[TV/BOOK] *SPOILERS* Game of Thrones Discussion - Page 7

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On May 24 2011 01:37 WhiteDog wrote:

So murdering the whore of Tyrion is for survive revenge or power ?
Killing a bunch of Night Guards is for power ?
Using Lancel as a sexual substitution while Jaime is away, while having the intention to kill him as soon as Jaime come back is certainely to survive...

Come on... Don't you see any difference ?

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On May 24 2011 02:51 1Eris1 wrote:



I don't think anyone will argue that Tywin is a good guy, but you can't just lump the Lannisters together in one big pot labeled evil. Yes, cersei and jaime have done bad things, but they've also done good things, same as certain Starks. It's not that black and white. They are very few Wholey Good characters in this book and most of them are dead or not main characters.
And I don't believe Cersei ever actually said she was going to murder Lancel, I believe that was just something Tyrion was speculating.

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On May 24 2011 02:51 1Eris1 wrote:

I don't think anyone will argue that Tywin is a good guy, but you can't just lump the Lannisters together in one big pot labeled evil. Yes, cersei and jaime have done bad things, but they've also done good things, same as certain Starks. It's not that black and white. They are very few Wholey Good characters in this book and most of them are dead or not main characters.
And I don't believe Cersei ever actually said she was going to murder Lancel, I believe that was just something Tyrion was speculating.

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On May 24 2011 03:48 Maginor wrote:
One thing I don't get, which is a common reaction from non-readers right now, is that they really want Khal Drogo to invade Westeros. Don't they see that he is a monster? Yes, he is honorable in his way, but in his culture, people who are not fighters are worth nothing. He is talking about raping their women and enslaving their people, and you can even see the fear in the eyes of Danaerys at that moment. I mean, who cares about who sits the throne so long as the common people don't have to be slaughtered and raped by a horde of brutish invaders?

Btw, to the above poster, you forgot Theon as a viewpoint character in the first two books. Not that it matters to your point.

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On May 24 2011 03:48 Maginor wrote:
One thing I don't get, which is a common reaction from non-readers right now, is that they really want Khal Drogo to invade Westeros. Don't they see that he is a monster? Yes, he is honorable in his way, but in his culture, people who are not fighters are worth nothing. He is talking about raping their women and enslaving their people, and you can even see the fear in the eyes of Danaerys at that moment. I mean, who cares about who sits the throne so long as the common people don't have to be slaughtered and raped by a horde of brutish invaders?

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On May 24 2011 03:57 GDbushido wrote:
We dont really know why people like Varys and Illyrio want the Dothraki in Westeros. Personally I think it has something to do with the conflict in the north, but nothing is certain. They could merely be interested in seeing Westeros burn.

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On May 24 2011 03:48 Maginor wrote:
One thing I don't get, which is a common reaction from non-readers right now, is that they really want Khal Drogo to invade Westeros. Don't they see that he is a monster? Yes, he is honorable in his way, but in his culture, people who are not fighters are worth nothing. He is talking about raping their women and enslaving their people, and you can even see the fear in the eyes of Danaerys at that moment. I mean, who cares about who sits the throne so long as the common people don't have to be slaughtered and raped by a horde of brutish invaders?

Btw, to the above poster, you forgot Theon as a viewpoint character in the first two books. Not that it matters to your point.

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On May 24 2011 03:28 elt wrote:
Everything Cersei has done has been either because of her hate for Robert (explained rather succinctly in Feast when he calls her "Lya" on their wedding night), or for her blood (especially children). I don't really think you can label anything she, or any of the Lannisters (apart from Joffrey who's a little twat) as "wholly" evil.

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On May 24 2011 04:27 Bagi wrote:

I don't want to get into the philosophical question of what is evil and what is not, but I find it really hard to find redeeming qualities for Cersei. She doesn't do things because she hates Robert, she does them for her own selfish personal gain. Joffrey was just her way to get ultimate power when she herself as a woman couldn't accomplish the same.

And like her actions weren't bad enough, once we get inside her head in AFFC we find out she is even worse. She has zero respect for anyone, she only uses people and hates on them under her breath. Even worse she's a complete fool with her schemes, everyone is outplaying her and she almost manages to ruin the kingdom before she gets caught. Even Robert was a sound ruler compared to her, at least he kept the competent people rule. Cersei brings her own "pawns" who are not only stupid but abandon her at the first sight of trouble.

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On May 24 2011 05:00 GDbushido wrote:
I dont see how anyone can read AFFC and not feel any pity for Cersei.

1) loses mother in early childhood
2) major absentee father
3) loses best childhood friend, still traumatized (nightmares, etc)

That's already a recipe for a seriously fucked up individual.

Then there's the incredibly oppressive environment she grows up in, which she probably hates about as much as Arya currently loathes hers. Then she's married (sold) to a distant, drunk, lecherous husband and is generally miserable for the next seventeen years. At this point the only joy she finds in life is her children, but because of that crazy shit with the maegi she has all kinds of control issues with them. Then Myrcella goes off to Dorne and Joffrey dies. Did I miss anything?

The point is...is Cersei totally fucking nuts (especially by the fourth book)? Absolutely. But I think she, like most folks, came by her flaws honestly.

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On May 24 2011 02:34 Sevryn wrote:
When syrio talked about there only being one god and it being death did anyone else think he might be a faceless one?

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On May 24 2011 02:44 Jyvblamo wrote:
There's been serious speculation that Jaqen H'gar and Syrio are the same person, but I'm not sure I buy that.

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On May 24 2011 04:06 Maginor wrote:

I wasn't talking about in-story characters, but about the viewers. But fair enough. I think Illyrio's motives are pretty obvious. He sees that the Targaryens have a small chance of taking back power, and if he was the one that helped them, he will be handsomely rewarded. He doesn't have that much to lose either. He invested some money in the venture, but it was probably little in relation to the wealth he posesses. Look at it as a high-risk/high-gain investment. When it comes to Varys, it is not that obvious. After all he aided Robert in trying to assassinate Daenerys. It may be that he wants to leave his options open so that whoever ends up in power, he can claim that he supported them from the beginning. Also, he claims to serve the realm, and maybe he actually thinks what is best for the realm is to have the Targaryens back in power to have a stable dynasty.

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On May 24 2011 05:06 Naib wrote:




I do not think that plausible either. A more likely explanation is that (as hinted by Arya's stay in the "House of Black and White" in Braavos) braavosi all share beliefs in 'one god above all' - the Many-Faced God, who is death itself (just as Syrio says in episode 6 of the series). That's why Braavos has a temple for all the gods people worship - because they think they're sort of irrelevant, and their god stands above them all.



I think saying "aided Robert trying to assasinate Daenerys" might not be that obvious. Yes, he nodded at the notion of the murder in the small council meeting, but do you really think if he wanted Dany dead, he'd have butchered it so carelessly? He's the master of whisperers after all. I think Varys' plan was a bit deeper than that. He wanted to act like he's not on Dany's side (which we know that he is, for some reason), and maybe speed up the dothraki invasion a bit ("delay, you say, make haste, I reply!") by angering Khal Drogo. I'm pretty sure he knows how dothraki ways are, and is able to manipulate them when he needs to.

Another point to consider is that he's not that powerful, he can't state his opinions in the open. Maybe he didn't want to draw suspicions on himself, that's why he didn't speak up against Robert's idea? Remember, when Ned loses the conspiration game and gets killed off, Varys knows he can't save him (even though he would want to, as he's the honorable man he was looking for to help keeping the realm in one piece). The most he does is to make the arrangements to send Ned to the Wall, and even that gets shattered to pieces by the more powerful players of the game...

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