other than that i know catz beat MC in a 1-2 series that's all i know about him, and the fact he proxy hatch alot
]
Hi im DaZe (and for god sake im not swedish, and i had this name before i got into starcraft esports)
Im a top master protoss player http://www.sc2ranks.com/eu/587089/DaZe @1750+
Maybe some of u know that a romanian star league was going on, while i had this game against a diamond terran named Teo, i was thinking of a wacky strat to give him a chance :D so i played some practice games and found out that this rush works even against GM players.
The rush and build
+ Show Spoiler +
So this is the way i do it, and i think its the best way:
You take all the 6 probes, and put them to mine, you wait for 4 probes to return 5 minerals 2 times, and u send them to the oponent.You make probes non stop till 10 supply, then u will make a pylon and crono boost nexus 2 times and go gateway , then build and crono boost more probes and get a gas and another pylon core, and then do what ever the hell u want
You take all the 6 probes, and put them to mine, you wait for 4 probes to return 5 minerals 2 times, and u send them to the oponent.You make probes non stop till 10 supply, then u will make a pylon and crono boost nexus 2 times and go gateway , then build and crono boost more probes and get a gas and another pylon core, and then do what ever the hell u want
The mindset and tips
+ Show Spoiler +
*well for this build u need to be very carefull with your probes, if he gets 5 scvs
and puts them on your probes, there is no reason in hell to atack them, if he puts 4 you can atack then run while your shield regens, and if he puts 3 or less just kill them
*when the marine comes out go back with your probes
*This works alot of time because terran players:
1 panic and forget stuff
2 make mistakes
3 MAKE ORBITAL(this means sometimes you will get a 22 probe advantage to 14scvs and a mule
*i think it works on xel naga caverns, dual sight and... belshir beach maybe?
*again, i think im repeating myself but be patient, wait for oportunities, know when to fight and when to flee, and know your follow up
*Btw don't forget that alot of terran players put they're first depot to make a wall(this also reveals 2 gate proxy chesse) so you will force scv pull from the start and depot delay
and puts them on your probes, there is no reason in hell to atack them, if he puts 4 you can atack then run while your shield regens, and if he puts 3 or less just kill them
*when the marine comes out go back with your probes
*This works alot of time because terran players:
1 panic and forget stuff
2 make mistakes
3 MAKE ORBITAL(this means sometimes you will get a 22 probe advantage to 14scvs and a mule
*i think it works on xel naga caverns, dual sight and... belshir beach maybe?
*again, i think im repeating myself but be patient, wait for oportunities, know when to fight and when to flee, and know your follow up
*Btw don't forget that alot of terran players put they're first depot to make a wall(this also reveals 2 gate proxy chesse) so you will force scv pull from the start and depot delay
Very interesting posts, proving this is not stupid or dumb
+ Show Spoiler +
brainpower :I'd just like to look at how the 4 probe pull affects money from a mathematical POV. Lets assume the distance between bases for a probe is roughly 30 seconds, that the terran responds by pulling 5 SCVs, and that neither player makes a micro mistake and loses a worker, but that the protoss' harrass is able to delay the barracks from finishing for a certain amount of time. Once a marine is about to pop out, the protoss takes 3 probes back to his base to mine, and leaves one as a scout as usual. Workers mine ~40 minerals/minute, mules mine 270 minerals, and it takes a OC 90 seconds to get enough energy to call down a mule.
The protoss is behind the mining time of traveling to the terran base, roughly 20 minerals/probe, for a total of -80 minerals. The terran pulls 1 more SCV than the toss. He is now losing minerals more quickly than the toss, at 2/3 of a mineral/game second. The toss is also delaying the barracks, which in turn delays the orbital command. Every second the OC is delayed, it is not getting energy for mules. 1 second=1/90th of a mule=3 minerals. Once the rax eventually finishes, the probes leave, and 3 travel back another 30 seconds, for another -60 minerals. So, for the protoss to break even, JUST in terms of minerals not taking into account what the late rax does to teching, he needs to delay the rax from finishing for (3+2/3)T=140 seconds, or around 40 ingame seconds.
Of course there are other benefits to the play. Assuming you've practiced this before and your build is designed without the 4 probes, your build from that point on will be much smoother than the terran's which should be thrown off. If you microed well, your gateway is much less delayed than his barracks, so you have a slight tech advantage. You can play greedier with your CBs since you know that any marine pressure will be significantly delayed. Alternatively, you could skip your 1st zealot and rally your 1st stalker to his base. If he got a tech lab too early, you get a huge advantage because of his low marine count.
I dont get why there are so many 4 player maps in the mappool when it clearly 1v1 allows more possibilitys and reduces greed scenarios in so many ways sure variability is fine but having 5 / 7 tournaments being 4 players maps feels fail for me .
+++tehemperorer:It's not 4 pulled probes vs just 5 pulled scvs, it's more like 6 or 7 scvs because of those scvs occupied with building the rax/refinery that count against the lost mining time.
Serashin:Other then that i tried something similar months ago but stopped it because of my internet connection it was a 3 probe rush timed on when he starts his supply depot
My nonscout style kinda produces the same effect i am little ahead without extra apm useage :>.
But delaying mules is a mean thing to do
Didnt calculate exact game maths for this scenarios to seriusly make sure its worth it.
Might be interesting to test given mule time etc .
But all of this has a backfire effect same for my nonscout style.
And that is if you delay mules and mining he can use longer the minerals without spreading out or investing extra ressources.
That is same for my nonscout style if i mine overall more then one who scouts im forced to expand
earlier to not lose income.
If you face GoOdy sometime id love to see the replay of his crisis management.
CapnAmerica:This is the same thing as the build that CatZ popularized on any short rush distance 2 player map.
Pulling 4 Drones (or Probes, in this case) allows you to force 5 workers off from mining and potentially delay/prevent the Barracks from going down and do damage to the Supply Depot. It throws a wrench in your opponent's plan even if they play properly. Giving your opponent's more opportunities to make mistakes is the key to a strategy like this -- you don't actually put yourself behind if your opponent responds properly.
This strategy only works versus Terran, though. It capitalizes on the fact that you can regenerate health while they cannot without expending resources.
And no, it's not cheese. It's not all-in. The only way that this can be construed as an all-in attack is if you're stupid enough to lose all the drones or probes you send out for your attack.
This isn't a new strategy, though. Just something that most people don't do because they like to rely on different build orders with VERY specific timings and abusing those in the early game. Learning how to drone rush on a professional level while macroing flawlessly and continuing your build order is... uncommon. Maybe later on in the evolution of the game we'll see this more versus Terran on 2 player maps.
epikAnglory:Depends on the map, but this strategy isn't a failure. Players are theorycrafting as if you can just herpa derp pull off 4 SCVs and 1a at the Probes. I have seen this in Broodwar PvT a lot in the C+/B- levels, especially on maps like Destination (however it is a lot later than yours, about when my Barracks is 10% they move out).
tehemperorer:Lunzela! I love the 2 probe rush PvT, and am glad to see the line of thought progress... "well, if I send 2, why not send 4?"
Players need to be aware that until the MULE comes down, P has a big worker advantage over T in more things than just straight up mining. Probes are so much more efficient than scvs, so claims like "you lose mining time in the travel" are just bs as the mineral disparity is there in PvT standard play because cb is available before mule. Couple that with scvs needing to be present for completing buildings, and you will end up with a scenario of the Protoss being down 4 probes, but Terran being down minimum 4 scvs, plus the barracks builder, plus refinery builder, plus any time spent repairing other scvs, plus the delay between the finishing of the depot and the beginning of the barracks. Strong follow ups for P are sentry based play because you can saturate 2 geysers easily without requiring much mining probes.
ALSO! When I 2 probe harassed I harassed until the marine came out, and even still with more micro on the marine I could drop him to lower than half hp with just 2 probes, imagine what you can do with 4? I would kill that marine with easy; their only recourse would be to pull the marine back to their mineral line and that's when you go home.
(oh btw PLEASE SEE ALL THE REPS )
FAQ+ Show Spoiler +
(or questions and things i responded to )
Hi im back, and i will respond to the negative criticism, the fact that i love to explain myself and the fact that what i do has a reason helps alot
On July 18 2011 19:57 getpicture wrote:
is this meant to be a troll? the defending player will stack his scvs on the mineral line and and then proceed to attack move , doing stronger instantaneous burst dmg.
thread is fail.
no, i think you just did not watch the replays, scv stacking will not work at all, let's say the best scenario is when the depot is close to the minerals and so you will have to defend the left and right area of your mineral line, if i a move my 4 probes there and you stack like 10 scvs in the place i amvoed i just wait 3 seconds and go back to regen shield, it helps alot and scvs don't auto heal
While it forces terran to pull his scvs to defend you have to remember that you waste more mining time bcoz of the time it takes for your workers to get to his base and come back after his marine is out so i am not sure if its a great idea (unless he panics pulls like 8 scvs to defend :D)
Something very interesting to add here, whyle u do lose mining time for the 4 probes you constantly make probes and crono boost them at the nexus, in this way you just ... don't need the minerals from the probes because the gateway and baracks timings are so similar, he just can't kill you with 1 marine and 20 scv push if you know what i mean
I would just pull 4 SCVs, attack with them, when you retreat to regen shields I would repair my SCVs, all the while start walling off my ramp reasonably fast. You would do like 0 damage and lose sooo much more mining time.
walling of the ramp is a terribly bad ideea, you understand why this is got me like 4 very easy wins? not even after reading my post and watching the replays you didn't post the correc way to respond
- Hide Spoiler -
This is pretty much just a micro contest / crisis management thing. If the terran is smart you will come out even minus the mining time your 4 probes lost making their way to the terran base. In the VOD at the end of your harassment, you have 14 probes to his 13 scvs and finished orbital (albeit delayed gas). Worth it? I don't think so. The game was then decided before it began when he did some shocking bunker placement and blind 2rax FE'd on possibly the worst map to ever do that (XnC) and your 4gate all-in beat it.
The vod was one of the first time i did this rush, and for some weird reason Teo who is a diamond terran defended better than the grandmaster or top master ones
For the OP:
Did you know that if you press the "Copy Embed Code" button you can make an image of the games appear w/ a download link all on this very thread.
No, thank you for this
For every one that i did not quote something to, it seems you are as right as it can be
On July 19 2011 02:55 Haegr9599 wrote:
For the Rmdx game specifically, i have to say that i am not a fan of this build.
Reasons being:
1. if the person that you are playing against has micro at LEAST as good as yours, you lose a large amount of mining time and economy.
2. 4 gate robo off of 1 base and that isnt an all-in? lol?
3. We've already established that ghosts < Collosus, but still restating that.
4. From what i can tell, this is very dependant on scaring your opponent to stay on 1 base, which would be logical, you probe rush him and then go 4 gate robo, so i guess that isnt too much of a point. But, if the person is NOT scared and doesnt hole up in his base, then i dont really see how this gives you an advantage at all.
Take what i say with a grain of salt though, im not a huge fan of cheesy play tbqh.
tbh i must write somewhere to watch all the reps
And the fact that you EXPAND and play passive does not mean you allin for jesus christ, allin is a big atack you ARE making, the fact that you don't atack when you allin does not mean anything
The fact that zerg mines gas early and gets a roach warren while the protoss 3 gates expand means he will roach ling allin, but what do we see? drones and liar he only used the roach warren for defensive purpose if a 4 gate was coming
On July 19 2011 01:33 knekten wrote:
Just saw you get demolished by Kas on XNC... You were so far behind in the earlygame, partly because you didnt do any damage and partly because of the marauder+conc push Kas did, but srsly he could've killed you like 10 min before he did because you were so far behind
yes he could, but let's talk about the mistakes i did there
first of i lost 1 probe for nothing when i rushed him with 4 and lost 1 for an scv
then i failed like... wtf i did a huge fail with my force fields and then he has 28 scvs vs 18 probes
That should be game ender, i just was in the game so i can see how is kas gonna roll me :D
Hi im back, and i will respond to the negative criticism, the fact that i love to explain myself and the fact that what i do has a reason helps alot
On July 18 2011 19:57 getpicture wrote:
is this meant to be a troll? the defending player will stack his scvs on the mineral line and and then proceed to attack move , doing stronger instantaneous burst dmg.
thread is fail.
no, i think you just did not watch the replays, scv stacking will not work at all, let's say the best scenario is when the depot is close to the minerals and so you will have to defend the left and right area of your mineral line, if i a move my 4 probes there and you stack like 10 scvs in the place i amvoed i just wait 3 seconds and go back to regen shield, it helps alot and scvs don't auto heal
While it forces terran to pull his scvs to defend you have to remember that you waste more mining time bcoz of the time it takes for your workers to get to his base and come back after his marine is out so i am not sure if its a great idea (unless he panics pulls like 8 scvs to defend :D)
Something very interesting to add here, whyle u do lose mining time for the 4 probes you constantly make probes and crono boost them at the nexus, in this way you just ... don't need the minerals from the probes because the gateway and baracks timings are so similar, he just can't kill you with 1 marine and 20 scv push if you know what i mean
I would just pull 4 SCVs, attack with them, when you retreat to regen shields I would repair my SCVs, all the while start walling off my ramp reasonably fast. You would do like 0 damage and lose sooo much more mining time.
walling of the ramp is a terribly bad ideea, you understand why this is got me like 4 very easy wins? not even after reading my post and watching the replays you didn't post the correc way to respond
- Hide Spoiler -
This is pretty much just a micro contest / crisis management thing. If the terran is smart you will come out even minus the mining time your 4 probes lost making their way to the terran base. In the VOD at the end of your harassment, you have 14 probes to his 13 scvs and finished orbital (albeit delayed gas). Worth it? I don't think so. The game was then decided before it began when he did some shocking bunker placement and blind 2rax FE'd on possibly the worst map to ever do that (XnC) and your 4gate all-in beat it.
The vod was one of the first time i did this rush, and for some weird reason Teo who is a diamond terran defended better than the grandmaster or top master ones
For the OP:
Did you know that if you press the "Copy Embed Code" button you can make an image of the games appear w/ a download link all on this very thread.
No, thank you for this
For every one that i did not quote something to, it seems you are as right as it can be
On July 19 2011 02:55 Haegr9599 wrote:
For the Rmdx game specifically, i have to say that i am not a fan of this build.
Reasons being:
1. if the person that you are playing against has micro at LEAST as good as yours, you lose a large amount of mining time and economy.
2. 4 gate robo off of 1 base and that isnt an all-in? lol?
3. We've already established that ghosts < Collosus, but still restating that.
4. From what i can tell, this is very dependant on scaring your opponent to stay on 1 base, which would be logical, you probe rush him and then go 4 gate robo, so i guess that isnt too much of a point. But, if the person is NOT scared and doesnt hole up in his base, then i dont really see how this gives you an advantage at all.
Take what i say with a grain of salt though, im not a huge fan of cheesy play tbqh.
tbh i must write somewhere to watch all the reps
And the fact that you EXPAND and play passive does not mean you allin for jesus christ, allin is a big atack you ARE making, the fact that you don't atack when you allin does not mean anything
The fact that zerg mines gas early and gets a roach warren while the protoss 3 gates expand means he will roach ling allin, but what do we see? drones and liar he only used the roach warren for defensive purpose if a 4 gate was coming
On July 19 2011 01:33 knekten wrote:
Just saw you get demolished by Kas on XNC... You were so far behind in the earlygame, partly because you didnt do any damage and partly because of the marauder+conc push Kas did, but srsly he could've killed you like 10 min before he did because you were so far behind
yes he could, but let's talk about the mistakes i did there
first of i lost 1 probe for nothing when i rushed him with 4 and lost 1 for an scv
then i failed like... wtf i did a huge fail with my force fields and then he has 28 scvs vs 18 probes
That should be game ender, i just was in the game so i can see how is kas gonna roll me :D
Later edit: Follow up plan
+ Show Spoiler +
In the first replays i think you will see me go 3 gate pressure or 6 gate alot
This is not really 100% because i want to finish the game with a timing push, but i see some mistakes from the terran players
Vs ucs i wanted to contain him but i didn't see a bunker so i went up the ramp and killed him
Vs Inso and the other terran player, i 6 warpgate because i see a 2 rax and alot of units dead near my natural, there is no reason why not just have the mindset of OK let's go f n kill him if it has a 100% work rate
Vs the grandmaster player, i was going for an 1 base allin with imortals but after i see the bunkers and the scvs up i go for and expand
Again it depends alot on the thinking, if the rush is executed perfectly against not such a good player u won't be SO ahead that you can just 4 gate 1 gas and win, it all depends on what u scout and observe
This is not really 100% because i want to finish the game with a timing push, but i see some mistakes from the terran players
Vs ucs i wanted to contain him but i didn't see a bunker so i went up the ramp and killed him
Vs Inso and the other terran player, i 6 warpgate because i see a 2 rax and alot of units dead near my natural, there is no reason why not just have the mindset of OK let's go f n kill him if it has a 100% work rate
Vs the grandmaster player, i was going for an 1 base allin with imortals but after i see the bunkers and the scvs up i go for and expand
Again it depends alot on the thinking, if the rush is executed perfectly against not such a good player u won't be SO ahead that you can just 4 gate 1 gas and win, it all depends on what u scout and observe
So i will start with the link to the first time i did this to Teo, it was
http://www.regame.tv/vod/5148 (starts at about 2:01)
After this game i was training alot on the ladder for my next league match so i got pretty high, and i played against some high level terrans on xel caverns
vs Grandmaster terran Rmdx
vs Random high master terans on ladder(except vs Ucs, who is a fellow romanian player)
Maybe i will post more after i get some more ladder games
shout out to all romanian players from every where and the sc2ro romanian star league for making esports happen here