SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series
A Song of Ice and FireClick Here for the spoiler-free thread.
| zeru Sweden. June 08 2012 01:36. Posts 5852 | Profile Blog # |
| The only one who is alive who we know knows, is Howland Reed, unless I'm missing something |
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| ZasZ. United States. June 08 2012 01:37. Posts 1748 | Profile # |
On June 08 2012 01:32 Flik wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 13:39 Drowsy wrote:
On June 07 2012 11:33 RemedySC wrote:
Edit - That would make Aerys the father?
That was my thought. Jon's clearly a targaeryn, but R+L just seems so obvious. It would be like if Coldhands was really Benjen and Kindly Man/Syrio/Jaqen were the same person, just seems too cliche for GRRM.
Do you guys think Barristan knows the true parentage of Jon? If the 3 Kingsguard were really there to protect Jon from Robert's wrath then wouldn't Barristan know about it. Doesn't the Kingsguard have to discuss things like this amongst each other? I know Selmy was on the Trident and injured in the battle. But I guess if Selmy knew then Jaime would know, and clearly he doesn't.
I would expect that in times of war it would be easy for them to get separated performing their own tasks and have little to no communication with each other, but communicate through the King, for months at a time. It is possible that only the 3 at the tower knew of their purpose there. Especially considering that Barristan wasn't Lord Commander yet, it's not inconceivable that he didn't have all the information. He also doesn't seem to know about Aegon, but that was more a Varys/Illyrio plot so I'm not entirely surprised about that. |
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| Geo.Rion Hungary. June 08 2012 01:40. Posts 5350 | Profile Blog # |
On June 07 2012 13:39 Drowsy wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:33 RemedySC wrote:
Edit - That would make Aerys the father?
That was my thought. Jon's clearly a targaeryn, but R+L just seems so obvious. It would be like if Coldhands was really Benjen and Kindly Man/Syrio/Jaqen were the same person, just seems too cliche for GRRM.
no it would not be a cliche 90+% of the readers did not notice the hints on their own for L+R=J (While Syrio being Jaquen or Kindly man is very simplistic, highly trained warriors from braavos, they gotta be the same right?). GRRM even said in an interview, that the internet kinda "ruined" some surprises because if a few persons noticed the forshadowing they d go on post it on the internet and let everyone know; and he was left wondering if he should change his plans or give out contradictory hints in the future or something like that. Im paraphrasing a bit. |
| | "Protoss is a joke" Liquid`Jinro Okt.1. 2011 |
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| ZasZ. United States. June 08 2012 01:55. Posts 1748 | Profile # |
On June 08 2012 01:40 Geo.Rion wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 13:39 Drowsy wrote:
On June 07 2012 11:33 RemedySC wrote:
Edit - That would make Aerys the father?
That was my thought. Jon's clearly a targaeryn, but R+L just seems so obvious. It would be like if Coldhands was really Benjen and Kindly Man/Syrio/Jaqen were the same person, just seems too cliche for GRRM.
no it would not be a cliche 90+% of the readers did not notice the hints on their own for L+R=J (While Syrio being Jaquen or Kindly man is very simplistic, highly trained warriors from braavos, they gotta be the same right?). GRRM even said in an interview, that the internet kinda "ruined" some surprises because if a few persons noticed the forshadowing they d go on post it on the internet and let everyone know; and he was left wondering if he should change his plans or give out contradictory hints in the future or something like that. Im paraphrasing a bit.
I still think that Syrio is dead and that Jaqen may or may not be the Kindly Man. There are enough Faceless Men that I think it is more likely Jaqen really is in Old Town and the Kindly Man is what he seems (as much as a Faceless Man can be). Syrio always struck me as an extremely talented swordsman, proving it by taking out several soldiers with a wooden sword, but was in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong equipment going up against a man in full plate with a blade.
R+L seems so obvious now, after reading about it on the internet, but it was not something that occurred to me at all when reading through the books. Only after going through the second time with it already on my mind do I see the hints sprinkled here and there. I think it speaks to the depth of the story that such a HUGE implication is not really apparent at first glance.
I also think Coldhands=Benjen is obvious and intended to be obvious. I'm not sure it will matter in the long run, or that we'll get any confirmation either way, but it brings some perceived closure to that particular story arc. |
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| Drowsy United States. June 08 2012 04:21. Posts 4826 | Profile Blog # |
On June 08 2012 01:32 Flik wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 13:39 Drowsy wrote:
On June 07 2012 11:33 RemedySC wrote:
Edit - That would make Aerys the father?
That was my thought. Jon's clearly a targaeryn, but R+L just seems so obvious. It would be like if Coldhands was really Benjen and Kindly Man/Syrio/Jaqen were the same person, just seems too cliche for GRRM.
Do you guys think Barristan knows the true parentage of Jon? If the 3 Kingsguard were really there to protect Jon from Robert's wrath then wouldn't Barristan know about it. Doesn't the Kingsguard have to discuss things like this amongst each other? I know Selmy was on the Trident and injured in the battle. But I guess if Selmy knew then Jaime would know, and clearly he doesn't.
Barristan seems like the kind of guy who would know if the king sired a bastard and not give a fuck or mention it to anyone ever. So yes he might know, but I don't think he would have told any of the other kingsguard.
On June 08 2012 01:40 Geo.Rion wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 13:39 Drowsy wrote:
On June 07 2012 11:33 RemedySC wrote:
Edit - That would make Aerys the father?
That was my thought. Jon's clearly a targaeryn, but R+L just seems so obvious. It would be like if Coldhands was really Benjen and Kindly Man/Syrio/Jaqen were the same person, just seems too cliche for GRRM.
no it would not be a cliche 90+% of the readers did not notice the hints on their own for L+R=J (While Syrio being Jaquen or Kindly man is very simplistic, highly trained warriors from braavos, they gotta be the same right?). GRRM even said in an interview, that the internet kinda "ruined" some surprises because if a few persons noticed the forshadowing they d go on post it on the internet and let everyone know; and he was left wondering if he should change his plans or give out contradictory hints in the future or something like that. Im paraphrasing a bit.
You might be right... Some of the more obvious hints are from book 1 and that was out well before the internet exploded or his books were super popular. Last edit: 2012-06-08 04:28:37 |
| | Our Protoss, Who art in Aiur HongUn be Thy name; Thy stalker come, Thy will be blunk, on ladder as it is in Micro Tourny. Give us this win in our daily ladder, and forgive us our cheeses, As we forgive those who play zerg against us. |
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| Talin Montenegro. June 08 2012 09:41. Posts 8185 | Profile Blog # |
Yeah, the thing is that if you want to have a well-structured plot which is actually fair to the reader you need to hand out pieces of the puzzle as you build up the story, instead of consistently misleading him and going "Ha! I got you! Bet you never saw THAT coming" all the time.
With modern-day communities, people are just going to pick up and analyze the tiniest of details and come up with the most logical solution. I don't think the writers can or should fight that. Majority of people who don't over-analyze things will still see it as a surprise/revelation - even if they vaguely suspect it to be true, suspicion isn't the same as being pointed to a solved puzzle with solid evidence. |
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| Crazyeyes Canada. June 08 2012 10:24. Posts 1329 | Profile Blog # |
Yeah, I completley disagree with R+L=J being cliche or obvious. Sure it seems that way NOW, but when I first read that my mind was fucking blown and I was convinced they used sorcery to discover this shit.
I'm nearly certain that it is indeed the truth, but IMO that's just good writing and the power of technology combined with obsessive nerds. |
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| Flik Canada. June 08 2012 11:13. Posts 248 | Profile # |
| I think the biggest giveaway he made is when he said "Lyanna died on a bed of blood". What else could it be besides a birthing bed? One of the Kingsguard stab her before Ned could get to her? She killed herself so she wouldn't have to go back to Robert? I always think how convenient it was that he arrived just as she lay dying from child birth. |
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| ShadeR Australia. June 08 2012 23:56. Posts 6623 | Profile Blog # |
Is Jon Azor Ahai Jesus? How is he going to get to dragonstone?Last edit: 2012-06-08 23:57:02 |
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| Flyingdutchman Netherlands. June 09 2012 00:12. Posts 697 | Profile # |
On June 08 2012 11:13 Flik wrote:
I think the biggest giveaway he made is when he said "Lyanna died on a bed of blood". What else could it be besides a birthing bed? One of the Kingsguard stab her before Ned could get to her? She killed herself so she wouldn't have to go back to Robert? I always think how convenient it was that he arrived just as she lay dying from child birth.
I thought it was because Raegar was too big for her. I need to cut back on some activities... |
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| Flik Canada. June 09 2012 00:36. Posts 248 | Profile # |
On June 09 2012 00:12 Flyingdutchman wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 11:13 Flik wrote:
I think the biggest giveaway he made is when he said "Lyanna died on a bed of blood". What else could it be besides a birthing bed? One of the Kingsguard stab her before Ned could get to her? She killed herself so she wouldn't have to go back to Robert? I always think how convenient it was that he arrived just as she lay dying from child birth.
I thought it was because Raegar was too big for her. I need to cut back on some activities...
Ahahaha, she woke the Dragon!!! |
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| Geo.Rion Hungary. June 09 2012 03:10. Posts 5350 | Profile Blog # |
On June 09 2012 00:12 Flyingdutchman wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 11:13 Flik wrote:
I think the biggest giveaway he made is when he said "Lyanna died on a bed of blood". What else could it be besides a birthing bed? One of the Kingsguard stab her before Ned could get to her? She killed herself so she wouldn't have to go back to Robert? I always think how convenient it was that he arrived just as she lay dying from child birth.
I thought it was because Raegar was too big for her. I need to cut back on some activities...
Dude?! WTF? that s just wrong |
| | "Protoss is a joke" Liquid`Jinro Okt.1. 2011 |
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| Cambium Japan. June 09 2012 21:22. Posts 15634 | Profile Blog # |
The good Other dude (e: coldhand is the name) is actually Rhaegar, and he's gonna tell Jon that, "Jon, I am your father" as Jon attempts to fight him. "And I named you Luke; so really, Luke, I am your father".
Yep.Last edit: 2012-06-09 22:21:51 |
| | When you want something, all the universe conspires in helping you to achieve it. |
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| whatwhatanut United States. June 09 2012 22:09. Posts 162 | Profile # |
On June 09 2012 21:22 Cambium wrote:
The good Other dude (e: codehand is the name) is actually Rhaegar, and he's gonna tell Jon that, "Jon, I am your father" as Jon attempts to fight him. "And I named you Luke; so really, Luke, I am your father".
Yep.
Seems kinda obvious that its halfhand(can't remember if they burned him) or Benjin. Could just be me though.
Edit: It's coldhands btw or just coldhand (I think)Last edit: 2012-06-09 22:10:05 |
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| dormer United States. June 09 2012 22:10. Posts 1208 | Profile # |
On June 09 2012 22:09 whatwhatanut wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 21:22 Cambium wrote:
The good Other dude (e: codehand is the name) is actually Rhaegar, and he's gonna tell Jon that, "Jon, I am your father" as Jon attempts to fight him. "And I named you Luke; so really, Luke, I am your father".
Yep.
Seems kinda obvious that its halfhand(can't remember if they burned him) or Benjin. Could just be me though. Edit: It's coldhands btw or just coldhand (I think)
I'd assume the wildlings would have burned Halfhand -- they know what's up with the wights. We never really find out what happened to Benjen, though, so I assumed it was him. |
| | Artosis: "You need to hold my hand." Tasteless: "I'm very good at that." |
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| moopie June 09 2012 22:17. Posts 12498 | Profile # |
| Everyone assumes that its Benjen, it would be too obvoius if that was the case though. I hope GRRM never confirms it one way or the other. Coldhands' job was to get Bran to the CotF safely, that's done now. We don't need a reveal as to who he was. The children say "They killed him long ago", and that's good enough for me. |
| | I'm going to sleep, let me get some of that carpet. | |
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| whatwhatanut United States. June 09 2012 22:31. Posts 162 | Profile # |
On June 09 2012 22:17 moopie wrote:
Everyone assumes that its Benjen, it would be too obvoius if that was the case though. I hope GRRM never confirms it one way or the other. Coldhands' job was to get Bran to the CotF safely, that's done now. We don't need a reveal as to who he was. The children say "They killed him long ago", and that's good enough for me.
I think there may be a reveal but I do agree that Benjen is too ez. Maybe it is like one of the old Starks who went to the north. I remember in the book something about the Starks who weren't in line for the king in the north would often go to the wall to be commanders or rangers.
Either way I think its a great story line amidst a great story. |
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| Quexana June 09 2012 23:10. Posts 62 | Profile # |
On June 09 2012 22:31 whatwhatanut wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 22:17 moopie wrote:
Everyone assumes that its Benjen, it would be too obvoius if that was the case though. I hope GRRM never confirms it one way or the other. Coldhands' job was to get Bran to the CotF safely, that's done now. We don't need a reveal as to who he was. The children say "They killed him long ago", and that's good enough for me.
I think there may be a reveal but I do agree that Benjen is too ez. Maybe it is like one of the old Starks who went to the north. I remember in the book something about the Starks who weren't in line for the king in the north would often go to the wall to be commanders or rangers. Either way I think its a great story line amidst a great story.
My guess is that Coldhands is going to be revealed to be someone from the Dunk and Egg stories the same way that the Three-Eyed Crow is.
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| Irrelevant Label United States. June 10 2012 01:43. Posts 381 | Profile # |
Considering the evidence against Coldhands as Benjen I'd hardly call that one easy. The timeline does not match the implications by both Coldhands and Leaf regarding how long he has been Coldhands. Benjen has been gone for less than two years yet both Coldhands and Leaf refer to how long ago he was a crow and how long he has been dead respectively as a very long time. The only shred of reason to think it is Benjen is the the simplistic notion that "well Benjen is gone and here is a former ranger turned semi-wight type thing, must be him."
Didn't he also express ignorance of events in the seven kingdoms in recent decades at one point? |
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| Subspacer Canada. June 10 2012 02:58. Posts 10 | Profile # |
| Is Coldhands was Benjen wouldn't Bran have recognized him? |
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