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[G] Safe PvP - Defensive 3 Gate

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 All
 
 Geiko   France. July 04 2011 18:41. Posts 1600
Profile Blog # 
Safe PvP
- defensive 3 gate -


Good evening TL,

I am geiko, mid master protoss player on the EU server. I'm here to talk to you about the match-up that is hated by most players, often referred to as a coin-flip , you guessed it, this is about PvP.
This match-up has completely changed since the last patch, and I think no one can really say they understand it completely.
This guide is about my approach to PvP, which I call the "safe PvP". I will present it in form of a [G]uide for anyone not high master or GM, and a [D]iscussion for higher level players.
In particular, for all of you mid master and under players who are struggling with 4 gate, this is I believe the safest, easiest way to be safe against 4 gate without 4 gating yourself or sacrificing economy and tech.

[image loading]
@5:50, 4 gate doesn't seem that scary does it ?


Build order :
+ Show Spoiler +
Playing the build :
+ Show Spoiler +
Strengths of the build :
+ Show Spoiler +
Weaknesses of the build :
+ Show Spoiler +
Replays :
+ Show Spoiler +
Discussion :
+ Show Spoiler +
Playing the midgame :
+ Show Spoiler +

Conclusion :

This build falls under the category "defensive 3 gate in to tech". I know there are some 3 gate builds out there and I don't claim to have invented 3 gating (in before the usual "been doing this since beta" posts...). I really like my take on it and I thought I'd share it with you guys, since there isn't any guide to defensive 3 gate in PvP on TL.
I highly recommend this build to anyone who has given up on PvP and thinks it's all about 4 gating : this build makes 4 gate look incredibly weak. People who hate taking risks and like safe builds will also appreciate it. I spent alot of time optimizing the BO so all the timings would fall into place nicely. The build is really smooth and should be executed as flawlessly as possible.
Feel free to post any kind of feedback, positive or negative. I would also appreciate any high level replays of this build (winning or failing).
Finally, I'd like to thank Anihc for the time and help he gave me to be able to write this guide.
Last edit: 2011-08-16 02:27:14
geiko.813 (EU)
Old Post

 
 OdiousTea   Australia. July 04 2011 18:52. Posts 352
Profile Blog # 
Nice write up may use it when I off-race.
Old Post

 
 UmbeXCII   Italy. July 04 2011 18:53. Posts 68
Profile # 
I think I'll give it a try.
Nice guide though, well written : )
Old Post

 
 mousez   Australia. July 04 2011 18:59. Posts 90
Profile # 
This build may well be a saving grace for PvP. If it works aswell as you make it sound, the match up could be changed to stray away from the damn fourgate!

Awesome build.
gday
Old Post

 
 Sweetness.751   United States. July 04 2011 19:15. Posts 125
Profile # 
Good job, I have a build that does similar. I rarely use it though unless I suspect a 4gate, otherwise I expand against most Robo builds and every Stargate build. It amazes me that people cant figure out how to defend a 4gate without cutting econ though.

I would like to mention to people that each warp cycle the 4gate is warping in 1 more unit so they will slowly outnumber your forces baring a major encounter that you win. So you are stuck in your base till your tech finishes.
Last edit: 2011-07-04 19:16:52
Balance?! You're talking about balance?! BALANCE!?
Old Post

 
 UmbeXCII   Italy. July 04 2011 19:27. Posts 68
Profile # 
I checked the "perfect" replay. The build is really nice and smooth.
I will definitely try to use it. Thank you again!
Old Post

 
 Geiko   France. July 04 2011 19:31. Posts 1600
Profile Blog # 

On July 04 2011 18:59 mousez wrote:
This build may well be a saving grace for PvP. If it works aswell as you make it sound, the match up could be changed to stray away from the damn fourgate!

Awesome build.


I definitely hope that mid master and under players who couldn't find a safe way to defend 4 gate will start to use this. However at higher levels, there are other ways of dealing with 4 gate (but much less safe)


On July 04 2011 19:15 Sweetness.751 wrote:
Good job, I have a build that does similar. I rarely use it though unless I suspect a 4gate, otherwise I expand against most Robo builds and every Stargate build. It amazes me that people cant figure out how to defend a 4gate without cutting econ though.

I would like to mention to people that each warp cycle the 4gate is warping in 1 more unit so they will slowly outnumber your forces baring a major encounter that you win. So you are stuck in your base till your tech finishes.


This isn't entirely accurate. 4 gate will run out of ressources way before they get a significant unit lead. They will in addition lose any early units that they use to poke up the ramp and see what is up. Also, they are warping in zealots which will be very weak later on while you are warping in only stalkers.
geiko.813 (EU)
Old Post

 
 Complete   United States. July 04 2011 19:32. Posts 808
Profile # 
The only thing that would worry me about this build is getting the sentry as your 3rd unit. If they come in with an early push with 1z/2st or 3st or 2z 4st push id have to think specifically how to respond to that - but you should only have to worry about that on close positions on like meta/shattered/pits. Or if they 10 gated maybe.
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 Merany   France. July 04 2011 19:32. Posts 452
Profile Blog # 
Sounds interesting.
Do you know how your build does against the "Day9/Tyler" build (10G => Fast Robo => Gate) which can have 2 Colossi and 2 Immortals quite quickly?
(This build)
Old Post

 
 nnnx   Switzerland. July 04 2011 19:34. Posts 2
Profile # 
think you Geiko for this post, it's really great to see you again in the TL community with an other topic , I hope it would change the PvP macht up
Last edit: 2011-07-04 19:34:57
Old Post

 
 W2   United States. July 04 2011 19:50. Posts 1086
Profile Blog # 
I have probably faced this build before, and I have definitely faced the opening (zeal->stalker->sentry with 2 gas and wasted 3rd chronoboost). I've had many games where I just make 2 pylons on his high ground while my zeal/stalker battles his zeal/stalker somewhere on the map. From there I have slightly earlier warpgate, instant warp in your base, and 4 gates production (vs 3 of this build).

I would suggest zeal stalker stalker sentry. That 2nd stalker will help kill any sneaky probe that re-enters your base, and will reinforce your army better (there is still time before warp gate finishes and you can get some extra damage on him). Or skip zealot and get earlier gate for 2/3 stalkers.
Last edit: 2011-07-04 19:55:48
Hi
Old Post

 
 Geiko   France. July 04 2011 19:52. Posts 1600
Profile Blog # 

On July 04 2011 19:32 Complete wrote:
The only thing that would worry me about this build is getting the sentry as your 3rd unit. If they come in with an early push with 1z/2st or 3st or 2z 4st push id have to think specifically how to respond to that - but you should only have to worry about that on close positions on like meta/shattered/pits. Or if they 10 gated maybe.


Against early low unit pushes, you can just use a FF, or micro back in your base. In the 4 gate replay, he tries to be agressif with his first units before the push, but you can easily micro and stall for time until your 2 stalkers come out. It usually ends in them losing a lot of units if they try to poke up the ramp.
The 10 gate replays show how this deals with earlier than expected aggression.


On July 04 2011 19:32 Merany wrote:
Sounds interesting.
Do you know how your build does against the "Day9/Tyler" build (10G => Fast Robo => Gate) which can have 2 Colossi and 2 Immortals quite quickly?
(This build)


You have an econ lead against this build, but he has a tech advantage. He will not be able to push out though without risking to be backstabed (and he will most likely lose a base trade situation so I wouldn't be too worried about the push. he'll probably expand, secure his expand and then push out. By that time you'll have an expand of your own and you'll have transitioned (zealots chargelot for example.) It will evolve into a robo vs blink game which is hard to play, but not impossible if you have good micro.

I'm not really a fan of the whole cut probes / no scout Tyler build just to get early immortals. If you scout this opening, you can go robo instead of blink and be fine : he'll just have one more immortal than you but you'll have more gateway units and a slight ressource lead. Both builds take gas at the same time so in the later stages of the game, you will both be on equal footing)
geiko.813 (EU)
Old Post

 
 CCalms   United States. July 04 2011 20:19. Posts 341
Profile # 
safe vs 4gate, sure, but you are at a gross disadvantage against anyone who goes the equally safe 3stalker into tech. Your build uses three chronoboosts on probes, it doesnt even look like a 4gate :s
Old Post

 
 Geiko   France. July 04 2011 20:25. Posts 1600
Profile Blog # 

On July 04 2011 20:19 CCalms wrote:
safe vs 4gate, sure, but you are at a gross disadvantage against anyone who goes the equally safe 3stalker into tech. Your build uses three chronoboosts on probes, it doesnt even look like a 4gate :s


3 Stalkers is nothing safe. If you don't find the proxy pylons, if he has send a hidden probe you don't scout, you are dead.
Also against players who skip the first zealot, I also skip the sentry, and I see no way that this should be at a "gross disadvantage"

As the post under me says : this build is a response to standard play leading to either 4 gate or early tech. If he is clearly going 3 stalker play you don't need a sentry and you are in no way behind.
Last edit: 2011-07-04 20:36:42
geiko.813 (EU)
Old Post

  blah_blah   July 04 2011 20:34. Posts 346Profile # 

On July 04 2011 20:19 CCalms wrote:
safe vs 4gate, sure, but you are at a gross disadvantage against anyone who goes the equally safe 3stalker into tech. Your build uses three chronoboosts on probes, it doesnt even look like a 4gate :s


I don't understand this post at all. If someone does the 3 stalker opening, it diverges from a 4gate opening quite early (double chrono on probes and early second gateway) at which point (upon scouting) you are no longer obligated to follow this build order at all. Someone doing a 3 stalker opening is much better for you than someone doing a 1gate tech build.

OP: great post, thanks a lot.
Old Post

 
 ThatGuy89   United Kingdom. July 04 2011 20:41. Posts 1966
Profile # 
wow looks nice. If you've engineered this build yourself youve done really well with all the timings.
This only works against a 4 gate though doesnt it?
if he goes gate robo gate gate and gets immortals and then techs to collosus. Or if he straight up rushes to DT, youre gonna be far behind arent you?
Old Post

 
 Geiko   France. July 04 2011 20:47. Posts 1600
Profile Blog # 

On July 04 2011 20:41 ThatGuy89 wrote:
wow looks nice. If you've engineered this build yourself youve done really well with all the timings.
This only works against a 4 gate though doesnt it?
if he goes gate robo gate gate and gets immortals and then techs to collosus. Or if he straight up rushes to DT, youre gonna be far behind arent you?


It depends what you mean by far behind. You won't be behind in gas which is what PvP is all about.
You'll be a bit behind if you chose twilight tech, as blink vs robo is hard to play. But not greatly behind. The rock-scisor-paper aspect of PvP isn't something that can be solved through a build order, but this is the BO that I like to do to still be able to keep up in tech if I chose the wrong tech path.

I explained how to deal with DTs, but the most effective way of stopping it is with good intuition that they are coming (poking, scouting with probes etc...)

And yeah I did work on those timings alone (took me a lot of time optimising so everything would fall into place at 5:50)
Last edit: 2011-07-04 20:49:01
geiko.813 (EU)
Old Post

 
 ThatGuy89   United Kingdom. July 04 2011 21:02. Posts 1966
Profile # 

On July 04 2011 20:47 Geiko wrote:

Show nested quote +



It depends what you mean by far behind. You won't be behind in gas which is what PvP is all about.
You'll be a bit behind if you chose twilight tech, as blink vs robo is hard to play. But not greatly behind. The rock-scisor-paper aspect of PvP isn't something that can be solved through a build order, but this is the BO that I like to do to still be able to keep up in tech if I chose the wrong tech path.

I explained how to deal with DTs, but the most effective way of stopping it is with good intuition that they are coming (poking, scouting with probes etc...)

And yeah I did work on those timings alone (took me a lot of time optimising so everything would fall into place at 5:50)

so do you just do this in every pvp you play? or do you have to scout something that makes you do this?
i know in the 10 gate game you scouted what he was doing, but what if you scout and maybe see him throw down a robo. Would you just abandon this altogether?
what about on tal darim, would you do this on that map too?
Old Post

 
 Geiko   France. July 04 2011 21:10. Posts 1600
Profile Blog # 

On July 04 2011 21:02 ThatGuy89 wrote:

Show nested quote +


so do you just do this in every pvp you play? or do you have to scout something that makes you do this?
i know in the 10 gate game you scouted what he was doing, but what if you scout and maybe see him throw down a robo. Would you just abandon this altogether?
what about on tal darim, would you do this on that map too?


This build is tailored to be safe against standard 12 gate 14 gaz 16 core 17/18 zealot openings. Incidentally, it also works vs 10 gate openings (single gate).

However you will have to adapt against a heavy gas play, or 2 gate play. (and as said above no zealot). Since the build is entirely standard up to the point where you scout, this shouldn't be a problem.

Regarding Tal Darim and Scrap, as I've said, I'm not too sure. With good micro maybe... At least in the lower divisions I would definitely do this as the 4 gate is always 15 to 20 seconds late. Top level PvP, this probably isn't viable on maps with no ramp.
Last edit: 2011-07-04 21:29:41
geiko.813 (EU)
Old Post

 
 NB   Canada. July 04 2011 22:11. Posts 6963
Profile Blog # 
good build but you have a wrong aproach to how to counter 4 gate. when you have 1 stalker 1 sentry 1 zealot up and you 2nd and 3rd stalkers are coming. There will be a probes spamming 2 pylon at your ramp with 2 stalkers 1 zealot protecting it. What would happen is that the zealot poke up the ramp, see the dps is much much less than what he has and you will have to use your 1st FF there. When the pylons complete and you still have FF, instead of wraping in stalkers, those will be zealot contesting ur defends (they wrap in on your ramp which FF cant block what so ever). From there the 3 gate will slowly be out produced by 4 gate under the condition that you cant make sentry to counter zealot in that case.

a better variation of the build could be placing your 2nd pylon at the ramp and have your 2nd and 3rd gate there. But it will be scouted and the other player could just tech switch seeing such a wall of with probe scout early.

your build is designed to kill a delayed 4 gate where you hope you could win the early micro 1 stalker 1 zealot battle to get out ahead. Its not a complete safe build and got countered the same way day9/tyler immo rush build except in the immo build you have the DPS to kill the pylons.

TLDR: you have no DPS to deny proxy pylon what so ever.
Last edit: 2011-07-04 22:14:23
Kappa Kappa Kappa Kappa...... Kappa
Old Post

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