The zerg went for a fast 4th with 6 hatches, which is everything the original question asked. It may not be the way you like to play fast 4 base, but that's fine, there can be different variations. And even if he only wanted to know how to play the more defensive style (of which there was no indication in the original question) there is no reason to be such a prick.
I stand by what I said, I like the way technics plays it. If you are unfamiliar with who technics or sneazel are, I feel bad for you. You are missing out on a lot of good starcraft.
Ill repost a reply I gave someone in a different thread recently:
Heres a build order and example VOD of what I and others on this site consider a great example of the current best ZvP strategy.
ZvP overlord pool 2nd hatchery 3rd hatchery lair spire 4th and 5th hatchery 6th hatchery hydra den and evo 2 sunkens 2nd gas sunken 3rd gas 7th and 8th hatchery 4th gas 2 spores sunken 2nd evo queens 3 more sunkens hive 3rd evo defiler mound nydus 9th 10th and 11th hatcheries
This is a very very rough guidleine to start from.
Your perception of time must be fairly warped to consider those games having fast fourths, except for that one game on Sniper Ridge when the Zerg had a massive advantage anyways.
You may justify your answer in that way, but I'm 99% sure he's asking for the pro-level "variation" (after all, most of us on this site would rather play like the pros than the ams), and if I were him I would be rather annoyed if someone tried to answer my question with something wildly different, though I suppose his wording could've left things to interpretation according to you.
I'm being a prick? My apologies, perhaps I was a little too abrasive. For you especially, I'll be more polite
Also, it's ok that you like how technics plays it. I have nothing against it, other than my thoughts that delayed spire is a limited playstyle. I know they're top foreigners, but I'm quite content with watching afreeca streamers on my phone instead. I don't need your pity at all.
I think Miwyfe's post was pretty good, what would help is to explain why some of things are built in that particular order instead of another. Its important to note the Den and Evo is delayed in favor for the faster fourth, and that +1 air carapace is usually upgraded right away to deal with the +1 sairs. On certain maps, you can even get away with 1 sunken if the simcity is good enough. From that point, the build will vary depending on what you want to do.
Last edit: 2012-06-28 10:20:00
http://www.youtube.com/user/whereismy5
ghrur United States. June 28 2012 10:48. Posts 2620
On June 28 2012 03:17 Vuk_91 wrote: Can anyone tell me a good build order for ZvP,where Zerg goes for a fast fourth (with his 6th hatch),and what is the follow-up in tearms of tech/play style?
Sure. Here's one that I try to use. I never get it spot on, because it really depends on how many lings you build, how many sunkens you place, what the protoss does, etc. There are little modifications from game to game and player to player depending on how greedy you want to be, etc, but yeah, it's an overall build I copied off a Jaedong FPVod.
Overpool (I go 9 over, 9 pool, drone until 11, hatch, 6 lings) Send drone toward third at 14/18 with 200 minerals 15/18 extractor (around 220-250 minerals) 15/18 hatchery 16/18 Overlord 18/18 lair 21/27 Ling Speed 23/27 or 24/27 overlord (depending on preference 24/27 2 pairs of lings 32/35 4th hatch (I like it at third for faster drones once hatch gets up) 35/35 5th hatch *When spire finishes, be sure to have 43 food possible and make 2 pairs of scourge. 1 for first corsair, one for scouting. If you see more sairs being produced/2nd sair, get more scourge and +1 air carapace. Otherwise, you can skip it for earlier hydra ups and earlier overlord speed, allowing you to move out safely. 38/43 6th hatch 2 sunks around 400 spire health, 1 at each nat 40/43 Hydra den 42/51 Evo Chamber 42/51 2nd gas 44/51-47/51Air Carapace 44/51-47/51 +1 Range attack 47/51 Overlord Speed Hydra Pump at 50 food.
Note: You will need more sunkens vs +1 Speed Zealots and possibly lings. I normally drone a ton during these periods as a good sim-city, a few lings, and good drone drills can hold off a lot of attacks at D/D+ levels. Also, make SURE you scout with the scourge.
For overlord scouting: On a 4 player map, I like to send one overlord in the direction of the 2 closest mains and keep a third overlord at my natural. This means I will, 66% of the time, have 1 scouting overlord and 100% of the time have at least 1 overlord at my third by the time sairs/dts come out. I usually keep the third overlord at my natural, and make my fourth with my main so I can continue droning up with my natural and third hatcheries. I try to keep my third hatchery producing drones whenever possible as that'll be the least saturated base. One way to do that is to produce overlords with main hatchery instead of third hatchery.
Also, as harem suggested, I now build a spire at my natural so DT drops can't kill it off easily, and it becomes part of the Sunken sim-city making it even harder to hit. If you place it 2 hexes behind where the 5th hatchery would be, you can protect sunkens from the top when zealots try to run past the drone lines. It's pretty neat. :D You can essentially have 1 sunken only able to be attacked by 1 zealot as it's protected by hatchery on, spire, hydra/evo, and another sunken/creep. Really nice sim city imo.
Third gas timings vary to me. I had it written down at around 44-47/53, but it depends. I think that's mainly for if you want more scourge. However, an earlier third gas means more lurkers later on but also gas/mineral imbalance for a while, possibly a slower saturation of your 4th, and slower 7th/8th hatcheries. That said, Zergs are often low on gas, so I think 47-50 is probably a good bench mark for the third gas. Get it before Lurkers pop or you'll have no gas.
Fourth gas timings, I'm quite clueless on. I just... get it whenever I see I have a mineral/gas imbalance starting to form. I'd say pre-hive timings?
My cursor refuses to lock itself into the game window when I use W-mode on Chaos Launcher. Anyone know a fix? Note: This only happens when I access the battle.net servers :L
hacklebeast United States. June 30 2012 02:50. Posts 4632
1 - Restrict Cursor (VERY USEFUL) - When this is green, your cursor will be restricted inside the starcraft window, allowing you to scroll on the edges. To turn it back off, ALT-TAB out of starcraft like normal, then uncheck the button. this is the feature that has been missing from window mode for years!
2 - Moveable - When this is green, the starcraft window can be moved around by dragging the titlebar.
3 - Stay on Top - When this is green, starcraft will stay on top of all other windows on your screen.
On June 04 2008 04:07 Catyoul wrote: There are hotkeys too :
* ALT+F1 Turns on/off cursor clip. * ALT Temporarily inverts the current state of cursor clip while it is held down. * ALT+F10 Enables/disables moving the StarCraft window. * ALT+F11 Turn on/off always-on-top mode.
On June 28 2012 03:17 Vuk_91 wrote: Can anyone tell me a good build order for ZvP,where Zerg goes for a fast fourth (with his 6th hatch),and what is the follow-up in tearms of tech/play style?
Sure. Here's one that I try to use. I never get it spot on, because it really depends on how many lings you build, how many sunkens you place, what the protoss does, etc. There are little modifications from game to game and player to player depending on how greedy you want to be, etc, but yeah, it's an overall build I copied off a Jaedong FPVod.
Overpool (I go 9 over, 9 pool, drone until 11, hatch, 6 lings) Send drone toward third at 14/18 with 200 minerals 15/18 extractor (around 220-250 minerals) 15/18 hatchery 16/18 Overlord 18/18 lair 21/27 Ling Speed 23/27 or 24/27 overlord (depending on preference 24/27 2 pairs of lings 32/35 4th hatch (I like it at third for faster drones once hatch gets up) 35/35 5th hatch *When spire finishes, be sure to have 43 food possible and make 2 pairs of scourge. 1 for first corsair, one for scouting. If you see more sairs being produced/2nd sair, get more scourge and +1 air carapace. Otherwise, you can skip it for earlier hydra ups and earlier overlord speed, allowing you to move out safely. 38/43 6th hatch 2 sunks around 400 spire health, 1 at each nat 40/43 Hydra den 42/51 Evo Chamber 42/51 2nd gas 44/51-47/51Air Carapace 44/51-47/51 +1 Range attack 47/51 Overlord Speed Hydra Pump at 50 food.
Note: You will need more sunkens vs +1 Speed Zealots and possibly lings. I normally drone a ton during these periods as a good sim-city, a few lings, and good drone drills can hold off a lot of attacks at D/D+ levels. Also, make SURE you scout with the scourge.
For overlord scouting: On a 4 player map, I like to send one overlord in the direction of the 2 closest mains and keep a third overlord at my natural. This means I will, 66% of the time, have 1 scouting overlord and 100% of the time have at least 1 overlord at my third by the time sairs/dts come out. I usually keep the third overlord at my natural, and make my fourth with my main so I can continue droning up with my natural and third hatcheries. I try to keep my third hatchery producing drones whenever possible as that'll be the least saturated base. One way to do that is to produce overlords with main hatchery instead of third hatchery.
Also, as harem suggested, I now build a spire at my natural so DT drops can't kill it off easily, and it becomes part of the Sunken sim-city making it even harder to hit. If you place it 2 hexes behind where the 5th hatchery would be, you can protect sunkens from the top when zealots try to run past the drone lines. It's pretty neat. :D You can essentially have 1 sunken only able to be attacked by 1 zealot as it's protected by hatchery on, spire, hydra/evo, and another sunken/creep. Really nice sim city imo.
Third gas timings vary to me. I had it written down at around 44-47/53, but it depends. I think that's mainly for if you want more scourge. However, an earlier third gas means more lurkers later on but also gas/mineral imbalance for a while, possibly a slower saturation of your 4th, and slower 7th/8th hatcheries. That said, Zergs are often low on gas, so I think 47-50 is probably a good bench mark for the third gas. Get it before Lurkers pop or you'll have no gas.
Fourth gas timings, I'm quite clueless on. I just... get it whenever I see I have a mineral/gas imbalance starting to form. I'd say pre-hive timings?
Did you just write a guide? 0.0
Whatever happend to Simple Questions Simple Answers. ~_~
Edit: Wow I thought I was in SC2 strategy. Herp Derp. T_T
On June 29 2012 17:55 ShiroNeko wrote: My cursor refuses to lock itself into the game window when I use W-mode on Chaos Launcher. Anyone know a fix? Note: This only happens when I access the battle.net servers :L
Try starting a game vs a computer in battle.net. It should work once you're in a game room.
Why is wrong to contain terran with lurkers instead of mutalisk harras? Isnt it serves the same purpose? To keep the terran in til your econ or tech is ready to engage?
Last edit: 2012-07-01 03:35:45
Tekken ProGamer
corumjhaelen France. July 01 2012 03:38. Posts 4783
On July 01 2012 03:35 therockmanxx wrote: Why is wrong to contain terran with lurkers instead of mutalisk harras? Isnt it serves the same purpose? To keep the terran in til your econ or tech is ready to engage?
It's not wrong, it's just not possible to the same extent. If terran knows you're going lurker, he'll be the one containing you, and lurker lack the mobility given by mutas.
numquam se plus agere quam nihil cum ageret, numquam minus solum esse quam cum solus esset
5hatch hydra [without getting lair, i think people did it before bisu build] is a build my korean friend did a lot in zvp.
he said to only do it if you open with a 12 hatch, but he couldnt really explain to me why because of broken english. he said something about economy, but does anyone know why??
also, whats up with 2hatch lurker being a dangerous timing? Is it if the terran does a 1rax->expand that he wont have scan in time to scan if you're going lurkers or mutas, and if he scans lurkers, he wont have time to get bunkers or something? :S
why are zergs all opening zvp with overpool on fighting spirit instead of 12hatch?
12hatch is fine on fs most of the time, I just go overpool there if he scouts me first. overpool just makes sure that your hatch doesn't get blocked, thats why you see overpool mainly on 2 player maps. PS: I'm low rank, please correct me if I'm wrong
Release United States. July 01 2012 16:23. Posts 3973
On July 01 2012 10:12 Flip9 wrote: 12hatch is fine on fs most of the time, I just go overpool there if he scouts me first. overpool just makes sure that your hatch doesn't get blocked, thats why you see overpool mainly on 2 player maps. PS: I'm low rank, please correct me if I'm wrong
a scouted 12 hatch is suicide because protoss can just nex, gate, core and destroy you.
On July 01 2012 06:37 Mobius wrote: 5hatch hydra [without getting lair, i think people did it before bisu build] is a build my korean friend did a lot in zvp.
he said to only do it if you open with a 12 hatch, but he couldnt really explain to me why because of broken english. he said something about economy, but does anyone know why??
also, whats up with 2hatch lurker being a dangerous timing? Is it if the terran does a 1rax->expand that he wont have scan in time to scan if you're going lurkers or mutas, and if he scans lurkers, he wont have time to get bunkers or something? :S
why are zergs all opening zvp with overpool on fighting spirit instead of 12hatch?
with 5 hatch before gas, u set yourself up in a situation where u can always outmass your opponent with mass hydra/lurker.
if u go overpool against p, both will have "even" tech timing if u play 12 hatch vs p and he scouts it early enough to skip cannons or forge, he will use his "advantage" to get out a faster corsair (unless he is +1 speedzeal), while zerg would need to tech even faster than they already do (if they opt for 3 hatch spire) often delaying the 3rd hatch a little. Because of that its hard to use the larva advantage u get just because u have to tech so early in order to cost effectively counter the corsair with scourge.
i think they open overpool because the 12 hatch gives them only a very small advantage (because they need the fast tech, not the eco [lets say that they also want the eco, but dont have time to use it because they need to tech early]), while overpool is safer against 9/9 gate and cant get cannon rushed or the natural hatch blocked by probe.
now with that in mind, if u go 5 hatch before gas, u dont need that fast tech, so its easier to use the larva advantage to get better eco so its easier to always outmass your opponent.
I never play 2 hatch lurker vs terran, but i would say that if he has to use both scans to find out that u are going 2 hatch lurker, u have the timing to attack before he gets enough energy to scan again. Thats also why faking 2 hatch lurker into 2 hatch muta works, because if they scan the hydra den with the first scan, they 99% safe the other scan in order to survive 2 hatch lurker more easily.
im not sure with what i said here because i have like 0 experience with playing 3 hatch spire or 2 hatch lurker, so everybody feel free to correct me.
On July 01 2012 06:37 Mobius wrote: 5hatch hydra [without getting lair, i think people did it before bisu build] is a build my korean friend did a lot in zvp.
he said to only do it if you open with a 12 hatch, but he couldnt really explain to me why because of broken english. he said something about economy, but does anyone know why??
also, whats up with 2hatch lurker being a dangerous timing? Is it if the terran does a 1rax->expand that he wont have scan in time to scan if you're going lurkers or mutas, and if he scans lurkers, he wont have time to get bunkers or something? :S
why are zergs all opening zvp with overpool on fighting spirit instead of 12hatch?
2hatch lurk is deadly because of how aggressive it is. i dont think it abuses any scan timing because a terran should always be able to see the hydra den with his scv. the den and lair goes down really fast i doubt you can kill the scv b4 revealing your build. however you can choose which branch of 2hatch lurk. you can bust down his nat with lurk ling or lurk drop or set up a contain for a 3rd. also i think really low level terrans dont know how to react to 2hatch lurk. they just think "oh lurk first. let me contain him." but you cant contain a build thats designed to kill or contain you
On July 07 2012 19:11 Operations wrote: Why some players do build their factories in TvP with space in between them?
For strategically purpose mostly. Likemyself, I do it to cover up a larger space in my main so there's no huge free place where toss can recall and maneuver his army easily or to avoid splash damage from rvrs and also because it's become a personal preference.
On July 07 2012 19:11 Operations wrote: Why some players do build their factories in TvP with space in between them?
For strategically purpose mostly. Likemyself, I do it to cover up a larger space in my main so there's no huge free place where toss can recall and maneuver his army easily or to avoid splash damage from rvrs and also because it's become a personal preference.
ya its mainly for recall defense. you wont want a huge block of 10 facts blocking ur units to defend. having a gap helps a lot.
Store
ArvickHero June 28 2012 10:13. Posts 9378
![[image loading]](http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/4206/featuresbm9.jpg)
