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I was thinking about a way of reducing coinflips in ZvT. When the terran is walling of his ramp, hiding a second Rax in his base and going for a marine + SCV with bunker pressure you have two ways to react as zerg: - Building alot of Zerglings to be prepared for a following all in. - Keep building drones and hoping its just a fake pressure to make me overreact and putting me behind while the terran is expanding.
So the usual thing to do as zerg after an fast expand is to use your 2nd queen for an creep tumor, simply because you can't support so two larva injects in the beginning of the game. But what if you use your overproduction on larva for the ability to cancel zerglings when he is attempting a fake pressure, canceling his bunker and pulling back? The ability of the other races to just cancel unit production is a thing zergs normally can't do, because larva is way to important to cancel like 5x lings in production, but with this oversaturation on larva in the early game, maybe you could use it to be safer and reduce coinflips.
What do you think?
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It's not like the creep tumour is bad, you need creep spread anyways to defend pressure. The earlier the tumour, the more that tumour has spread over time. Also, you are better off just throwing down a safety spine than doing that cancel stuff, its not worth cancelling when you can just put down one spine which will probably equal the minerals you lose eventually.
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Well, zerglings build pretty fast, which is somewhat problematic. But the idea is sound in theory.
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On June 08 2011 10:17 Kafkaesk wrote: I was thinking about a way of reducing coinflips in ZvT. When the terran is walling of his ramp, hiding a second Rax in his base and going for a marine + SCV with bunker pressure you have two ways to react as zerg: - Building alot of Zerglings to be prepared for a following all in. - Keep building drones and hoping its just a fake pressure to make me overreact and putting me behind while the terran is expanding.
So the usual thing to do as zerg after an fast expand is to use your 2nd queen for an creep tumor, simply because you can't support so two larva injects in the beginning of the game. But what if you use your overproduction on larva for the ability to cancel zerglings when he is attempting a fake pressure, canceling his bunker and pulling back? The ability of the other races to just cancel unit production is a thing zergs normally can't do, because larva is way to important to cancel like 5x lings in production, but with this oversaturation on larva in the early game, maybe you could use it to be safer and reduce coinflips.
What do you think?
Being able to cancel just seems too wasteful as zerg that early in the game. Being able to connect your bases for queen movement is more crucial for the rest of the game.
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On June 08 2011 10:27 Demonace34 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 10:17 Kafkaesk wrote: I was thinking about a way of reducing coinflips in ZvT. When the terran is walling of his ramp, hiding a second Rax in his base and going for a marine + SCV with bunker pressure you have two ways to react as zerg: - Building alot of Zerglings to be prepared for a following all in. - Keep building drones and hoping its just a fake pressure to make me overreact and putting me behind while the terran is expanding.
So the usual thing to do as zerg after an fast expand is to use your 2nd queen for an creep tumor, simply because you can't support so two larva injects in the beginning of the game. But what if you use your overproduction on larva for the ability to cancel zerglings when he is attempting a fake pressure, canceling his bunker and pulling back? The ability of the other races to just cancel unit production is a thing zergs normally can't do, because larva is way to important to cancel like 5x lings in production, but with this oversaturation on larva in the early game, maybe you could use it to be safer and reduce coinflips.
What do you think? Being able to cancel just seems too wasteful as zerg that early in the game. Being able to connect your bases for queen movement is more crucial for the rest of the game.
Well you don't need this connecting tumor that fast. If you don't have to cancel any lings, or just can go to full drone prodction you could still use your third 25 energy for a tumor and the bases will be connected in time.
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If you plan on going pure ling you're going to want to double-inject as soon as the queens are out. I can't think of a situation where cancelling lings would be a good idea, since even with double-inject larva is scarce.
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in 3v3s creep is probably better with a fast expand...you can wall off your entrance with a evolution chamber or a roach warren and a spine crawler and defend your natural with 3 more spines
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if you have a ling outside his base you could just throw up spines and keep droning up. Throw like 2 spines up (worth 4 pairs of lings) and then throw more up when you see him coming.
for me that creep spread is so crucial, for mid game where banes can run down marines, and his tanks having to shoot down my creep before moving in.
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On June 08 2011 18:20 RimJaynor wrote: if you have a ling outside his base you could just throw up spines and keep droning up. Throw like 2 spines up (worth 4 pairs of lings) and then throw more up when you see him coming.
for me that creep spread is so crucial, for mid game where banes can run down marines, and his tanks having to shoot down my creep before moving in.
And they'll be done 30 seconds after he shows up..
First I inject larva into the hatchery then I give the ground a tumor. Thats how I roll.
Seriously, thats what I do.
No, seriously. I inject on my main and drop a tumor at the nat (1st and 2nd queen) then I drop a tumor in my main and inject at my nat. Then I get out a third queen and make a few dozen tumors.
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If I 15 hatch I drop 2 creep tumors when my queens pop, its what I found most comfortable for me I usually make atleast a spine sometimes 2 at my nat blindly.
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Personally if i scout no early aggro from the terran then i go inject > creep > inject with my first queen. But not injecting twice at the start i can get my creep spread on and theres less lavie so i can stock up some minerals to get an earlier second/third/fourth gas and tech straight to infestors with mass upgraded lings
If theres a push coming then i'll inject until it's dealt with and then spread the creep. As other have said the creep spread is really important as it gives you vision and a kick as speed boost. It's also hillarious when theres a command centre floating above an expo unable to land becasue of creep
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its a cool idea, but in my experience the crucial part where you don't know if you need drones or lings is before any inject kicks in. In fact even making 2 fast queens is a mistake against bunker rushes, as you need those minerals for lings and spines asap.
If you are talking about a later attack, e.g. a 3-4 rax marine scv allin, this would have the same impact of pooling larva and resources not committing to anything. It may give you the lings 20 seconds earlier, but its not something you can afford to do that early.
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there are 2major flaws in this, I think: -) zerglings build pretty fast, so it's hard to cancel them -) you don't get a creep tumor early, so if you want more creep you have to do it later on, which cuts into your larva production at some point, where you could actually support constant zergling/worker production.
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I do the two injects but built only some Ovie and few lings for scouting. If i scout one base push incoming, i build lings from the stockpiled larvae, else i build drones from them. As long i am not sure what the T is doing, i keep stockpiling larvae, mins and supply, and slowly add some drones carefully (basically just keep up with one base scv production). If i smell banshees, i build an evo + 3rd/4th queen, and build drones from the minerals left. This stragetegy works pretty well, as you delay your commitment, but keep all options. If i scout the terran expanding, ofc build drones from your stockpiled stuff.
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On June 08 2011 21:27 Sated wrote: Even if the terran doesn't attack, I've never understood why zerg players think that dropping 2-3 spine-crawlers early on is such a massive loss. You will get use out of them eventually, whether it is to defend drops (you can move them to your mineral lines once you're out of the early game), aid defence at the front or secure expansions. It frees up larva for drones because you don't need to make any zerglings/as many zerglings too. Is the 2-300 mineral cost really that big an issue if it's going to keep you from dying? Zerg units are so cheap and cost-effective when used well that I don't see the big deal.
I'd much rather face a zerg who is scared to drop spine-crawlers early than face one who takes a small eco-hit in order to ensure that my scouts and pokes have no chance of seeing anything/doing any damage.
this is a *huge* loss. 3 crawlers = 3 drones + 450 mins. Thats and expansion with 5 drones mining
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You can easily support 2 injects at the start if you just make zerglings and drones. Canceling zerglings that are morphing will give you extra money that you wont be able to spend, and will automatically put you behind in economy. If he is faking pressure, it almost surely means that he is expanding behind it, so losing econ would be a very bad idea.
That being said, if you want to throw down a creep tumor off your first queen, I suggest that you build a spine crawler, roach warren, baneling nest or third queen so that you can have all of your money spent. Having any of these buildings/unit will help a TON in holding off any pressure. 1 spine crawler can DESTROY marines. A baneling nest or roach warren will allow you to hold off any marine/scv all in, and a 3rd queen will help creep spread which is also essential in holding off unscoutable aggression.
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@OP: All you have to do is scout, just don't leave your scouts on the shortest route to your base because they usually get killed, but have it somewhere close. If they move out with scvs you have enough time to know to make zerglings, but you don't want the scout you have to be too close to your base, else its really hard to react. Also you also don't want to be too close to their base because they can pull back without losing much(if they decide to pull a bunch of scvs)
@Schnuller dropping spine crawlers are a loss, but it allows you to produce less lings, if you can plant them near the choke or in a good position so it isn't as bad, and it also allows spines to fight off bunkers with marines. Also the spine (7) can out range marines (5+1) inside a bunker, so it really isn't a waste.
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On June 08 2011 21:53 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 21:27 Sated wrote: Even if the terran doesn't attack, I've never understood why zerg players think that dropping 2-3 spine-crawlers early on is such a massive loss. You will get use out of them eventually, whether it is to defend drops (you can move them to your mineral lines once you're out of the early game), aid defence at the front or secure expansions. It frees up larva for drones because you don't need to make any zerglings/as many zerglings too. Is the 2-300 mineral cost really that big an issue if it's going to keep you from dying? Zerg units are so cheap and cost-effective when used well that I don't see the big deal.
I'd much rather face a zerg who is scared to drop spine-crawlers early than face one who takes a small eco-hit in order to ensure that my scouts and pokes have no chance of seeing anything/doing any damage. this is a *huge* loss. 3 crawlers = 3 drones + 450 mins. Thats and expansion with 5 drones mining
It's not as huge are you are making it out to be, since the zergling cost to defend the same is higher (since you "lose" more drones from spending larva on not-drones). Yeah, if the terran player doesn't attack you at all you "lose" the money because it never served a purpose but under what circumstance is a Zerg behind when a terran doesn't attack? If he chooses passivity you will out macro him so heavily in the later stages of the game it won't even matter (pending huge mistakes from the zerg player of course)
Note: If you've teched past zerglings by the time the push comes this argument becomes moot since this is regarding very early game aggression
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Are you even scouting? Send a drone and check for his 2rax opener. Pull 6-8 drones to chase the initial marines away, make spawning lings take out the building scv/bunker.
2rax isn't impossible to defend, and it is NOT a coin flip. It can be hard if the terran has good micro and you're in a map with nooks (top spawn position on XNC), but you should still be able to fend it off.
Just getting one spine crawler shuts down a lot of bunker play, assuming you're positioning your queens and lings to prevent the marines from sniping it during root time.
As for people who are talking about baneling nest or roach warren, if you have either of those finished when a 2rax comes, the terran must be literally going afk to get a cup of water, then come back to resume playing. There is NO way you have roaches or banelings out by the time the 2rax reaches your natural expansion.
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