Long time lurker, first post. I am a 1246 masters zerg. Sorry if I sound like a noob, but I promise I'm not totally stupid at this game.
I've been wondering what are strong exact build orders for zerg executing a two-base roach-ling aggression against protoss 3 gate (or now sometimes 2 gate) sentry expands. I'm thinking of Idra's play against Socke (I believe) and Losira's play in the GSL. I understand there are a number of variations depending on how all-in the zerg wants to go, but I'm looking for two things in particular.
A version from a 16 hatch, 15 pool build (do any other zergs do this?) I like to open with this build against toss (especially on larger maps) if I dont see a probe to block the expansion. I have done the roach ling-all aggression after this initial build when i sense the toss is expanding greedily (expanding with only 1 or 2 gateways then nexus for example).
A version from a 14 gas 14 pool or some other pool first build. Like I said, I prefer to play greedy with the hatchery first, but if I see a really early probe scout or cannot get the hatchery down i will pool first. I will sometimes use roach ling aggression in this situation if 1) I see the toss being greedy (see above) 2) I'm playing close positions, against an opponent i think is stronger than me, or something else makes me feel that I'm less likely to win in a longer game.
Anybody have precise build orders for the two scenarios outlined above? The other threads on TL I found about this build were quite general and didnt have exact BO's. If I'm mistaken, please redirect me to a thread with a specific BO.
According to this post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=140055#2 One requires 2 bases at 12 drones each to support nonstop speedling production if they have perfect injects, so an optimal build would not have many drones past 24 if it was completely all-in and only reinforced with speedlings.
Get a standard fast hatch, make 4 lings, gas and roach warren around 25. Build roaches and drones at ratio so that you have 0 larva and 0 minerals. Another gyser with 1-2 drones can be taken at this point, along with metabolic boost. Once you get around 24 drones take drones off gas and build pure speedling. 24 drones, 5 roaches(?), and 2 queens is 38 supply, so that is roughly when to move out and start making speedlings.
I don't think you will find very exact build orders because there are quite a few protoss expand builds and this build is very reactionary.
EDIT: I am going to use evolutionchamber(http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=160231) to find out the best build for fastest 5 roaches, 2 queens, and 24 drones. BRB.
EDIT2: Yeah... couldn't get the optimizer to use a hatch first eco friendly build until the point where an all in is decided.
Last edit: 2011-06-01 15:10:43
Masters Zerg. I just found out my name is an anagram of strudel. Delicious! http://grooveshark.com/#/deltrus/music
Angueo Korea (South). June 01 2011 14:19. Posts 53
14 Gas 14 Pool Lair after Pool finishes, keep mining and getting OL's respectively Spire Self-Explanatory G_G (this is how I got into Diamond back in the day when that was the highest from my Placement Matches since Boulders protect me hekehe)
But on a serious note...
10 Overlord (some people prefer 9, I don't but either one works) 13 Spawning Pool 12 Extractor 15 Roach Warren 14 Queen 16 1 Pair of Zerglings 17 Metabolic Boost 17 Overlord @125 Vespene Gas, take off all of your Drones from the Extractor and put them back onto Minerals. 17 3 Roaches 23 Zerglings, mass Zerglings (2 More Roaches when you can if you want)
The reason I stop at 125 instead of 75 like the standard is some Protoss get some really fast Stalkers. In this situation, I like to have 5 Roaches which is still optimal.
This build also works against Terran since the Baneling Nest only costs Minerals, the 125 gas can be used into 5 Banelings which is more than enough to destroy a Supply Depot or one of the other add-ons. I get an extra Baneling as a precaution but I've found isn't really that necessarily (it's still good at damaging a group of Marines though).
This is a cheese, obviously economically this is a poor build order for the late game but it trashes the 3 Gate like it was an older generation of Pokemon. ======================================================================== If for some reason you want to do a 2 Hatch build order, and they're sticking with the 3 Gate, Roach & Hydras are good for the mid-game, but then you'll need Infestors to deal with Archons/Colossi or High Templars.
If they aren't good at timing pushes, then Mass Roaches is viable. However, I do recommend that you still get the Roaches with Tunneling Claws in order to avoid Force Fields, move back or forward (depending on the army size) allowing your Hydralisks to still pump out optimal damage. Zergling mixes are always good too.
Since High Templars are hard to Neural Parasite, I recommend placing strategic Fungal Growths so that your main army can hit and run.
Last edit: 2011-06-01 14:25:54
The Baneling is a Zergling with it's fart gases so dense they're an acidic liquid.
@above: who the hell opens 13pool/12extractor against Protoss? Do you enjoy playing with a handicap? And the OP asked for 2base timings, not 1base.
@OP:
I often use a heavy two-base Roach/Ling attack against Protoss Sentry expand. However, I wouldn't exactly call it an all-in. Since you attack when you generally have around 34 drones, even if the attack doesn't kill the expo (but does kill almost all the sentry's), you're still in a reasonable position to continue the game.
But I to would like to see exact BO's since I just wing it atm.
Havefa1th United States. June 01 2011 16:58. Posts 240
On June 01 2011 16:43 Kraelog wrote: But I to would like to see exact BO's since I just wing it atm.
Ditto. I push with about 14 roaches, un upgraded and about 25 lings off 2 bases with about 30-35 drones at 8:30 minutes.
Is there an exact build order to this? I just play it by ear, there's maybe 2 stalkers in the protoss army and that's not enough to deal with the roaches. I don't know, maybe mine isn't optimal or anything but it works.
"Apparently I just needed to play the way I did... and realize he killed his own command center." - Idra
apalemorning Canada. June 01 2011 17:09. Posts 508
15gas/15pool ling, hatch down one drone on gas speed at 5 mins roach warren at 5:40 2 ovie 4 drone drone til 34 8 roaches when warren is done lings rally more lings if you can break it, if not drone take 3rd evo chamber +lair
this is the common, 7 min timing push losira does.
theres an idra roach ling all in, but thats only 21 drones, and completely all in. with this, if you dont kill him, you can just expand with a 3rd, you'll have later tech but if you did enough damage, he really can't do anything.
I've been doing a very Losira-alike build on ladder vs protoss with huge success lately.
The build is basically like this: 15 pool 16 hatch (if it gets pylon blocked, wait for pool to complete and kill it with lings) 17 overlord 17 gas (put two drones on gas) 16 queen 18 4 lings (kill pylon and scout. This build is autolose to DT rush if youre not prepared. It also suffers heavily from air builds if youre unprepared.)
If you didn't get pylon blocked, make your second queen at your natural and waddle your first queen down after its first inject. If you did get pylon bloced, make the second queen at your main, poop out a creep tumor and waddle it down to the nat.
From here, just pump pure drones until you're at 36 supply.
Start ling speed @100 gas, and put one more drone at gas. Throw down your roach warren around 30 supply.
When you're at 36 supply, you should have around 30 drones, 2 queens and maybe some lings and be above 100 gas. From here, make 3 overlords, and once they pop, make 6+ roaches and rally them to your opponents natural. Pull two drones from gas, and pump more speedlings (and maybe som more roaches) to reinforce.
This push will almost certainly do some damage, if not outright win you the game. It is however NOT an all-in, as you can safely expand while pushing and from then tech to whatever you desire.
GLHF
Angueo Korea (South). June 01 2011 19:18. Posts 53
@above: who the hell opens 13pool/12extractor against Protoss? Do you enjoy playing with a handicap? And the OP asked for 2base timings, not 1base.
Calm down there buddy. First off, read the rest of my post. It has a 2 base timing build in there. Also, the build is originally called the 3 Roach Rush. There are quite a few people who have uploaded their videos of the 3 Roach Rush, and it is a decent build:
(he forgets to take his Drones off gas, but still works) (slightly different build order)
Is that enough for you, or should I go get a replay of me doing it and upload it for your viewing pleasure?
With that said, I would like to direct you to my signature.
Last edit: 2011-06-01 19:20:10
The Baneling is a Zergling with it's fart gases so dense they're an acidic liquid.
@above: who the hell opens 13pool/12extractor against Protoss? Do you enjoy playing with a handicap? And the OP asked for 2base timings, not 1base.
Calm down there buddy. First off, read the rest of my post. It has a 2 base timing build in there. Also, the build is originally called the 3 Roach Rush. There are quite a few people who have uploaded their videos of the 3 Roach Rush, and it is a decent build:
(he forgets to take his Drones off gas, but still works) (slightly different build order)
Is that enough for you, or should I go get a replay of me doing it and upload it for your viewing pleasure?
With that said, I would like to direct you to my signature.
To quote the OP, he's looking for:
two-base roach-ling aggression against protoss 3 gate (or now sometimes 2 gate) sentry expands
Which nothing in your post helps. The common roach ling aggression comes before lairs, infestors, hydras, roach speed, etc. It comes with a lot of drones and a good economy and a good opportunity for late game. So stop recommending things that aren't relevant.
With that said, I would like to direct YOU to your signature.
Last edit: 2011-06-02 10:09:26
"Apparently I just needed to play the way I did... and realize he killed his own command center." - Idra
Angueo Korea (South). June 02 2011 11:42. Posts 53
To quote myself again, I gave a 2-base build as well on my first post.
So if you could, read my first post again, instead of just reading one with the nice pretty graphics in it this time. So sadly again, my signature please.
The Baneling is a Zergling with it's fart gases so dense they're an acidic liquid.
Havefa1th United States. June 02 2011 11:46. Posts 240
To quote myself again, I gave a 2-base build as well on my first post.
So if you could, read my first post again, instead of just reading one with the nice pretty graphics in it this time. So sadly again, my signature please.
The common roach ling aggression comes before lairs, infestors, hydras, roach speed, etc. It comes with a lot of drones and a good economy and a good opportunity for late game. So stop recommending things that aren't relevant.
I can go on like this for days.
"Apparently I just needed to play the way I did... and realize he killed his own command center." - Idra
Angueo Korea (South). June 02 2011 14:46. Posts 53
I have copied Idras builds from MLG, I have two good roach ling allins that I will share for you guys
ONEBASE This one is balls to the walls allin, you probably wont come back if it doesn't work.
14 - Extractor 14 - Spawning Pool 15 - Overlord Pool 100% - Queen + 4 zerglings 20 - Hatchery 21 - overlord 21 - roach warren 20 - overlord 20 - overlord IMPORTANT Cancel the hatchery once it's close to complete, you will need this additional money to make the roaches. Roach Warren 100% - 8 roaches, go immidently to his base Pull guys off gas (u are supposed to gather 300 gas total in this build, 100 for lingspeed and 200 for the 8 roaches) Now just spam lings and hope for a break!
TWOBASE This is the twobase version that gives you a bigger chance to come back into the game if it doesn't work, you need to do significant damage with this.
14 - Spawning pool 16 - Hatchery 15 - Overlord Pool 100% 15 Queen 17 Zerglings 18 Zerglings 19 Extractor 2nd queen in main Drones to 28 supply 28 overlord 28 overlord 28 roach warren roach warren 100% make 8 roaches pull off gas mass lings baby, you want to have 12 drones per hatchery, according to a post I saw on TL that's the exact number of drones you need to go mass lings off 2 base, never miss an inject nor overlord from here on out.
Have fun.
Loose and Learn
Lobotomist United States. June 07 2011 11:17. Posts 1259
The thing about the 2-base roach/ling is that it can work off of pretty much any standard zerg opener, there isn't a set build.
If you go for fast ling speed, you get to deny scouting with speedlings, which can result in your opponent being a bit more off-guard. If you go for a more eco build, you can saturate to ~24 drones a tiny bit faster, so you've got an advantage there. If you open ling speed, you'll want to pull your drones off gas for a little bit while you get your natural hatch and your drones up. If you open hatch first or pool-hatch you may not need to pull drones off gas until you've got ling speed and ~200 banked for roaches. I find this to be definitely true for pool - hatch openers, which generally have the slowest gas. Remember to inject, don't miss overlords and don't get too many drones. The earlier you hit the better, if you're trying to out-right win that is.
Teching to hive too quickly isn't just a risk: it's an ultrarisk
I didn't know people actually developed this into a specific build but I think just start the roach warrant at about the the time to defend a slower 4 gate and just pump about 8-12 roaches and mass speedlings off 2 bases with 1 gas will do.
The timing window is gigantic and different for different styles of 3 gate expand and a lot different on different maps.
basically any time before 10 mins you will do massive damage if protoss don't have a good enough ff and placements. after that the nexus kicks in and you will be outmatched. It doesn't actually punish the greedy expand but rather takes advantage of the weakness of any expand to hit a timing attack.
if you want to punish a greedy expand go with ~15 speedlings at about 6 mins and you will always force a cancel.
the timing for this build depends only mostly on your early game macro as long as you get speed and a roach warrant and no lair or more gas.
"The lie is just a great story ruined by the truth."
I know this hasn't been bumped for a while but I have the same question @ deflow that 2nd timing looks like exactly what I want to do but how long should somebody send in ling reinforcements.
@ the people saying to hit at 8:30 with 8 roaches and slings and 34 drones, that never works if the player is competant and has a decent number of sentries.
"Somewhere, Something incredible is waiting to be known." -Carl Sagan
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apalemorning Canada. June 01 2011 17:09. Posts 508
