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 mols0n Canada. July 08 2011 15:46. Posts 388 | Profile # |
On July 08 2011 12:57 Trollhammer wrote:
Very comphrehensive guide, much appreciated. I play terran on and off (zerg is my main race) but one problem I have as T is that I'm usually too afraid of a zerg counter attack if I push out. Is there any way to defend/deny a zerg counter attack (ling runby, mutas in my base etc.) while I push, or does the game just degrade into a base trade in that scenario?
x2. i also have this problem |
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| saritenite Singapore. July 08 2011 16:20. Posts 1676 | Profile Blog # |
On July 08 2011 15:46 mols0n wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 12:57 Trollhammer wrote:
Very comphrehensive guide, much appreciated. I play terran on and off (zerg is my main race) but one problem I have as T is that I'm usually too afraid of a zerg counter attack if I push out. Is there any way to defend/deny a zerg counter attack (ling runby, mutas in my base etc.) while I push, or does the game just degrade into a base trade in that scenario?
x2. i also have this problem
Make 2 bunkers and the great wall of supply depots (in your nat of course), siege a tank behind your bunkers, make sure you have ample turrets to cover your butt from muta.
Don't rally to your outlying forces, rally below your ramp and keep them there. Use the marines rallied to fend off muta counter, wreck his expansions and bases with your push.
Profit. |
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| Notfragile Greece. July 08 2011 16:42. Posts 593 | Profile # |
Excellent guide!! Both for Terrans who are trying to learn the art of TvZ and for Zergs who have trouble distinguishing the different builds a Terran may do.
Most definately this will stay bookmarked for further study by a lot of players, even players who are not so low ranked. We need more like this, high Masters who care for the community enough to take a few hours of their time and share their experience with lowbies.
I would suggest to consider giving advice over this (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=225571), for every time i do this build, high diamond terrans seem to just die. I have yet to see a guy who survives it, so I only use it as anger management after a 2rax scv allin loss.
And again, a sincere thanks for the effort put in this guide. |
| | "The art of war is of vital importance to the state" || MVP.Keen fan since the day he stole my heart with a double 2rax. http://i.imgur.com/A82cl.gif |
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| Kornholi0 Canada. July 08 2011 16:44. Posts 629 | Profile # |
Can I add something that I didn't read (or let me know if you said what I said but differently)?
If you see your opponent play "destinyisque" aka hatch first or overpool into mass drone 2 base infestor. A really really really good way to not only punish but sometimes straight up win you the game or at least set you up for an amazing macro position, is to of course scout the infestors, but to get ghosts instead of tanks. Ghost Marine Medivac is very powerful, especially because early game 1 EMP can knock out the initial 4~ infestors energy which is really big especially if you can push right after.
If that doesn't work, do constant drops at multiple locations (its very hard to deal with especially with infestors) if he has his units spread out at his bases take that time to scan and kill creep at his front. Expand every time you do a 3 prong attack.
Once you've successfully either killed a mineral line, or done infestors damage (trade infestors for ghosts if you have to).
Push mid-game with a 3-4 base push of marines, marauders, BFH and ghosts. Split accordingly and doing a drop at the same time is really cute. If zerg makes an aggressive switch to mutalisk, just go mech or use your already massed marines to finish him off while he is teching. If zerg fakes infestors (gets it for hive) and rushes broodlords or ultralisk, broodlords are easily sniped, and ultralisk in that small of numbers are just pathetic.
A thing to watch out for is a roach-baneling all-in (if you metagame the ghosts too much you may not have enough units to defend against a baneling bust).
I hope this is helpful! |
| | Team Channel: VTeX Team Co-leader: AGGhost 223 Stream: http://www.twitch.tv/agghost |
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| phiinix United States. July 08 2011 17:27. Posts 1124 | Profile Blog # |
| You're awesome. Hope your tvps are going much better by now, I saw the reactor hellion with no marine opening on tal darim and thought this guy is absolutely nutss. Watched all those replays, gonne check these out for sure. I've been doing quite well against zerg playing my own style after opening reactor hellion in top diamond and it's worked well, but i'll definitely learn this style too. :D |
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| Daniel C Hong Kong. July 08 2011 17:27. Posts 1434 | Profile # | |
| | In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not. |
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| iAmJeffReY United States. July 08 2011 18:47. Posts 3386 | Profile # |
On July 08 2011 16:44 Kornholi0 wrote:
Can I add something that I didn't read (or let me know if you said what I said but differently)?
If you see your opponent play "destinyisque" aka hatch first or overpool into mass drone 2 base infestor. A really really really good way to not only punish but sometimes straight up win you the game or at least set you up for an amazing macro position, is to of course scout the infestors, but to get ghosts instead of tanks. Ghost Marine Medivac is very powerful, especially because early game 1 EMP can knock out the initial 4~ infestors energy which is really big especially if you can push right after.
If that doesn't work, do constant drops at multiple locations (its very hard to deal with especially with infestors) if he has his units spread out at his bases take that time to scan and kill creep at his front. Expand every time you do a 3 prong attack.
Once you've successfully either killed a mineral line, or done infestors damage (trade infestors for ghosts if you have to).
Push mid-game with a 3-4 base push of marines, marauders, BFH and ghosts. Split accordingly and doing a drop at the same time is really cute. If zerg makes an aggressive switch to mutalisk, just go mech or use your already massed marines to finish him off while he is teching. If zerg fakes infestors (gets it for hive) and rushes broodlords or ultralisk, broodlords are easily sniped, and ultralisk in that small of numbers are just pathetic.
A thing to watch out for is a roach-baneling all-in (if you metagame the ghosts too much you may not have enough units to defend against a baneling bust).
I hope this is helpful!
...I played a 2 base spanishwa fast third straight to infestors my first time doing the close position 2 fac tank push. It was an auto win vs infestor first late gas. They just can't deal with tanks. Going ghosts before tanks is so stupid.
TBH I had never had a solid opening vs spanishwa late gas style other than a blue flame drop. Now? I just push with 6 tanks and no stimmed marines and push hard into them and force a LOT of units or a GG.
What's with people going ghosts. Ghosts have no defense capabilities. Ghost have very limited offensive attacks. Tanks? I can siege a tank near a cliff or ramp and cut off a route to his base. I can tank hop faster than I could attack with the ghost marine army and get beat back and have to go again basically.
Tank > ghost in almost every single possible scenario. |
| | iAmJeffReY.267 /// http://www.twitch.tv/iamjeffrey_ |
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| The.Doctor Canada. July 08 2011 19:38. Posts 333 | Profile # |
On July 08 2011 16:20 saritenite wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 15:46 mols0n wrote:
On July 08 2011 12:57 Trollhammer wrote:
Very comphrehensive guide, much appreciated. I play terran on and off (zerg is my main race) but one problem I have as T is that I'm usually too afraid of a zerg counter attack if I push out. Is there any way to defend/deny a zerg counter attack (ling runby, mutas in my base etc.) while I push, or does the game just degrade into a base trade in that scenario?
x2. i also have this problem
Make 2 bunkers and the great wall of supply depots (in your nat of course), siege a tank behind your bunkers, make sure you have ample turrets to cover your butt from muta. Don't rally to your outlying forces, rally below your ramp and keep them there. Use the marines rallied to fend off muta counter, wreck his expansions and bases with your push. Profit.
Pretty much this. 1-2 bunkers and a supply wall on every map will go a long way. Reinforcements should always be rallied to nat as, if Z is doing any ling,bling,muta style, you won't be able to reinforce units individually anyways. Always clear and hold towers as you push to help determine if Z is countering. If Z counters with EVERYTHING, just go home, take out their army and go again.
On July 08 2011 16:42 Notfragile wrote:
Excellent guide!! Both for Terrans who are trying to learn the art of TvZ and for Zergs who have trouble distinguishing the different builds a Terran may do.
Most definately this will stay bookmarked for further study by a lot of players, even players who are not so low ranked. We need more like this, high Masters who care for the community enough to take a few hours of their time and share their experience with lowbies.
I would suggest to consider giving advice over this (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=225571), for every time i do this build, high diamond terrans seem to just die. I have yet to see a guy who survives it, so I only use it as anger management after a 2rax scv allin loss.
And again, a sincere thanks for the effort put in this guide.
I've never faced Jecho on ladder or any Z doing this attack. I read what Jecho wrote with how much stuff you should have while doing it and I've ran in to Zs with a bit less. Basically, what I'd do is bunker up and focus fire banes with tanks. After I stop the push I'd go very drop heavy while taking 3rd, pretty much the same thing I do against JulyZergesque baneling pressure.
On July 08 2011 16:44 Kornholi0 wrote:
Can I add something that I didn't read (or let me know if you said what I said but differently)?
If you see your opponent play "destinyisque" aka hatch first or overpool into mass drone 2 base infestor. A really really really good way to not only punish but sometimes straight up win you the game or at least set you up for an amazing macro position, is to of course scout the infestors, but to get ghosts instead of tanks. Ghost Marine Medivac is very powerful, especially because early game 1 EMP can knock out the initial 4~ infestors energy which is really big especially if you can push right after.
If that doesn't work, do constant drops at multiple locations (its very hard to deal with especially with infestors) if he has his units spread out at his bases take that time to scan and kill creep at his front. Expand every time you do a 3 prong attack.
Once you've successfully either killed a mineral line, or done infestors damage (trade infestors for ghosts if you have to).
Push mid-game with a 3-4 base push of marines, marauders, BFH and ghosts. Split accordingly and doing a drop at the same time is really cute. If zerg makes an aggressive switch to mutalisk, just go mech or use your already massed marines to finish him off while he is teching. If zerg fakes infestors (gets it for hive) and rushes broodlords or ultralisk, broodlords are easily sniped, and ultralisk in that small of numbers are just pathetic.
A thing to watch out for is a roach-baneling all-in (if you metagame the ghosts too much you may not have enough units to defend against a baneling bust).
I hope this is helpful!
How woul you determine this? Only way to know for sure is scanning and I don't think the build is that good that the metagame calls for that ATM. Scanning is always a gamble as well. You'd have to have made tanks to defend anyways by the time you'd get dropships to scout that way because if you don't, you can just lose to some roach bane all in.
On July 08 2011 18:47 iAmJeffReY wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 16:44 Kornholi0 wrote:
Can I add something that I didn't read (or let me know if you said what I said but differently)?
If you see your opponent play "destinyisque" aka hatch first or overpool into mass drone 2 base infestor. A really really really good way to not only punish but sometimes straight up win you the game or at least set you up for an amazing macro position, is to of course scout the infestors, but to get ghosts instead of tanks. Ghost Marine Medivac is very powerful, especially because early game 1 EMP can knock out the initial 4~ infestors energy which is really big especially if you can push right after.
If that doesn't work, do constant drops at multiple locations (its very hard to deal with especially with infestors) if he has his units spread out at his bases take that time to scan and kill creep at his front. Expand every time you do a 3 prong attack.
Once you've successfully either killed a mineral line, or done infestors damage (trade infestors for ghosts if you have to).
Push mid-game with a 3-4 base push of marines, marauders, BFH and ghosts. Split accordingly and doing a drop at the same time is really cute. If zerg makes an aggressive switch to mutalisk, just go mech or use your already massed marines to finish him off while he is teching. If zerg fakes infestors (gets it for hive) and rushes broodlords or ultralisk, broodlords are easily sniped, and ultralisk in that small of numbers are just pathetic.
A thing to watch out for is a roach-baneling all-in (if you metagame the ghosts too much you may not have enough units to defend against a baneling bust).
I hope this is helpful!
...I played a 2 base spanishwa fast third straight to infestors my first time doing the close position 2 fac tank push. It was an auto win vs infestor first late gas. They just can't deal with tanks. Going ghosts before tanks is so stupid. TBH I had never had a solid opening vs spanishwa late gas style other than a blue flame drop. Now? I just push with 6 tanks and no stimmed marines and push hard into them and force a LOT of units or a GG. What's with people going ghosts. Ghosts have no defense capabilities. Ghost have very limited offensive attacks. Tanks? I can siege a tank near a cliff or ramp and cut off a route to his base. I can tank hop faster than I could attack with the ghost marine army and get beat back and have to go again basically. Tank > ghost in almost every single possible scenario.
Nice. I've never tried the build v late gas but it sounds like an excellent idea. You can get some sick contains going as well. I'll try it out next time. It is really really strong against infestor first as well thoguh because you can just spread out marines and use bunkers with your push.
+ Show Spoiler +Some Z doing ling infestor style play in GSTL ATM. Fxotgun v some NSHoSeo player. T doing tank push with bunker contain. No chance for Z, not even close, ez pz
Last edit: 2011-07-08 19:41:19 |
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| Headnoob Australia. July 08 2011 20:16. Posts 1801 | Profile # |
You use mumble, what a bro.
great guide too! |
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| bitza0o3 Romania. July 08 2011 20:33. Posts 5 | Profile # |
| You are the best. very good strategies and explanation found right here, can you make a guide in TvT and TvP :D |
| | "Hell is about time" (Terran player) |
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| Alsn Sweden. July 08 2011 22:50. Posts 995 | Profile # |
On July 08 2011 19:38 The.Doctor wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Some Z doing ling infestor style play in GSTL ATM. Fxotgun v some NSHoSeo player. T doing tank push with bunker contain. No chance for Z, not even close, ez pz
While it's true that it worked, that had more to do with the fact that blueflame hellions killed *27* drones and like 10+ lings at around the 8-9 minute mark or something. Last edit: 2011-07-08 22:51:22 |
| | Machina improba! Vel mihi ede potum vel mihi redde nummos meos! |
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| cOsmax Belgium. July 08 2011 23:10. Posts 7 | Profile # |
| Man this is awesome, thanks ! |
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| Adrenaline Seed United States. July 09 2011 00:08. Posts 194 | Profile # |
| Great guide! What is the best way to handle Ultralisks? They are rather good at dealing with marine tank. |
| | Think Big. Act Small. Fail Fast. Learn Quickly. |
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| CapnAmerica United States. July 09 2011 01:14. Posts 484 | Profile Blog # |
On July 09 2011 00:08 Adrenaline Seed wrote:
Great guide! What is the best way to handle Ultralisks? They are rather good at dealing with marine tank.
If it's that late in the game you should have the infrastructure to produce Ghosts to counteract Broodlords. They're also quite good against Ultralisks and you can build some marauders as well if he's going heavy on their numbers (which is usually a terrible idea in ZvT). |
| | After all this time, I still haven't figured out the correlation between sexual orientation and beating an unprepared opponent. Are homosexuals the next koreans? Many players seem to think it's an unfair advantage. - pandaburn | |
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| sOm United States. July 09 2011 02:14. Posts 43 | Profile # |
Fuck this took long to write. IDK why I did. Just felt like it. Needed some stress relief maybe, whatever. No one else wrote a TvZ guide and I've been feeling like I could add to TL for months now.
I don't think too many people are going to read this as it's not any auto-win build or gimicky new thing. This is just standard play. Enjoy.
I don't really want to plug my stream, no one ever watches so fuck it.
Great guide! loved it, and i read entirely. Would love to watch your stream.. just saying, you should stream ^^.
Thanks
Last edit: 2011-07-09 02:14:33 |
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| minimalistic Hungary. July 09 2011 02:34. Posts 157 | Profile # |
At the korean transition after 2rax.:
@75 minerals refinery
@100% factory, add tech lab to it, start starport and 4th gas
@100% factory start tank
@100% stim, start combat
@100% starport, make medivac
@100% +1 weapons, start +1 armor
@2nd tank, start combat shields
After 2nd tank i suppose you start siege mode not combat shields again?
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| | "A baby Gracken dies every time you use Ghost + Mech" -unknown chat user |
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| RaE21 United States. July 09 2011 03:33. Posts 260 | Profile # |
this is a fantastic guide, well done ^^
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| cyrex United States. July 09 2011 03:54. Posts 24 | Profile # |
| This is exactly what we seem to be missing. A good quality guide for a TvX that explains not only a build order, but the general feel of the matchup including explanations on why certain things happen the way they are. I was actually writing up a general guide about the Terran mindset and how to make decisions, but between this and Day9's Terran week I've scapped it. I do hope someone can do the same for TvP and TvT in this format. |
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| Ghyslyn Canada. July 09 2011 04:41. Posts 114 | Profile # |
For the 2 fact siege tank push(auto-win on close positions) you specify to float the CC down ASAP to get the extra gas income.
I assume you get the third gas as soon as the CC floats down, but when do you get the 4th gas? Is it instantly as well or will you delay it? |
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| Isualin Turkey. July 09 2011 04:55. Posts 453 | Profile # |
great work. i am a plat terran and this guide inspired me to plactice more  |
| | Roses are #FF0000, Violets are #0000FF, All my base are belong to you. |
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