylon+gateway+core and used a goon as a cannon. however the protoss lost to a ling bust. just thought it was interesting to share.
Stork vs zero on Benzene Bacchus OSL.
You should also watch Stork vs Soulkey on Benzene + Show Spoiler +
what's the difference between the solid purple hotkey and the hollow one in bwchart?
"It's the end of the BW era which i devoted everything to for 10 years. I tried playing sc2, but my BW memories run too deep; I felt like I was playing an entirely different game" -ToSsGirL
Release United States. June 25 2012 14:13. Posts 3973
so we here about "6ling" all the time. 12 hatch ---> 6ling OP ---> 6ling any ZvZ BO ---> 6ling
but what about 12 ling? I've tested the 3hb4p timing and the natural hatchery hits 3 larvae shortly before the pool pops and if you make drones so as to keep you main hatchery matching the larvae count of the natural hatchery, you'll have ~250 - 300 minerals when the pool finishes (as well as 6 larvae).
Where would this be useful? A terran scouts the 3hb4p but the scv is ushered out of the base by drone micro. A terran who scounts this will stop making marines and go for a fast CC, without making bunker.
the terran will have inadequate defenses against a 12ling attack, and it transitions very nicely into a 3 hatch ling allin build (which is viable due to the fact that they have 1rax and 2cc for production.
So my question is, why isn't this used at all?
☺
puppykiller United States. June 25 2012 14:38. Posts 1953
yea, getting the scv out would be hard, and I would be hesitant about an all in just because of how late the speed would be.
But you should have either good overlord positioning, or at the very least could have a drone scouting when the pool finishes. If he has few marines and a quick cc build 12 and go even if the scv scouts you. Otherwise, get the extractor and make drones that will become sunkens for when you need to hold off his first attack. I think something like that could work especially on lower levels.
edit: and now we wait for bakuryu to swoop in and tell me why i'm only 90% right.
@ Crimson)S(hadow: iirc solid purple is ctrl + number and the hollow one is shift + number. btw is that bwchart pic from a tvz?
@ Release: actually i have no idea..... he should be able to scout it 99% of the time and he should have 6 or more marines + a bunker (not 100% sure). good t will circle scv around the lings and keep scv in your main, so u either 1) kill scv with your lings or 2) u make more lings to kill off scv while the first go to attack. 1) means later scv pull or more marines (if u use all lings to kill scv) or "weaker" attack because u only attack with 11 lings. 2) means he will be able to scout you making more lings = u have less eco, big chance for 3 hatch mass ling = terran will be prepared regardless of what u choose, massing lings will be scouted and u move in a pretty predictable mass ling situation. if u only go 12 lings and then revert back to mass drones + lair first.... then im actually not sure if u can use all your larva while teching fast....... sry cant comment on that, but i think the feeling would be the same if u start with 8 lings when u go 12 hatch 11 pool 13 hatch. 8 lings will delay your tech a little but if he doesnt make a bunker he is dead (i mostly do that vs weaker opponents)
If u compare it to the 14 cc against 12 hatch 11 gas 10 pool games (ling runby + mutas as followup) [flash vs effort for example] your ling runby is little earlier, your ling speed is earlier, and u will have muta out pretty early to capitalize on the advantage gained with the speedlings. with the 3 hatches going speedling first, and having a slightly later ling attack/runby in the beginning and a later ling speed, it might be harder to use the advantage u could gain with your lings. But because i only play 3hb4p in like 1 out of 10000 zvt games, i dont think i can give any good advice here..... sry...
Last edit: 2012-06-26 01:44:39
Crimson)S(hadow Philippines. June 26 2012 04:50. Posts 292
@Bakuryu its from a replay where i'm practicing late game mass m&m control by playing 3v1 comps on fpm
"It's the end of the BW era which i devoted everything to for 10 years. I tried playing sc2, but my BW memories run too deep; I felt like I was playing an entirely different game" -ToSsGirL
Can anyone tell me a good build order for ZvP,where Zerg goes for a fast fourth (with his 6th hatch),and what is the follow-up in tearms of tech/play style?
On June 28 2012 03:17 Vuk_91 wrote: Can anyone tell me a good build order for ZvP,where Zerg goes for a fast fourth (with his 6th hatch),and what is the follow-up in tearms of tech/play style?
Basically its like 5hatch hydra but you get the 6th hatch and drone&sunk up both your naturals instead of pumping hydras. And get mutas&scourge to deal with corsairs and apply pressure while turtling. Good examples are soulkey's zvp games for the past couple of years(he was its inventor i believe) although more recently the metagame hasbeen moving back towards 5 hatch hydra pressure
hacklebeast United States. June 28 2012 04:12. Posts 4630
I think technics plays that style very well. The goal is to get away without a spire, or at least delay it for quite a while and play a long mid game with a large hydra/lurk army. You don't necessarily have to go for a bust with the hydras, but use your army to dictate exactly how the protoss army moves. The large army usually allows you to take a 5th gas at some point, and if you can't win outright with the hydra lurk, tech up to ultras and overwhelm your opponent.
I (regrettably) decided to watch the replays, and I realized those replays have NOTHING to do with Vuk's request, and have almost no relevance with my answer, other than not playing with a spire vs someone who hardly uses Corsairs. Way to answer his question bro
4base 6hatch +1 air carapace has been the standard in the proscene for a while, there's a lot of VODs you can refer to in the past 1-2 years. Common followups are either muta/scourge, hydra mass, or fast hive tech. Lurker is not as common, but a viable option. Unfortunately, there is no good guide for foreigners regarding this strategy, so you'll have to do research on your own. I believe Harem is particularly knowledgeable about this build, so you should consult him.
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ArvickHero June 28 2012 07:18. Posts 9378
