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| Yaotzin South Africa. June 13 2011 07:20. Posts 4250 | Profile # |
On June 13 2011 07:06 Severedevil wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 13 2011 06:58 Ubes wrote:
Too many people want SC1 part 2. This is SC2 a different game.
If SC2 wants to ride on Starcraft's competitive success, it can't fling 'different game' at every critique.
This doesn't even make sense. SC2 might gain some early sales due to BW, but long term - as with any sequel - it survives or falls on its own. It's long past the point of riding on BW's success. |
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| Doc Daneeka United States. June 13 2011 07:23. Posts 529 | Profile # |
On June 13 2011 07:20 Yaotzin wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 13 2011 07:06 Severedevil wrote:
On June 13 2011 06:58 Ubes wrote:
Too many people want SC1 part 2. This is SC2 a different game.
If SC2 wants to ride on Starcraft's competitive success, it can't fling 'different game' at every critique.
This doesn't even make sense. SC2 might gain some early sales due to BW, but long term - as with any sequel - it survives or falls on its own. It's long past the point of riding on BW's success.
especially considering the amount of flak it catches from the BW community, it's possible SC2 actually suffers from that association. |
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| BadgerBadger8264 Netherlands. June 13 2011 07:24. Posts 389 | Profile # |
| People overidealise BW while completely failing to realise starcraft 1 had terrible balance when it was first released; think the beginning of starcraft 2 and multiply it by a 1000. The reason it turned into what BW is now is because of blizzards hard work and dedication over more than 10 years, yet the same people are so quick to dismiss the balance in starcraft 2 after less than a year and before any expansion has been released. Seriously, people, rome wasn't build in a day; SC:BW sure as hell wasn't balanced/super awesome at the start and neither is SC2, but if you think blizzard will suddenly give up on SC2 (like they've never done on any of their games, there is no reason at all to think that) you're just wrong. The main thing that sucks from the transition from SC1 to SC2 is the people; everyone has turned into whiny, demanding and over-entitled people. You are what's wrong with SC2. Last edit: 2011-06-13 07:27:23 |
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| Nayl Canada. June 13 2011 07:39. Posts 412 | Profile # |
On June 13 2011 07:24 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:
People overidealise BW while completely failing to realise starcraft 1 had terrible balance when it was first released; think the beginning of starcraft 2 and multiply it by a 1000. The reason it turned into what BW is now is because of blizzards hard work and dedication over more than 10 years, yet the same people are so quick to dismiss the balance in starcraft 2 after less than a year and before any expansion has been released. Seriously, people, rome wasn't build in a day; SC:BW sure as hell wasn't balanced/super awesome at the start and neither is SC2, but if you think blizzard will suddenly give up on SC2 (like they've never done on any of their games, there is no reason at all to think that) you're just wrong. The main thing that sucks from the transition from SC1 to SC2 is the people; everyone has turned into whiny, demanding and over-entitled people. You are what's wrong with SC2.
Sorry? Blizzard didn't make ANY balance patch on SC1 for 10 years. 1.08 being the very last balance patch. They indeed neglected BW completely afterwards, letting hackers run rampant so the community had to find a solution by creating its own ladders and maps.
BW was balanced and carried on through the community, NOT blizzard. |
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| Karthane United States. June 13 2011 07:46. Posts 1172 | Profile # |
In regards to people saying the roach and marauder are uninteresting, i see how that may be true but every single unit in the game doesn't have to do some cool thing or some interesting spell. The races need that core "meaty" unit that can deal decent damage and be the brunt of their army.
I think the main problem obviously lies within the collosus. The unit itself is pretty uninteresting, but because of how powerful it is, it forces units that are made to counter it, intern creating more uninteresting units.
The corruptor, in my opinion, is flat out the worst unit in the game. It's only really good against the collosus and phoenix. It fails against void rays and is essentially useless there are collosi. Blizzard just needs to take a good hard look at the collosus and the units that revolve around it's purpose, and go back to the drawing board. |
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| Arco United States. June 13 2011 07:48. Posts 1935 | Profile # |
On June 13 2011 07:39 Nayl wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 13 2011 07:24 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:
People overidealise BW while completely failing to realise starcraft 1 had terrible balance when it was first released; think the beginning of starcraft 2 and multiply it by a 1000. The reason it turned into what BW is now is because of blizzards hard work and dedication over more than 10 years, yet the same people are so quick to dismiss the balance in starcraft 2 after less than a year and before any expansion has been released. Seriously, people, rome wasn't build in a day; SC:BW sure as hell wasn't balanced/super awesome at the start and neither is SC2, but if you think blizzard will suddenly give up on SC2 (like they've never done on any of their games, there is no reason at all to think that) you're just wrong. The main thing that sucks from the transition from SC1 to SC2 is the people; everyone has turned into whiny, demanding and over-entitled people. You are what's wrong with SC2.
Sorry? Blizzard didn't make ANY balance patch on SC1 for 10 years. 1.08 being the very last balance patch. They indeed neglected BW completely afterwards, letting hackers run rampant so the community had to find a solution by creating its own ladders and maps. BW was balanced and carried on through the community, NOT blizzard.
This is true. Too bad the community has barely any say on the map pool (except for Taldarim Altar, a map that was made imbalanced by Blizzard's modifying of it for ladder play)
Not to say that this is SC2s only problem, but one of many. |
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| DyEnasTy United States. June 13 2011 07:48. Posts 3421 | Profile Blog # |
On June 13 2011 06:38 IPA wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 13 2011 06:29 DyEnasTy wrote:
On June 13 2011 05:55 IamBach wrote:I am just happy I gave up on SC2 long, long ago.  Now I only have to look on and congratulate myself for playing BW.
 yes my friend.
And you're posting in a SC2 thread...why? Speaks volumes.
I still watch SC2, care very much about all the foreigners and their careers, but I stopped playing for a couple reasons (not balance issues)
1) I used to have 3 of my cousins and about 4 or 5 friends come over, have pizza, soda and beer and we'd play hours of BW.
Cant do that now cause A) no lan B) most of my friends computers dont have the system requirements for SC2 and cant blame them for not wanting to buy a new comp just for casual SC2 gaming.
2) the friends who did play SC2 have all stopped for one reason or another. Whether its because they are bored with the game, or are upset that they cant enjoy it with their friends who cant play for reasons listed above.
So I just dont have the time for BW with friends, work, wife, Halo Reach (on occasion with friends) and SC2. I like gaming with my friends, so if im to sacrifice something its SC2.
edit: and im congratulating him on playing BW.... for all the good times it provided.Last edit: 2011-06-13 07:50:23 |
| | Much better to die an awesome Terran than to live as a magic wielding fairy or a mindless sac of biological goop. -Manifesto7 |  |
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| Stratos_speAr United States. June 13 2011 07:50. Posts 3725 | Profile # |
On June 13 2011 07:24 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:
People overidealise BW while completely failing to realise starcraft 1 had terrible balance when it was first released; think the beginning of starcraft 2 and multiply it by a 1000. The reason it turned into what BW is now is because of blizzards hard work and dedication over more than 10 years, yet the same people are so quick to dismiss the balance in starcraft 2 after less than a year and before any expansion has been released. Seriously, people, rome wasn't build in a day; SC:BW sure as hell wasn't balanced/super awesome at the start and neither is SC2, but if you think blizzard will suddenly give up on SC2 (like they've never done on any of their games, there is no reason at all to think that) you're just wrong. The main thing that sucks from the transition from SC1 to SC2 is the people; everyone has turned into whiny, demanding and over-entitled people. You are what's wrong with SC2.
This is an old argument and a really bad one. We have gained significantly more knowledge from when BW first came out - this means that SC2 definitely shouldn't take anywhere near the amount of time it took BW to balance out (BW's last balance patch came out 3 years after it was released, so no it wasn't even close to 10 years). There are a number of things that are very easy to take away from BW now that we have that experience, and the complaints are that the development team is simply ignoring what made BW the best e-sport in the world and just shouting "It's a different game!" at anyone who critiques them for it.Last edit: 2011-06-13 07:53:05 |
| | A sound mind in a sound body, is a short, but full description of a happy state in this World: he that has these two, has little more to wish for; and he that wants either of them, will be little the better for anything else. |  |
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| SaYyId Portugal. June 13 2011 07:50. Posts 270 | Profile # |
| HotS better be something good, or I'll be seriously disappointed with Blizzard. Maybe I'll go back to BW for real. |
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| cloudica England. June 13 2011 08:43. Posts 43 | Profile # |
The fact that lost temple still had cliffs when SC2 was released says something about how "out of touch" they can be.
Probably not enough to draw conclusions but it's always at the back of my mind when I read these interviews (along with the zergling-templar example from now on  ).
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| kasumimi Greece. June 13 2011 08:46. Posts 430 | Profile Blog # |
The OP is extremely well written and is pointing out all the flaws in Browder's logic. I don't understand how this thread has derailed into a BW vs SC2 thread.
It's clear the lead designer of the game is too arrogant and ignorant to understand what makes the game interesting. If you enjoy the current state of pro-SC2, which is watching 100 games and hoping to see 5 epic ones then yes, the game is amazing.
SC2 is plagued with cheese, gimmicks, and almost always a "one huge battle and gg" games. This makes it boring by definition.
I've lost interest completely and hoping "hots will fix it". If you can't understand how BW is superior as a spectator e-sport compared to SC2 then it's clear you haven't watched testeless cast WCG's and Gom seasons 1-3.
Browder is a bad game designer and he will continue to be set the foundations for the future of SC2. And I seriously doubt the game's success up to this point has anything to do with how "cool" marauders/colosuss/roaches are.
Sometimes I feel sad about how much better SC2 could of been.
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| Alabasern United States. June 13 2011 08:52. Posts 2831 | Profile Blog # |
I think Blizzard launched ScII too quickly out of the beta, is this had been beta all year, imagine where the final game would be.
Look at the chat system, it's worst than my cell phones user management!Last edit: 2011-06-13 09:08:49 |
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| QibingZero June 13 2011 09:37. Posts 2560 | Profile Blog # |
You know, I was pretty outspoken through beta about balance and maps especially, but at least things seem to be moving (albeit slowly) in the right direction over time.
Right now the thing that really stands out to me is how ridiculously unprofessional the lack of LAN becomes in major tournaments. What a complete joke it is to have all the lag and problems resulting from players and casters being messaged during extremely high profile games. |
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 jinixxx123 June 13 2011 11:12. Posts 537 | Profile # |
On June 13 2011 07:50 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 13 2011 07:24 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:
People overidealise BW while completely failing to realise starcraft 1 had terrible balance when it was first released; think the beginning of starcraft 2 and multiply it by a 1000. The reason it turned into what BW is now is because of blizzards hard work and dedication over more than 10 years, yet the same people are so quick to dismiss the balance in starcraft 2 after less than a year and before any expansion has been released. Seriously, people, rome wasn't build in a day; SC:BW sure as hell wasn't balanced/super awesome at the start and neither is SC2, but if you think blizzard will suddenly give up on SC2 (like they've never done on any of their games, there is no reason at all to think that) you're just wrong. The main thing that sucks from the transition from SC1 to SC2 is the people; everyone has turned into whiny, demanding and over-entitled people. You are what's wrong with SC2.
This is an old argument and a really bad one. We have gained significantly more knowledge from when BW first came out - this means that SC2 definitely shouldn't take anywhere near the amount of time it took BW to balance out (BW's last balance patch came out 3 years after it was released, so no it wasn't even close to 10 years). There are a number of things that are very easy to take away from BW now that we have that experience, and the complaints are that the development team is simply ignoring what made BW the best e-sport in the world and just shouting "It's a different game!" at anyone who critiques them for it.
In korea you mean, starcraft 1 died everywhere but korea. Hell even tastless/artosis and every pro player of sc2 is in amazement at how much tournaments are going on right now due TO STARCRAFT 2.
if this game never came along, starcraft 1 "the so called great e-sport" = still be dead to the foreigners .
im really sorry that i have to point out facts, Some more facts are , if this game(sc2) was made more mechanically demanding (mbs, automineing removed) all the naniwa's , idra's = JOKE
sc2 is the reason foreigners even have a chance. Idra was always B team korea , never would he even remotely be able to win any korean league or tournmanent if it was sc1.
i mean , i just stating things here to point out WHY sc2 has a better esport scene for the entire world compared to sc1.
Lets say blizzard says, hey you guys want starcraft 1 back? , okay have it, heart of swarm comes out, it releases no automine/multiple selection . Please tell me what foreigeer will be able to beat a pro korean? we cant even beat them in a simpler game(SC2 MLG cough).
ill tell you what will happen, foreigers will relize they have no chance again . and the forieng scene will die off much like sc1 did , so only the koreans will play and we would be back to square one where the only thing a non korean can look forward to is qualify for stuff like wcg in his own realm to get dominated by koreans when he arrives to the wcg finals.
before ppl troll me for these statements, ( i know its coming), you guys know deep down its true.
sc2 is the best thing for the entire world due to the choices the designers made. THAT IS FACT.Last edit: 2011-06-13 11:18:45 |
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| MorningMusume11 United States. June 13 2011 11:21. Posts 3472 | Profile Blog # |
On June 13 2011 11:12 jinixxx123 wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 13 2011 07:50 Stratos_speAr wrote:
On June 13 2011 07:24 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:
People overidealise BW while completely failing to realise starcraft 1 had terrible balance when it was first released; think the beginning of starcraft 2 and multiply it by a 1000. The reason it turned into what BW is now is because of blizzards hard work and dedication over more than 10 years, yet the same people are so quick to dismiss the balance in starcraft 2 after less than a year and before any expansion has been released. Seriously, people, rome wasn't build in a day; SC:BW sure as hell wasn't balanced/super awesome at the start and neither is SC2, but if you think blizzard will suddenly give up on SC2 (like they've never done on any of their games, there is no reason at all to think that) you're just wrong. The main thing that sucks from the transition from SC1 to SC2 is the people; everyone has turned into whiny, demanding and over-entitled people. You are what's wrong with SC2.
This is an old argument and a really bad one. We have gained significantly more knowledge from when BW first came out - this means that SC2 definitely shouldn't take anywhere near the amount of time it took BW to balance out (BW's last balance patch came out 3 years after it was released, so no it wasn't even close to 10 years). There are a number of things that are very easy to take away from BW now that we have that experience, and the complaints are that the development team is simply ignoring what made BW the best e-sport in the world and just shouting "It's a different game!" at anyone who critiques them for it.
In korea you mean, starcraft 1 died everywhere but korea. Hell even tastless/artosis and every pro player of sc2 is in amazement at how much tournaments are going on right now due TO STARCRAFT 2. if this game never came along, starcraft 1 "the so called great e-sport" = still be dead to the foreigners . im really sorry that i have to point out facts, Some more facts are , if this game(sc2) was made more mechanically demanding (mbs, automineing removed) all the naniwa's , idra's = JOKE sc2 is the reason foreigners even have a chance. Idra was always B team korea , never would he even remotely be able to win any korean league or tournmanent if it was sc1. i mean , i just stating things here to point out WHY sc2 has a better esport scene for the entire world compared to sc1. Lets say blizzard says, hey you guys want starcraft 1 back? , okay have it, heart of swarm comes out, it releases no automine/multiple selection . Please tell me what foreigeer will be able to beat a pro korean? we cant even beat them in a simpler game(SC2 MLG cough).ill tell you what will happen, foreigers will relize they have no chance again . and the forieng scene will die off much like sc1 did , so only the koreans will play and we would be back to square one where the only thing a non korean can look forward to is qualify for stuff like wcg in his own realm to get dominated by koreans when he arrives to the wcg finals. before ppl troll me for these statements, ( i know its coming), you guys know deep down its true. sc2 is the best thing for the entire world due to the choices the designers made. THAT IS FACT.
So that's the reason why SC2 is good? Oh boy... What else should be given on a silver platter to gamers such as yourself? |
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| jinixxx123 June 13 2011 11:27. Posts 537 | Profile # |
On June 13 2011 11:21 MorningMusume11 wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 13 2011 11:12 jinixxx123 wrote:
On June 13 2011 07:50 Stratos_speAr wrote:
On June 13 2011 07:24 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:
People overidealise BW while completely failing to realise starcraft 1 had terrible balance when it was first released; think the beginning of starcraft 2 and multiply it by a 1000. The reason it turned into what BW is now is because of blizzards hard work and dedication over more than 10 years, yet the same people are so quick to dismiss the balance in starcraft 2 after less than a year and before any expansion has been released. Seriously, people, rome wasn't build in a day; SC:BW sure as hell wasn't balanced/super awesome at the start and neither is SC2, but if you think blizzard will suddenly give up on SC2 (like they've never done on any of their games, there is no reason at all to think that) you're just wrong. The main thing that sucks from the transition from SC1 to SC2 is the people; everyone has turned into whiny, demanding and over-entitled people. You are what's wrong with SC2.
This is an old argument and a really bad one. We have gained significantly more knowledge from when BW first came out - this means that SC2 definitely shouldn't take anywhere near the amount of time it took BW to balance out (BW's last balance patch came out 3 years after it was released, so no it wasn't even close to 10 years). There are a number of things that are very easy to take away from BW now that we have that experience, and the complaints are that the development team is simply ignoring what made BW the best e-sport in the world and just shouting "It's a different game!" at anyone who critiques them for it.
In korea you mean, starcraft 1 died everywhere but korea. Hell even tastless/artosis and every pro player of sc2 is in amazement at how much tournaments are going on right now due TO STARCRAFT 2. if this game never came along, starcraft 1 "the so called great e-sport" = still be dead to the foreigners . im really sorry that i have to point out facts, Some more facts are , if this game(sc2) was made more mechanically demanding (mbs, automineing removed) all the naniwa's , idra's = JOKE sc2 is the reason foreigners even have a chance. Idra was always B team korea , never would he even remotely be able to win any korean league or tournmanent if it was sc1. i mean , i just stating things here to point out WHY sc2 has a better esport scene for the entire world compared to sc1. Lets say blizzard says, hey you guys want starcraft 1 back? , okay have it, heart of swarm comes out, it releases no automine/multiple selection . Please tell me what foreigeer will be able to beat a pro korean? we cant even beat them in a simpler game(SC2 MLG cough).ill tell you what will happen, foreigers will relize they have no chance again . and the forieng scene will die off much like sc1 did , so only the koreans will play and we would be back to square one where the only thing a non korean can look forward to is qualify for stuff like wcg in his own realm to get dominated by koreans when he arrives to the wcg finals. before ppl troll me for these statements, ( i know its coming), you guys know deep down its true. sc2 is the best thing for the entire world due to the choices the designers made. THAT IS FACT.
So that's the reason why SC2 is good? Oh boy... What else should be given on a silver platter to gamers such as yourself?
i mainly argued the point where he said starcraft 1 had the best esport in the world, my correction to him was that korea was the only one with a esport scene, Starcraft 1 failed to make an impact on the non korea scene, unless you want to tell me i'm wrong?
i also pointed out earlier in this thread that i like the game for a lot of other reasons mentioned, so read back and dont come to conclusions so fast okay? sorry for disturbing you with these points that i made, you can now jump back on the sc2 hate train. Last edit: 2011-06-13 11:28:06 |
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| Doc Daneeka United States. June 13 2011 11:35. Posts 529 | Profile # |
i just find it weird that some of the main problems people have with sc2 are that it doesn't share brood war's technological and design limitations. like 'hey you know how to make sc2 better? make the pathing AI retarded just like in brood war!'... and you know, various other artificial limitations. i have a lot of respect for the mechanical geniuses that can thrive in a clunky game like brood war, but freaking come on.
i kinda like to relate to my experience as a musician. which instrument is harder to play - trumpet or piano? well i challenge you to pick up a trumpet and play a high c above the staff, and if you can indeed reach that high c, then i challenge you to play it without it sounding like a leprechaun farting. a high c on the piano, on the other hand, is the easiest thing in the world. you just press it - the piano is all buttons, and when you press it, the piano plays the note for you. but because piano is so theoretically and physically simple and elegant, the pianist is free to play crazy complicated stuff with both hands that is physically impossible on most other instruments. so basically what i'm saying is uh if you think you've got apm to burn, find something to spend it on. |
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| -orb- United States. June 13 2011 11:50. Posts 5664 | Profile Blog # |
On June 12 2011 14:31 jalstar wrote:
Immortals ARE more boring than Colossi, it's just that Colossi are much more "noticeable" because they're big and do lots of damage, and immortals just kind of sit there.
But you barely have to micro immortals because of hardened shield, while if you don't position and micro colossi well they'll get killed by vikings or corruptors in a few seconds.
This isn't entirely true. Immortals are one of those most important-to-micro units in that if you don't micro them and they're attacking zergslings/marines instead of roaches/marauders/tanks they're being almost useless and aren't being used to even close to their full potential.
Target firing is somewhat important for colossi too but not nearly as important. |
| 'life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery'
how sad that sc2 has no shield battery :( |  |
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| MonsieurGrimm Canada. June 13 2011 11:54. Posts 2440 | Profile # |
| pretty much agree with everything the OP said... one of the most interesting things to me is that they want to keep close positions in to "promote variety" because "some players enjoy rush games"... I'd like to see the players they're talking about O_______O seems to me like 99% of the community wants rush distance removed or doesn't care either way. it seems like they're just keeping them in the game for the sole reason of they want a game with variety, even if that variety makes the game worse |
| | "60% of the time, it works - every time" - Brian Fantana on Double Reactors All The Way // "Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt |
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| jsdk June 13 2011 12:12. Posts 63 | Profile # |
I think what bothers me the most is their mentality of "we'll fix balance in the expansion." I seem to remember a community manager saying that he couldn't believe that people would think that they would have an imbalanced game until an expansion was released. He wrongly thought Blizzard was still the same company.
The problem with that is that they can't know exactly what's imbalanced (or not) unless they openly communicate to the pros, instead of telling them to wait a year for some magical fix that might happen. And then guess what? Not everything is fixed because they keep shrugging people off, and then "wait until the next expansion..." Fantastic. |
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