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I've lost 5 ZvP's on Tal Darim. Every game goes a similar way:
1) Protoss scouts my position.
2) Protoss blocks my expansion. There are several ways of doing this. Walling off my choke with 3 pylons and making a cannon. Putting a pylon followed by a core on my natural. Hiding a pylon over the cliff and cannon rushing. Whatever the method, they can simply deny your natural expansion.
3) They expand and wall in. Now you are 1base Zerg to 2base Protoss. What now?
I've tried everything. Nydus doesn't work against good opponents. They place pylons everywhere and probes are enough to stop it. Roach/ling all in doesn't work. They just make a few cannons at their front. Trying to late expand or even double-expand doesn't work, because they just hit you with a 6gate attack before your macro can even kick in, or they make a void ray to deny your third base.
I just have no idea what to do anymore, and I'm hoping TL has some feedback. I'm literally getting outmacroed by protoss and I can't see any way of stopping it.
I know I'm required to post a replay, so here it is. I kinda hate posting replays because then people focus on the specifics of the game instead of the general problem I've been having. They will tell me to scout with a drone around the cliff and prevent the cannon. Classic hindsight. Even then who knows what happens? Protoss spams another pylon and two cannons and next thing I know I've got my entire worker line running outside of my natural trying to kill 3 things at once? I figured the best option, since he was investing in cannons and pylons at my nat, and already had his nexus built, was to cancel the hatch at 90% and roach/speedling all in his main. He had 4 cannons done by the time I got there.
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Are you going hatchery first or spawning pool first? I know it's a huge map so hatchery first seems viable, but I'd encourage you to go pool first so that you can kill the pylon blocking your hatchery.
One of the issues with the current iteration of Tal'Darim Altar is the rocks at the third base. In BW if protoss manner pylon'd your natural expansion, you would take the third base on most maps, but this is not viable on the current Tal'Darim.
I don't have cannon rushes occurring much on that map, but I can also see that being a problem. I have noticed pylon blocks at the bottom of ramps coming back though, so maybe it's time to bring back the patrolling drone that used to be so prevalent.
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On June 03 2011 04:06 Boundless wrote: Are you going hatchery first or spawning pool first? I know it's a huge map so hatchery first seems viable, but I'd encourage you to go pool first so that you can kill the pylon blocking your hatchery.
One of the issues with the current iteration of Tal'Darim Altar is the rocks at the third base. In BW if protoss manner pylon'd your natural expansion, you would take the third base on most maps, but this is not viable on the current Tal'Darim.
I don't have cannon rushes occurring much on that map, but I can also see that being a problem. cannons dont really care about spawning positions and as every toss goes forge first on tal'darim, you better be good at defending cannon rushing
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On June 03 2011 04:06 Boundless wrote: Are you going hatchery first or spawning pool first? I know it's a huge map so hatchery first seems viable, but I'd encourage you to go pool first so that you can kill the pylon blocking your hatchery.
One of the issues with the current iteration of Tal'Darim Altar is the rocks at the third base. In BW if protoss manner pylon'd your natural expansion, you would take the third base on most maps, but this is not viable on the current Tal'Darim.
I don't have cannon rushes occurring much on that map, but I can also see that being a problem.
Yes, I'm going pool first because cannon rushes are pretty much impossible to stop with hatch first. Even with lings, it takes forever to clear your nat if your opponent goes for a second pylon or cyber core. Their expo will be maybe half done before you even start yours, and there's no easy third to take either.
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Calgary25938 Posts
I sense a lot of objectivity in this post. First off, #1 is absurd. Second of all, #2 is also absurd. Who is blocking your natural with a cybernetics core? How are you allowing yourself to be Pylon-walled in on Tal-Darim?
And then you end with "Please don't post anything dumb"...
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On June 03 2011 04:09 Chill wrote: I sense a lot of objectivity in this post. First off, #1 is absurd. Second of all, #2 is also absurd. Who is blocking your natural with a cybernetics core? How are you allowing yourself to be Pylon-walled in on Tal-Darim?
And then you end with "Please don't post anything dumb"...
Yea #1 is abusrd, but #2 is valid.
Blocking the nat with a cy core is not a bad tactic. If a zerg player lets the pylon that's blocking the nat finish, the protoss just makes a cy core there to further delay the zerg player from expanding. A cy core has 50 health/shields more than a gateway, and takes a while to build and take down. Then the protoss just cancels right before completion (or if the zerg gets enough lings to bring it down).
It takes 3 pylons to be pylon-walled on tal-darim, just like any other ramped map.
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On June 03 2011 04:09 Chill wrote: I sense a lot of objectivity in this post. First off, #1 is absurd. Second of all, #2 is also absurd. Who is blocking your natural with a cybernetics core? How are you allowing yourself to be Pylon-walled in on Tal-Darim?
And then you end with "Please don't post anything dumb"...
Blocking with a cyber core isn't all that uncommon... Plus with KiWiKaKi doing it in IPL finals I can imagine a lot of lower level players imitating him.
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to beat cannon rushes with hatch first you need to devote around 7 drones. the goal is to chase the probe around constantly and making sure the cannon placement is such that 3 drones can hit a cannon as it starts warping. even sacrificing those 7 drone's mining time, after a failed cannon rush you will be in a big lead.
your overlord should not be over the expo, but it should instead be closer to the ramp, so you can see when the probe comes in earlier. on tal darim you can pylon the back of the expo and cannon behind the min line and that is quite dangerous, so you have to be aware of it.
if the probe scouts you first, well, sorry :[ you will have to throw down the pool before the hatch. there is no real way around this. just accept it and move on, it doesnt put you as far behind as you would think.
for later in the game mutas happen to be quite strong agasint protoss on this map. the architecture is such that you can deny or harass his 3rd and switch over to the main, or vice versa. the natural min line is also a very vulnerable target. if he is just making a big ball of stalkers to beat your mutas you can even pump more muta, but if he switches to archons or phoenix youll need to go back into roaches. just play an aggressive game with around 60-65 drones for a while, and try to punish the 3rd constantly. trying to out macro a protoss on tal darim is not a good idea because the ease for him to take his 3rd if you do that. if the game goes on longer the 4th isnt particularly difficult to defend either.
you can follow up with roach/ling drops into the main/nat as well as pressure on the 3rd with your standing army. but you have to be active, as always is the case nowadays with zerg. always be active would be my best advice.
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Calgary25938 Posts
On June 03 2011 04:12 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 04:09 Chill wrote: I sense a lot of objectivity in this post. First off, #1 is absurd. Second of all, #2 is also absurd. Who is blocking your natural with a cybernetics core? How are you allowing yourself to be Pylon-walled in on Tal-Darim?
And then you end with "Please don't post anything dumb"... Yea #1 is abusrd, but #2 is valid. Blocking the nat with a cy core is not a bad tactic. If a zerg player lets the pylon that's blocking the nat finish, the protoss just makes a cy core there to further delay the zerg player from expanding. A cy core has 50 health/shields more than a gateway, and takes a while to build and take down. Then the protoss just cancels right before completion (or if the zerg gets enough lings to bring it down). I refuse to believe that standard play of making a Pool after being your natural blocked affords Protoss the chance to make a Core at your natural, while expanding, while not dying to your counter attack. The OP's argument is that the Cyber Core is putting him 50% behind in expansions compared to Protoss, which I find a wild exaggeration. I'm not saying Cyber Core at your natural isn't valid, I'm saying Protoss can't do that while expanding way before you, while living.
It takes 3 pylons to be pylon-walled on tal-darim, just like any other ramped map. Right, but the Pylons aren't blocked a small choke with minimal surface area, they're in a line and can be easily broken.
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blocking with a cyber core isnt uncommon but its not common either. if they block with a cyber core just take ur third as your natural. maybe double expand once you kill the cyber core.
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On June 03 2011 04:09 Chill wrote: I sense a lot of objectivity in this post. First off, #1 is absurd. Second of all, #2 is also absurd. Who is blocking your natural with a cybernetics core? How are you allowing yourself to be Pylon-walled in on Tal-Darim?
And then you end with "Please don't post anything dumb"... What's absurd? I wasn't lying or making up the 100% thing. Sure, it's only been like 6 games in a row.
And how is #2 absurd? You've never seen people core block or wall in a choke? It happens all the time. How should I prevent that?
If you think what I posted is dumb then please close it, instead of coming in here offering nothing helpful and calling it dumb.
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Calgary25938 Posts
On June 03 2011 04:16 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 04:09 Chill wrote: I sense a lot of objectivity in this post. First off, #1 is absurd. Second of all, #2 is also absurd. Who is blocking your natural with a cybernetics core? How are you allowing yourself to be Pylon-walled in on Tal-Darim?
And then you end with "Please don't post anything dumb"... What's absurd? I wasn't lying or making up the 100% thing. Sure, it's only been like 6 games in a row. And how is #2 absurd? You've never seen people core block or wall in a choke? It happens all the time. How should I prevent that? If you think what I posted is dumb then please close it, instead of coming in here offering nothing helpful and calling it dumb. Send a Drone to follow the Probe.
I guess my problem with this thread is the exaggeration. Every game he's scouting you first and blocking your natural / Cannoning you? And every game it's successful? I mean sure, it works on everyone once in awhile, but if you're actively watching his Probe he shouldn't be able to block you every time. If he's blocking your expansion with a Cybernetics Core and getting an expansion up 50% quicker than you, that means he's somehow gone Pylon Gateway Nexus Core while still living. It just doesn't seem possible.
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On June 03 2011 04:18 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 04:16 jdseemoreglass wrote:On June 03 2011 04:09 Chill wrote: I sense a lot of objectivity in this post. First off, #1 is absurd. Second of all, #2 is also absurd. Who is blocking your natural with a cybernetics core? How are you allowing yourself to be Pylon-walled in on Tal-Darim?
And then you end with "Please don't post anything dumb"... What's absurd? I wasn't lying or making up the 100% thing. Sure, it's only been like 6 games in a row. And how is #2 absurd? You've never seen people core block or wall in a choke? It happens all the time. How should I prevent that? If you think what I posted is dumb then please close it, instead of coming in here offering nothing helpful and calling it dumb. Send a Drone to follow the Probe. What if he keeps the probe out of vision? It's not hard to glance at the creep and turn around. In fact, my opponent did just that in the replay.
If you think the "pylon wall in" is counterable, fine. What about the rest of my post?
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On June 03 2011 04:16 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 04:12 Anihc wrote:On June 03 2011 04:09 Chill wrote: I sense a lot of objectivity in this post. First off, #1 is absurd. Second of all, #2 is also absurd. Who is blocking your natural with a cybernetics core? How are you allowing yourself to be Pylon-walled in on Tal-Darim?
And then you end with "Please don't post anything dumb"... Yea #1 is abusrd, but #2 is valid. Blocking the nat with a cy core is not a bad tactic. If a zerg player lets the pylon that's blocking the nat finish, the protoss just makes a cy core there to further delay the zerg player from expanding. A cy core has 50 health/shields more than a gateway, and takes a while to build and take down. Then the protoss just cancels right before completion (or if the zerg gets enough lings to bring it down). I refuse to believe that standard play of making a Pool after being your natural blocked affords Protoss the chance to make a Core at your natural, while expanding, while not dying to your counter attack. The OP's argument is that the Cyber Core is putting him 50% behind in expansions compared to Protoss, which I find a wild exaggeration. I'm not saying Cyber Core at your natural isn't valid, I'm saying Protoss can't do that while expanding way before you, while living. Show nested quote +It takes 3 pylons to be pylon-walled on tal-darim, just like any other ramped map. Right, but the Pylons aren't blocked a small choke with minimal surface area, they're in a line and can be easily broken.
In some cases depending on the build you do the cy core just works out... but for the most part a gateway block is a lot more feasible and pretty much just as effective.
And as far as a pylon wall on tal darim being easily broken, yes it's weaker but it still takes drones forever to kill pylons. Definitely not "easily" broken, plus you can keep adding to the wall behind it.
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In some cases depending on the build you do the cy core just works out... but for the most part a gateway block is a lot more feasible and pretty much just as effective.
im confused why would you get a gateway over a cyber core? they're the same price ad cyber core has more health. what is the advantage of a gateway?
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Calgary25938 Posts
On June 03 2011 04:21 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 04:16 Chill wrote:On June 03 2011 04:12 Anihc wrote:On June 03 2011 04:09 Chill wrote: I sense a lot of objectivity in this post. First off, #1 is absurd. Second of all, #2 is also absurd. Who is blocking your natural with a cybernetics core? How are you allowing yourself to be Pylon-walled in on Tal-Darim?
And then you end with "Please don't post anything dumb"... Yea #1 is abusrd, but #2 is valid. Blocking the nat with a cy core is not a bad tactic. If a zerg player lets the pylon that's blocking the nat finish, the protoss just makes a cy core there to further delay the zerg player from expanding. A cy core has 50 health/shields more than a gateway, and takes a while to build and take down. Then the protoss just cancels right before completion (or if the zerg gets enough lings to bring it down). I refuse to believe that standard play of making a Pool after being your natural blocked affords Protoss the chance to make a Core at your natural, while expanding, while not dying to your counter attack. The OP's argument is that the Cyber Core is putting him 50% behind in expansions compared to Protoss, which I find a wild exaggeration. I'm not saying Cyber Core at your natural isn't valid, I'm saying Protoss can't do that while expanding way before you, while living. It takes 3 pylons to be pylon-walled on tal-darim, just like any other ramped map. Right, but the Pylons aren't blocked a small choke with minimal surface area, they're in a line and can be easily broken. In some cases depending on the build you do the cy core just works out... but for the most part a gateway block is a lot more feasible and pretty much just as effective. And as far as a pylon wall on tal darim being easily broken, yes it's weaker but it still takes drones forever to kill pylons. Definitely not "easily" broken, plus you can keep adding to the wall behind it. Of course Drones can't easily break it, but Queens can hit it and Roaches will take little damage breaking it, as opposed to traditional maps.
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On June 03 2011 04:23 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 04:21 Anihc wrote:On June 03 2011 04:16 Chill wrote:On June 03 2011 04:12 Anihc wrote:On June 03 2011 04:09 Chill wrote: I sense a lot of objectivity in this post. First off, #1 is absurd. Second of all, #2 is also absurd. Who is blocking your natural with a cybernetics core? How are you allowing yourself to be Pylon-walled in on Tal-Darim?
And then you end with "Please don't post anything dumb"... Yea #1 is abusrd, but #2 is valid. Blocking the nat with a cy core is not a bad tactic. If a zerg player lets the pylon that's blocking the nat finish, the protoss just makes a cy core there to further delay the zerg player from expanding. A cy core has 50 health/shields more than a gateway, and takes a while to build and take down. Then the protoss just cancels right before completion (or if the zerg gets enough lings to bring it down). I refuse to believe that standard play of making a Pool after being your natural blocked affords Protoss the chance to make a Core at your natural, while expanding, while not dying to your counter attack. The OP's argument is that the Cyber Core is putting him 50% behind in expansions compared to Protoss, which I find a wild exaggeration. I'm not saying Cyber Core at your natural isn't valid, I'm saying Protoss can't do that while expanding way before you, while living. It takes 3 pylons to be pylon-walled on tal-darim, just like any other ramped map. Right, but the Pylons aren't blocked a small choke with minimal surface area, they're in a line and can be easily broken. In some cases depending on the build you do the cy core just works out... but for the most part a gateway block is a lot more feasible and pretty much just as effective. And as far as a pylon wall on tal darim being easily broken, yes it's weaker but it still takes drones forever to kill pylons. Definitely not "easily" broken, plus you can keep adding to the wall behind it. Of course Drones can't easily break it, but Queens can hit it and Roaches will take little damage breaking it, as opposed to traditional maps. The problem is still the same then... I get 1base roaches, break the wall, and now it's 1base zerg to 2base protoss, with no solid way to transition to a win.
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Take your 4th base (not the third with rocks) if you dont want to wait for 2 lings to kill the pylon.
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Ok to actually answer the OP:
To stop any sort of pylon/cannon/nat block, you pretty much have to always go pool first, and get 4-6 lings asap. Sorry, there's just no other way around it.
Don't be afraid to take your first expansion somewhere else other than your natural. I know this is difficult on tal darim, but it's still viable. When dealing with 2 base 6 gate after you double expanded, keep in mind that just because you have 3 bases doesn't mean you need to saturate all 3 bases. Investing in an expansion is not all or nothing - you can "partially" invest in an expansion by just dropping the hatchery there but not necessarily getting more drones immediately to use it. Then just pump units as normal to defend 6 gate, and then when the danger is over you can easily pump drones very fast and catch up/surpass the protoss in economy due to larva mechanics.
Double expanding is a pretty standard response to forge FE and its all a matter of good scouting (ovie sac or fast overseer scout) and not being too greedy/overdroning.
Another suggestion is to get ~8 speedlings pretty fast just to deny scouting. This will force the toss to invest in additional cannons early on, slowing him down.
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Calgary25938 Posts
I disagree with having to go pool first and get lings ASAP. You can send your second overlord to your natural and actively chase the probe with your drones. If you're extremely scared of being walled in, you can easily meet the probe with a drone as soon as you see it entering your vision. You make it sound like hatch-first is a coinflip against any kind of early buildings and I just don't believe that's true.
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