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I typically open 15 pool in a large % of my ZvP games, while expanding at 16 if possible, and 21-22ish if pylon blocked. When I scout a Protoss FE, my game plan is to take a very quick third. There is however, a large number of ways that you can go about this straight up hard core macro mode to try to counter the P's early expo.
I was wondering about an optimal way to get as many drones out as fast as possible in this scenario.
For example, should I get my third up asap around 25ish supply and delay queens? Should I delay my third hatch till about 40 supply and get queens/drone hard at both my other hatches? Get 1 queen at my main while delaying the other at my nat? I also tend to like getting a lair in a timely manner so that I can get OL speed to see what tech path the Toss is choosing.
There is also stargate play to consider when it comes to timing the third. Many Protoss are favoring a void ray + phoenix rallied to your third to deny it, so getting it up faster will allow you to get a spore up around it in time. This is pretty important since you won't have creep spread between your bases by then to defend with other queens.
Has anyone done any thorough experimentation with an early third and found some optimal timings? I would greatly appreciate it, thanks!
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I'm interested in this too. I never put in the effort to test anything, but I always wondered if I was playing correctly after an fe from toss.
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Interesting thread, i personally do fast 3rd, usually i make like 1 queen before and stop mining gas at all. But i never tested it very deeply so cant say its best for sure
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Has anyone done any thorough experimentation with an early third and found some optimal timings? I would greatly appreciate it, thanks!
though I don't think this is what you're looking for: I have fooled around with 3base/fast hydra/single queen vs Protoss and I will definatly do it again (at least in a custom game), just because out of curiosity. it was something like 15hatch, 15pool, ~26(inbase)hatch, and meanwhile skip the queens and the speed and get a fast lair and ~2spinecrawlers (1early, 1later on). then immidiatly tech to hydralisks (without range!). (if this build should ever work for me, I will definatly experiment with a 3rd base too, instead of the inbase hatch)
it sounds fantastic in theory: -) instead of speed you get a lair (-50minerals) -) instead of 2queens (which you can't utilize until you have 26drones!) you get a third hatch. -) you need less larva for your army because you focus on expensive power units (spinecrawlers, hydralisks) instead of cheap zerglings and roaches. -) you don't rely on queens for AA -) you can possibly produce overseers -) if you need more larva (12/min with 3hatch vs 20/min with 2hatch+2queen) you just build the queens later on, because building queens is easier than building hatcheries.
but to be honest, your blindly relying on your opponent not pushing before 6-7min, and still all you get is a bunch of "no-offensive-quality-without-creep-and-a-ton-of-canonfodder-in-front-of-them"hydralisks, that you cannot really afford, because you're not really able to mine enough gas for them. and macrowise low tech builds like spanishiwas and speedling only builds have been working better.
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First of all, what kind of FE are you talking about? 3gate, sentry FE or Forge FE?
You have two choices when you see a FE. Punish or out-marco him.
To punish him: 1) 2 base (30-40 drone, 1 gas) slow roach and speedling attack vs 3gate FE. This is the GSL Losira style. If you target the sentries with your roaches, then the speedlings will clean up. Plus you'll have money for a 3rd at the same time if you fail your attack. Protoss may get a voidray, but it won't kill your roaches and lings fast enough before they do damage anyways.
2) 2 base hydra - ling. This defeats forge FEs since he won't have too many units out and he's super screwed if he goes stargate tech.
3) If the map has a wide open natural and he tries to Forge FE, you can do the GSL IMNestea 3 spine crawler rush. Open 14 pool and 16 or 21 hatch, and then lings speed. With your second 100gas, get Lair. Mean while move 2 ovies in front of his wall and drop creep once lair completes. Plant the crawlers and make speedlings for support. Target his buildings and macro behind this pressure. Usually you'll kill him since he won't have units out.
To out-macro him:
I wouldn't recommend this route since the maxed Toss army is stronger than zerg's, but if you do then you have to tech quickly to hive tech (like 13-15 min mark) and get the tier 3 units out to beat his army.
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On May 10 2011 05:08 CanadianSCgamer wrote: First of all, what kind of FE are you talking about? 3gate, sentry FE or Forge FE?
Sorry for not specifying, but I was talking about a nexus first or forge expand.
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On May 10 2011 05:46 Tachion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 05:08 CanadianSCgamer wrote: First of all, what kind of FE are you talking about? 3gate, sentry FE or Forge FE?
Sorry for not specifying, but I was talking about a nexus first or forge expand. When Protoss Forge FE's and cannons, hes drawing a line in the sand. He's saying "I'm giving you the entire map for two bases." Use it. Expand to a third and drone up. And position your ovies to you can see when the third is coming and stop it. He hurt his mobile forces so use it. Ofc upgrades will be extra-early, so I would throw down double evo relatively early and begin upgrades. And then I would attack around the 200 mark.
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Get 2 queens, 3rd hatch at around 36 supply after your 36 supply overlord after droning hard to 36, ol on 36, use 3rd hatch to spend your money since you blocked yourself (better than making the OL earlier and not getting blocked because you get more drones faster and you can spend your money on a hatch anyway). 36 supply is also 16 drones per mineral line (36 supply - 4 supply for queens) if you pulled off gas, which you should temporarily do, giving you efficient saturation.
Get an evo in time for your 3rd to finish and transfer a handful of drones to it so that you can make spores if needed. You can also start an upgrade before lair if you want, but like you said a faster lair gives you earlier OL speed and better scouting so do you're comfortable with.
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On May 10 2011 05:58 falstag wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 05:46 Tachion wrote:On May 10 2011 05:08 CanadianSCgamer wrote: First of all, what kind of FE are you talking about? 3gate, sentry FE or Forge FE?
Sorry for not specifying, but I was talking about a nexus first or forge expand. When Protoss Forge FE's and cannons, hes drawing a line in the sand. He's saying "I'm giving you the entire map for two bases." Use it. Expand to a third and drone up. And position your ovies to you can see when the third is coming and stop it. He hurt his mobile forces so use it. Ofc upgrades will be extra-early, so I would throw down double evo relatively early and begin upgrades. And then I would attack around the 200 mark. I appreciate the input but that doesn't address anything I was asking ;p
On May 10 2011 06:00 sooch wrote: Get 2 queens, 3rd hatch at around 36 supply after your 36 supply overlord after droning hard to 36, ol on 36, use 3rd hatch to spend your money since you blocked yourself (better than making the OL earlier and not getting blocked because you get more drones faster and you can spend your money on a hatch anyway).
I just watched Daily #300 and noticed Sheth doing something pretty similar in his games as well.
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Yeah, it's fairly common. I actually stole the timing from Moon. I edited my post to include more information on why it's a good timing
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Ive actually been taking a really early third ( 23 ish ) supply if I see the P go nexus first. If you don't scout a stargate opener you can assume it's a 6 gate push since nexus first 6gate is super strong and way scarier than 3gate expo into 6gate. You can keep droning hard until the 6:45 second mark (roughly) and then pump units. The 6gate nexus first push comes at around the 8:00 hitting your natural. I prefer to make ling/bling to stop this but I'm only low master and good FF's completely counters ling/bling. Hope this helps
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On May 10 2011 06:12 Ruyguy wrote: Ive actually been taking a really early third ( 23 ish ) supply if I see the P go nexus first. If you don't scout a stargate opener you can assume it's a 6 gate push since nexus first 6gate is super strong and way scarier than 3gate expo into 6gate. You can keep droning hard until the 6:45 second mark (roughly) and then pump units. The 6gate nexus first push comes at around the 8:00 hitting your natural. I prefer to make ling/bling to stop this but I'm only low master and good FF's completely counters ling/bling. Hope this helps From my experience with the 6 gate timing after FE in Master's, I don't hardly have any time to drone up my third before I have to start making units in prep for a 6gate. In which case, it seems like the double queen with a third around 36 supply as stated above would be better? Since it gets you that double base saturation asap. Maybe you have a different experience with how much you can drone up before it hits.
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Taking a fast third sets you up for a more lucrative midgame vs other builds and if you can figure out how to hold a 6gate while you taking a fast third, even if you can't saturate it fully, there's no reason not to.
In my experience even with a 14 gas/pool I can saturate with 2 queens, get a fast overseer and a third base and scout out the 6gate and defend, burrow is really useful in this case.
The overseer scout should really show you how far you can saturate your third, and vs a 6gate delaying those drones is fine because his Colossus (or whatever weird tech path) is pretty delayed so once you've held off the attack you've got tons of room to drone (which is the problem with 6gating ;p)
On May 10 2011 06:12 Ruyguy wrote: Ive actually been taking a really early third ( 23 ish ) supply if I see the P go nexus first. If you don't scout a stargate opener you can assume it's a 6 gate push since nexus first 6gate is super strong and way scarier than 3gate expo into 6gate. You can keep droning hard until the 6:45 second mark (roughly) and then pump units. The 6gate nexus first push comes at around the 8:00 hitting your natural. I prefer to make ling/bling to stop this but I'm only low master and good FF's completely counters ling/bling. Hope this helps
why would you take a third at 23? you haven't even fully saturated without diminshing returns until you have 2 drones per patch.. you don't need access to more mineral patches!
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I find that if a Protoss Fast Expands (especially off of Forge FE or 1 gate FE) that it is an invitation to do the Spanishiwa build. If you already got your gas, great, then get ling speed and and then take a fast third and maybe even a fast fourth, depending on what you scout. Or you could do some form of roach rush all in if you really feel that you aren't going to outmacro him, but I do not support or endorse cheese.
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On May 10 2011 08:37 NoisyNinja wrote: I find that if a Protoss Fast Expands (especially off of Forge FE or 1 gate FE) that it is an invitation to do the Spanishiwa build. If you already got your gas, great, then get ling speed and and then take a fast third and maybe even a fast fourth, depending on what you scout. Or you could do some form of roach rush all in if you really feel that you aren't going to outmacro him, but I do not support or endorse cheese.
The spanishiwa build: -) fast hatch (did you do it? if not you can't play spanishiwa, because you don't get the 4queens) -) no gas (saves 1drone, and no speed = +4drones; did you take the gas and make the speed? you're not playing spanishiwas) -) spinecrawlers/queens (are you relying on a spinecrawler/queen defense? if not, you're not playing spanishiwas)
if you don't do those things, you're not playing spanishiwa's! else it would not be spanishiwas, but rather "some-beta-guy-who-found-out-droning-is-a-good-reaction-to-a-FFE"s build.
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especially vs forge expand, i wouldn't do spanishiwa style. Because you should have a hard time vs cannons at your hatchery every time . (i think 14/14 to double expand is the best)
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Yeah, I really wouldn't recommend spanishiwa on maps where the protoss is likely to forge FE. I've won my last three PvZs by simply denying his 13 hatch with cannons, it's not a situation you want to be in.
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