| ilovelings Argentina. July 27 2011 14:31. Posts 636 | Profile # |
oh fuck wrong thread.
edited.Last edit: 2011-07-27 14:32:25 |
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| vaderseven United States. July 27 2011 15:27. Posts 2264 | Profile # |
Here is two examples of me trying some things to deal with the infestor play I was speaking of.
1. http://replayfu.com/r/6Lndrg
I go for a bit too strong of pressure with the 2 rax (should have let some of the marine numbers build in the waves following the first but I was trying to abuse his lack of speed) though he does make alot of defense. I would say it was not the best trade for me but it was by no means game ending or deciding. I try to add a ghost academy as I take my 3rd to allow faster ghosts.
2. http://replayfu.com/r/NNpXFq
I did a reaper expand this game and went for a lot of drop play. The drops are very much shut down and I do not put any pressure on his 3rd really. The game is clearly over as I try to take my 4th and he gets a good hit on my 3rd.
There was several other games vs Bubba but I can't find them. I did not include any of the games were I went for a siege contain as I understand that style vs this but I don't feel like I can always prepare to do that style by the time I have confirmed this build. I want a more passive management style that works. I know that my game plan appears either disorganized or poorly optimized but that is because I really cant decide on when, timing window wise, I should be focusing on aggression and expanding vs turtling and/or harassing.
With the tips people have posted so far in the thread in regards to my post i feel like I should probably look at devising a timing that punishes his 3rd but a quick glance at the replays doesn't make that the obvious answer.
I am very curious as to what you guys have input wise. Do keep in mind that Bubba is one of those players that really will punish any mistake (as you can see in the replays any spotted movement on the minimap is taken in and reacted to) so I would love to devise a plan that is able to play vs that kind of style.
His style is to fast expand with fairly late gas into double evo chambers and speed (and often multiputle queens). He takes a very fast 3rd due to the map being favorable to him defending it. He transitions to infestor tech as he does this and uses infestor/ling/upgrades to safely get 1-2 more bases as he transitions into hive and ultra/ling.
I have seen many similar styles on the ladder but it has never actually been done to me in an elegant fashion. He uses his simple tools so correctly at each of the timings and I just am lacking the insight to see the exact weaknesses vs my game plan's strengths. |
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| EmilA Denmark. July 27 2011 22:43. Posts 2820 | Profile # |
| Is the OP bunker rush thing worth it? I can never get my bunker to more than 30 % hp before lings pop. I noticed it could be done on the new nerazim crypts as well - worth trying? Or is it solely for close pos? |
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| Tenks United States. July 27 2011 23:19. Posts 832 | Profile # |
Doctor: Could you go over your mindset when performing a rine/tank push?
Such as:
*Where do you position your tanks?
*When do you siege your tanks? At the creep's edge?
*How do you forward scout in attempt to find the Ling horde?
*How many tanks do you need?
I'm a mid Masters myself but I am having *huge* issues TvZ. It isn't a build nor macro issue I just need to shore up how to effectively attack a Zerg. |
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| The.Doctor Canada. July 28 2011 04:10. Posts 333 | Profile # |
On July 27 2011 15:27 vaderseven wrote:Here is two examples of me trying some things to deal with the infestor play I was speaking of. 1. http://replayfu.com/r/6LndrgI go for a bit too strong of pressure with the 2 rax (should have let some of the marine numbers build in the waves following the first but I was trying to abuse his lack of speed) though he does make alot of defense. I would say it was not the best trade for me but it was by no means game ending or deciding. I try to add a ghost academy as I take my 3rd to allow faster ghosts. 2. http://replayfu.com/r/NNpXFqI did a reaper expand this game and went for a lot of drop play. The drops are very much shut down and I do not put any pressure on his 3rd really. The game is clearly over as I try to take my 4th and he gets a good hit on my 3rd. There was several other games vs Bubba but I can't find them. I did not include any of the games were I went for a siege contain as I understand that style vs this but I don't feel like I can always prepare to do that style by the time I have confirmed this build. I want a more passive management style that works. I know that my game plan appears either disorganized or poorly optimized but that is because I really cant decide on when, timing window wise, I should be focusing on aggression and expanding vs turtling and/or harassing. With the tips people have posted so far in the thread in regards to my post i feel like I should probably look at devising a timing that punishes his 3rd but a quick glance at the replays doesn't make that the obvious answer. I am very curious as to what you guys have input wise. Do keep in mind that Bubba is one of those players that really will punish any mistake (as you can see in the replays any spotted movement on the minimap is taken in and reacted to) so I would love to devise a plan that is able to play vs that kind of style. His style is to fast expand with fairly late gas into double evo chambers and speed (and often multiputle queens). He takes a very fast 3rd due to the map being favorable to him defending it. He transitions to infestor tech as he does this and uses infestor/ling/upgrades to safely get 1-2 more bases as he transitions into hive and ultra/ling. I have seen many similar styles on the ladder but it has never actually been done to me in an elegant fashion. He uses his simple tools so correctly at each of the timings and I just am lacking the insight to see the exact weaknesses vs my game plan's strengths.
Quick glance at first replay, your early game pressure went really poorly but you already know that so I'm gonna skip on to the later parts.
If you're doing the bio heavy transition, the point is to STAY on the map preventing creep spread and preventing too early expansions and keeping map control. You know how BF helions are used to deny creep in certain builds, with this build, marines serve that purpose. If he's going infestors you CAN'T let him get his 3rd up without any pressure.
+1 before factory btw.
In that space above your main base, there are a million overlords spotting your drops coming and you know he's going infestors, get a viking or two and take them ALL out. Dropping through overlord vision might work against bad players but against better players it won't.
You also fell way behind on upgrades.
If he has all his units defending drops, don't be scared to push out on the map, clear towers and creep and fall back.
That should help a lot, from a quick glance.
2nd game, don't just sack your reaper, take the tower and keep hopping up and down when zerglings come, they shouldn't be able to pick it off. Don't delay on sending out your BF helions and pay attention to the helions. Losing them AND the reaper gives map control back to a Z without Z having to go a different tech route to get it (i.e. roaches).
When I see a fast third like he did, I personally do a 3 tank push with marines afterwords with the helions marines and tanks and always take it out. You waited far too long to push and then just stayed camped up in your base when you needed to be aggressive, again letting Z get their 3rd fast while going infestors, didn't watch the rest afterwards. Creep was everywhere. Metal cross positions shitty in general though. |
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| terencecah United States. July 28 2011 16:40. Posts 7 | Profile # |
| Nice guide. Anything like this for the other match-ups? |
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| TheQforce United Kingdom. July 29 2011 08:27. Posts 48 | Profile # |
| Whenever i go marine/tank the the zerg just kills my tanks with banelings and the zergling surrond + the banelings just kill all my marines, how do i avoid this? |
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| Najda United States. July 29 2011 13:49. Posts 1792 | Profile Blog # |
Wow this is such an amazing guide, has helped me so much! Thank you for the post, and I love your organization  |
| | "Admit your flaws, admire your weakness, hone your imperfections – then may you address your desires." — Paul Crik |
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| Baby_Seal United States. July 30 2011 02:30. Posts 360 | Profile # |
On July 29 2011 08:27 TheQforce wrote:
Whenever i go marine/tank the the zerg just kills my tanks with banelings and the zergling surrond + the banelings just kill all my marines, how do i avoid this?
If the Zerg overwhelms you in that way and just has so much ling-baneling that you can't really stop him, then you're doing something completely different wrong, be it poor macro, or letting zerg build up a massive economy without harassing. Basically, if that happens, then it means that you're probably behind anyway.Last edit: 2011-07-30 02:31:13 |
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| safetuna United States. July 30 2011 21:14. Posts 5 | Profile # |
| To defend against mutalisk harass it can help to keep your turrets spread out a little so that you reduce the glaive damage from larger groups. Also you can put a depot or other building in an adjacent space to the turrent and that building will soak up all the first bounce damage. |
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| DaemonX July 31 2011 00:14. Posts 533 | Profile # |
Mindblowingly fantastic guide. You deserve a MVP poster status for this.
That said, small black mark for your implied BM to the Emperor >
He proxies because he is good enough to make them stable - and he does them consistently, so doesn't get massive surprise value out of them, just pressure, and 50% of the time tempts his opponents into all-ins he has specifically prepared for.
Question: Once a Z commits to BLs, do you stay with ghost pack or squeeze out a few vikings? Do you ever get a large pack of vikings? My style has been to avoid Viks altogether, but I'd love your opinion.Last edit: 2011-07-31 00:30:16 |
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| The.Doctor Canada. July 31 2011 10:08. Posts 333 | Profile # |
On July 31 2011 00:14 DaemonX wrote:Mindblowingly fantastic guide. You deserve a MVP poster status for this. That said, small black mark for your implied BM to the Emperor > He proxies because he is good enough to make them stable - and he does them consistently, so doesn't get massive surprise value out of them, just pressure, and 50% of the time tempts his opponents into all-ins he has specifically prepared for. Question: Once a Z commits to BLs, do you stay with ghost pack or squeeze out a few vikings? Do you ever get a large pack of vikings? My style has been to avoid Viks altogether, but I'd love your opinion.
Woah woah by no means was I BMing boxer. He's one of the reasons I play Terran. I simply meant to show as an example of how you can proxy barracks and who does it. I meant for players not to do it on ladder though as straight up practice might be better as boxer often does the proxy rax in a calculated manner eg. Him VS idra in nasl. He knows idra plays macro and is less likely to counter cheese and has a weaker early game. I guess I should edit it o clarify though.
I personally get both ghosts AND Vikings. I find just Vikings is bad because of fungals and just ghosts is very volatile so I use both. I'm going to up 2 more vods playing against late game z and dealing with this when I get home. |
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| cskalias.pbe July 31 2011 11:42. Posts 278 | Profile # |
Definitely the best TvZ guide on TL. Much thanks!
I'm a little surprised you relegate the gas first reactor hellions for more one-off situations. I've found that it is:
-extremely safe, even for fast roaches after FE (not sure if it still works on one base... but i can't remember the last time someone has done that to me), for which you definitely have time for at least one bunker and at least 1 marauder.
-map control
-larva/drone harass (not many seem to expect the larva harass if the zerg is relying purely on queen ramp blocking for the earliest stages of defense
Is there a particular opening you feel this is very weak to? Or are zergs at your level just especially competent at defending relative to the rax openers you've mentioned?
You don't really emphasize upgrades that much in this guide, but that could be because upgrading hard is just understood. That said, I find that vZ I'm double upgrading earlier and with higher priority relative to vP and vT. |
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| Exstasy United Kingdom. August 01 2011 03:39. Posts 252 | Profile # |
It might be worth noting that although Metalopolis is no longer in the pool, Your bunker tip is also possible on these Ladder maps.
Typhon Peaks (4)
Nerazim Crypt (4)
Searing Crater (4)
Antiga Shipyard (4) ( 11 and 5 O'clock positions.)
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| Zurachi Canada. August 01 2011 12:53. Posts 288 | Profile Blog # |
| AMAZING post! I have been completely lost in the world of TvZ in the past couple of months. Having this as a reference will do wonders to the understanding of the matchup. |
| | @ZurachiTV | www.youtube.com/ZurachiTV | "Satisfaction is the beginning of regression." | |
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| noobasaurus August 02 2011 04:22. Posts 8 | Profile # |
Hey taking the time to put together this post. For a while I've been stuck in a rut similar to yours except for that my weakness has been zerg rather than protoss. I feel like reading this post has done a lot to help my understanding of TvZ and hopefully I will now be able to improve it well beyond what I thought was possible before. Good luck getting into GM this season  With the help of this guide I hope to get there as well. |
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| DocM United States. August 02 2011 10:43. Posts 187 | Profile Blog # |
| I second my esteemed colleagues suggestions. |
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| yaRus Russian Federation. August 02 2011 17:02. Posts 53 | Profile # |
| TheDoctor, what do you think about 1-1-1 opener in TvZ? Is it viable in this matchup? Can we somehow be not far away from zerg's economy? |
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| The.Doctor Canada. August 02 2011 19:17. Posts 333 | Profile # |
On August 02 2011 17:02 yaRus wrote:
TheDoctor, what do you think about 1-1-1 opener in TvZ? Is it viable in this matchup? Can we somehow be not far away from zerg's economy?
It's definitely good in certain situations and depending on the units you make. I just find this is a LOT easier way to play against Z as you're not relying on your few units (helions, banshees) to get a lot of kills early on and even the playing field. |
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| The.Doctor Canada. August 02 2011 19:17. Posts 333 | Profile # |
On August 02 2011 10:43 DocM wrote:
I second my esteemed colleagues suggestions.
Yes, quite. |
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