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| gtrsrs United States. June 18 2012 10:45. Posts 4414 | Profile # |
when you reach a higher level of play where people kite and position, you will quickly see that your build is extremely ineffective
there are very few bruisers that you can build *any* offensive items on, let alone *exclusively* offensive items. range trumps all in LoL, so the less range you have, the less leeway you have to build offensive items
if you start building WW correctly now, however, you'll be in for less of a rough ride when you reach higher levels of play where builds such as the one you currently employ are less useless |
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| Sermokala United States. June 18 2012 11:08. Posts 4757 | Profile Blog # |
but what I'm trying to get at is that I don't understand is why a wits end/wriggles is better then arvarice/executioners opening for jungle. I get how wits works with his ult and the 40% as boost as well as a proc that equals wriggles but without the chance. I think my math was a bit off calculating for the wriggles wards.
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| gtrsrs United States. June 18 2012 11:33. Posts 4414 | Profile # |
wriggles gives 30 armor
wit's end gives 30-50 mr
avarice gives 12% critical strike
exec gives 15% crit and 18% lifesteal
you are warwick, at level 7, 75% HP trying to gank an enemy annie, at level 9, at 100% HP with stun up. your ult cannot crit, your Q cannot crit. the only way you make use of critical strike is through auto attacks. in order to get any use out of any of the stats from YOUR build you need to be auto-attacking annie. your auto range is 125. her shortest spell range is 625. if she sees you coming and stuns you then unloads on you, you die. if she doesn't see you coming and you get your ult off and Q off, you don't kill her anyway because your ult nor your Q make use of crit, she takes one step back, then she kills you.
this is a typical situation in a typical game. if your current build works, you are at a level of play where the annie will not only not see you, but will not react or run when she DOES see you, and try to stand and fight you with auto attacks. in these situations, your build might be okay. standing and fighting is very good for warwick due to his passive.
in a real game against competent opponents, defensive items will be much stronger. defensive items that give offensive stats (wit's end) are the bees knees. but often you won't even get to build those, and will have to focus completely on pure defensive items (frozen heart, spirit visage) just to get your job done
i hope that helped. if not, add me in-game "SG guitarasaurus" and i can show you why your build will not work against competent players |
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 TheYango United States. June 18 2012 11:42. Posts 15762 | Profile # |
When you're trying to theorycraft something new, it's best to look at the numbers carefully, rather than saying "this is kind of like X but better in this way".
Avarice + Executioner's Calling: 2100g
27% Crit, 18% Lifesteal
4 DPS magic proc, 5 gp10
Exec active
Wriggle's Lantern: 1600g
23 AD, 30 Armor, 12% Lifesteal
Wriggle's passive, Wriggle's active
Wit's End: 2150g
40% ASpd, 30 MR
42 damage magic proc, Wit's MR buff
We assume that at the time we could get any of these, we will be about level 9. At level 9, Warwick has 87 AD and 0.679*1.2304 = 0.835 ASpd. Hunter's Call increases this to 1.107. This gives us a DPS of 72.645 without Hunter's Call, and 96.309 with.
The value of the Wriggle's ward is approximately equal to the gp10. We will ignore those for this comparison.
Executioner's Calling simply multiplies your DPS by 1.27, then adds the 4 DPS from the proc. This gives you a DPS of 96.259 without Hunter's Call, and 126.312 with.
Wriggle's adds 23 AD, giving you 91.85 DPS without Hunter's Call, and 121.77 with. The Wriggle's proc adds an expected 85 damage per attack, giving 162.825 DPS without Hunter's Call, and 215.865 with, for jungle monsters. Your DPS vs. Champions is only marginally worse, and calling the proc "equal" to Wriggle's is an absolute joke. As far as the other stats go, 30 armor has significantly higher gold value than 6% lifesteal. This isn't even considering the fact that Wriggle's also costs 500 gold less than Avarice+Execs. If we're looking at DPS/gold, Wriggle's actually exceeds Avarice+Execs, even vs. Champions.
Wit's adds 40% ASpd, and 42 damage, giving you 142.803 DPS without Hunter's Call, and 177.845 with. It doesn't give any wards/gp10, or any other weird utility. But the vastly higher DPS in all cases speaks for itself.
On June 18 2012 11:08 Sermokala wrote:
I think my math was a bit off calculating for the wriggles wards.
I think your math was way off calculating a lot of things.Last edit: 2012-06-18 11:43:39 |
| | Tongfu icon until xiao8's back on a ganker role. |
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| Sermokala United States. June 18 2012 12:20. Posts 4757 | Profile Blog # |
| that makes a lot of sense. Thanks for explaining it to me. I'll remember to do more math and check it harder before I suggest a new build. |
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| TheYango United States. June 18 2012 12:27. Posts 15762 | Profile # |
| Personally, I think Exec's actually has the possibility to be really good, but Warwick is not the person I would think of getting it on first at all. Crit needs baseine DPS stats to make it cost-effective, and Warwick has no business buying that much AD/AS. |
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| sylverfyre United States. June 19 2012 04:03. Posts 4135 | Profile # |
On June 18 2012 12:27 TheYango wrote:
Personally, I think Exec's actually has the possibility to be really good, but Warwick is not the person I would think of getting it on first at all. Crit needs baseine DPS stats to make it cost-effective, and Warwick has no business buying that much AD/AS.
Nocturne, on the other hand, actually has baseline DPS stats from his Q & W that it might be more appealing (I already like Ghostblade as "this is my only offensive item" for this reason) and noct's passive can also benefit from crit (makes for some rather amusing wraith clears when everything pops on q+auto)
Exec calling + tank items on noct sound pretty good - basically end up being a lifesteal tank. Seems like it'd be particularly nice against low-cc opponents like vlad where you already want the exec calling anyway.
This is getting away from warwick though. I should run the numbers for nocturne and put them in his thread.Last edit: 2012-06-19 04:04:24 |
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| brolaf June 19 2012 04:24. Posts 219 | Profile # |
On June 18 2012 12:27 TheYango wrote:
Personally, I think Exec's actually has the possibility to be really good, but Warwick is not the person I would think of getting it on first at all. Crit needs baseine DPS stats to make it cost-effective, and Warwick has no business buying that much AD/AS.
warwick has a LOT of business building AS, as it directly boosts the damage of his strong passibe |
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| brolaf June 19 2012 04:33. Posts 219 | Profile # |
On June 19 2012 04:03 sylverfyre wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 12:27 TheYango wrote:
Personally, I think Exec's actually has the possibility to be really good, but Warwick is not the person I would think of getting it on first at all. Crit needs baseine DPS stats to make it cost-effective, and Warwick has no business buying that much AD/AS.
Nocturne, on the other hand, actually has baseline DPS stats from his Q & W that it might be more appealing (I already like Ghostblade as "this is my only offensive item" for this reason) and noct's passive can also benefit from crit (makes for some rather amusing wraith clears when everything pops on q+auto) Exec calling + tank items on noct sound pretty good - basically end up being a lifesteal tank. Seems like it'd be particularly nice against low-cc opponents like vlad where you already want the exec calling anyway. This is getting away from warwick though. I should run the numbers for nocturne and put them in his thread.
warwick has 2100 gold worth of AS steroid + 500 gold worth more in offensive base stats than noct does. Noct has 3070(+1050 if shield triggs) gold worth of steroids.
So while steroids are active, both guys have pretty much same base gold value of autoattacks.Last edit: 2012-06-19 04:37:09 |
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| barbsq United States. June 19 2012 05:22. Posts 3039 | Profile # |
On June 19 2012 04:24 brolaf wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 12:27 TheYango wrote:
Personally, I think Exec's actually has the possibility to be really good, but Warwick is not the person I would think of getting it on first at all. Crit needs baseine DPS stats to make it cost-effective, and Warwick has no business buying that much AD/AS.
warwick has a LOT of business building AS, as it directly boosts the damage of his strong passibe
Not really, as the extent of AS that he really needs is wits in order to assist in animation canceling for chasing purposes. Even then, it's perfectly acceptable (tho somewhat uncommon as wits is just a superb all-around bruiser item) to get away with foregoing wits, and solely using his AS steroid, maybe using few AS runes to help out a bit.
The point that yango was trying to make is that, in the trifecta of AD, AS and Crit, WW typically does not end up getting enough of both AD and AS to warrant getting any Crit. |
| | Look at this guy, constantly diluting himself! (╮°-°)╮┳━┳ ( ╯°□°)╯ ┻━┻ |
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| brolaf June 19 2012 20:36. Posts 219 | Profile # |
On June 19 2012 05:22 barbsq wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 04:24 brolaf wrote:
On June 18 2012 12:27 TheYango wrote:
Personally, I think Exec's actually has the possibility to be really good, but Warwick is not the person I would think of getting it on first at all. Crit needs baseine DPS stats to make it cost-effective, and Warwick has no business buying that much AD/AS.
warwick has a LOT of business building AS, as it directly boosts the damage of his strong passibe
Not really, as the extent of AS that he really needs is wits in order to assist in animation canceling for chasing purposes. Even then, it's perfectly acceptable (tho somewhat uncommon as wits is just a superb all-around bruiser item) to get away with foregoing wits, and solely using his AS steroid, maybe using few AS runes to help out a bit. The point that yango was trying to make is that, in the trifecta of AD, AS and Crit, WW typically does not end up getting enough of both AD and AS to warrant getting any Crit.
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| Shiv. June 19 2012 20:44. Posts 1902 | Profile # |
On June 19 2012 20:36 brolaf wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 05:22 barbsq wrote:
On June 19 2012 04:24 brolaf wrote:
On June 18 2012 12:27 TheYango wrote:
Personally, I think Exec's actually has the possibility to be really good, but Warwick is not the person I would think of getting it on first at all. Crit needs baseine DPS stats to make it cost-effective, and Warwick has no business buying that much AD/AS.
warwick has a LOT of business building AS, as it directly boosts the damage of his strong passibe
Not really, as the extent of AS that he really needs is wits in order to assist in animation canceling for chasing purposes. Even then, it's perfectly acceptable (tho somewhat uncommon as wits is just a superb all-around bruiser item) to get away with foregoing wits, and solely using his AS steroid, maybe using few AS runes to help out a bit. The point that yango was trying to make is that, in the trifecta of AD, AS and Crit, WW typically does not end up getting enough of both AD and AS to warrant getting any Crit.
. You dont need both AD or AS in a kit to justify building crit. All you need is a decent gold worth of steroids, and then use the gold you get ingame to buy the rest of the stats. And when comparing noct to ww in this regard, ww isnt significantly worse going that route.
Due to the nature of his kit and how his teamfight role plays out, yes, he is. |
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| Mogwai United States. June 20 2012 00:19. Posts 8016 | Profile Blog # |
On June 18 2012 12:20 Sermokala wrote:
that makes a lot of sense. Thanks for explaining it to me. I'll remember to do more math and check it harder before I suggest a new build.
Yea, Yango's the man. Sorry for being a dick about just dismissing the build. There's no excuse for me to just be a jerk like that, but sometimes I am anyways, so, sorry bout that.
On June 19 2012 20:36 brolaf wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 05:22 barbsq wrote:
On June 19 2012 04:24 brolaf wrote:
On June 18 2012 12:27 TheYango wrote:
Personally, I think Exec's actually has the possibility to be really good, but Warwick is not the person I would think of getting it on first at all. Crit needs baseine DPS stats to make it cost-effective, and Warwick has no business buying that much AD/AS.
warwick has a LOT of business building AS, as it directly boosts the damage of his strong passibe
Not really, as the extent of AS that he really needs is wits in order to assist in animation canceling for chasing purposes. Even then, it's perfectly acceptable (tho somewhat uncommon as wits is just a superb all-around bruiser item) to get away with foregoing wits, and solely using his AS steroid, maybe using few AS runes to help out a bit. The point that yango was trying to make is that, in the trifecta of AD, AS and Crit, WW typically does not end up getting enough of both AD and AS to warrant getting any Crit.
. You dont need both AD or AS in a kit to justify building crit. All you need is a decent gold worth of steroids, and then use the gold you get ingame to buy the rest of the stats. And when comparing noct to ww in this regard, ww isnt significantly worse going that route.
There are a lot of things that make crit worse on Warwick.
1. no scaling on his ult, which eats up a significant portion of time he could otherwise spend attacking.
2. lopsided returns between AS/onhit vs. AD. WW benefits more than the average bear from straight attack speed than attack damage due to his passive and onhit effects are overvalued over AD due to 1:1 scaling on his ult vs. AD's 0.4:1 scaling per hit.
3. no safe way through the thick of the fight. WW has to trudge through teams to within 700 range to ult his target, and even then he can be peeled off fairly easily without proper isolation. Because of this, he doesn't have a lot of gold to spare of offensive stats. spending more than 3-4K total on offensive stats is extremely rare on WW because if you do this, you tend to get blown up before you can even start attacking relevant targets.
Nocturne on the other hand deals his damage from his ult instantly, can use his ult and W to circumvent the thick of a fight and peeling attempts to stick to relevant targets, and scales well on balanced offensive stats.
Essentially, what you need to justify building crit is both a reasonable commitment to building damage and a commitment to attacking during fights. Warwick doesn't have either of these, as he has to wade through enemies, duck and weave on low HP using his Q, and pull himself out of being able to attack for 2 seconds with his ult every fight. |
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| TheYango United States. June 20 2012 00:27. Posts 15762 | Profile # |
On June 19 2012 20:36 brolaf wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 05:22 barbsq wrote:
On June 19 2012 04:24 brolaf wrote:
On June 18 2012 12:27 TheYango wrote:
Personally, I think Exec's actually has the possibility to be really good, but Warwick is not the person I would think of getting it on first at all. Crit needs baseine DPS stats to make it cost-effective, and Warwick has no business buying that much AD/AS.
warwick has a LOT of business building AS, as it directly boosts the damage of his strong passibe
Not really, as the extent of AS that he really needs is wits in order to assist in animation canceling for chasing purposes. Even then, it's perfectly acceptable (tho somewhat uncommon as wits is just a superb all-around bruiser item) to get away with foregoing wits, and solely using his AS steroid, maybe using few AS runes to help out a bit. The point that yango was trying to make is that, in the trifecta of AD, AS and Crit, WW typically does not end up getting enough of both AD and AS to warrant getting any Crit.
. You dont need both AD or AS in a kit to justify building crit. All you need is a decent gold worth of steroids, and then use the gold you get ingame to buy the rest of the stats. And when comparing noct to ww in this regard, ww isnt significantly worse going that route.
You need to be able to afford buying ~2-3 major plain AD/AS items for crit to actually outscale the superior baseline cost-effectiveness of onhit items. Nocturne has abilities that scale off raw AD, which favors actually buying actual AD. Warwick does better with onhit procs rather than true AD because of how he has no AD ratios and how his ult provides full effect for on-hits and only diminished effect for true AD. And with the practicalities of a real game, you can't afford getting more than 2 damage items on Warwick, so in all likelihood, it's hard for most of your true-AD based options to beat Wit's+Triforce.Last edit: 2012-06-20 00:31:40 |
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| JokerSan United States. June 20 2012 00:45. Posts 180 | Profile # |
How do you approach lanewick's bad matchups (Olaf and Darius come to mind)?
I like to take tp/ghost on lanewick. Is that horribly wrong? |
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| Mogwai United States. June 20 2012 01:53. Posts 8016 | Profile Blog # |
On June 20 2012 00:45 JokerSan wrote:
How do you approach lanewick's bad matchups (Olaf and Darius come to mind)?
I like to take tp/ghost on lanewick. Is that horribly wrong?
It's pretty wrong. Flash ignite is really strong on him and while I could see maybe dropping ignite for TP, flash is a must for flash ults.
I've never played the Olaf or Darius matchup with lanewick, but I don't really see why either would be problematic. Hungering strike is cash money vs. true damage or mixed damage types. I would probably just run double gold/10 -> Chalice -> Kindlegem -> FH in these matchups. Kindlegem + HoG would give you the necessary HP buffer to prolong trades and get the mileage you need out of your Q vs. their mana pool to out attrition them. |
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| nosliw United States. July 08 2012 14:46. Posts 1824 | Profile Blog # |
| jungle WW feels slow. Strong sustain but no AOE. Do I just farm as fast as I can to lvl 6? Should I back for any items in-between? |
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| czylu July 08 2012 15:41. Posts 299 | Profile # |
| You should try and gank @ 2(if you're feeling risky) or 4. WW's jungle is too slow to keep him even w/ the lanes, you MUST gank. Yes his ganks suck, but they still do the job. |
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| sylverfyre United States. July 09 2012 08:22. Posts 4135 | Profile # |
On July 08 2012 15:41 czylu wrote:
You should try and gank @ 2(if you're feeling risky) or 4. WW's jungle is too slow to keep him even w/ the lanes, you MUST gank. Yes his ganks suck, but they still do the job.
I really like boots + 1-2 pots, skill QE, start wraiths & red, gank a nearby lane 2, dont gank again til 6. Can even take some gank tax if the gank is successful enough to force an enemy bluepill. Your jungling won't really suffer THAT much without the point in W at 1 (you'll have people leashing, and you'll still have full health for the gank) and post-gank you'll be 3 soon enough and have smite up for your blue buff. |
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| brolaf July 09 2012 09:43. Posts 219 | Profile # |
On July 08 2012 14:46 nosliw wrote:
jungle WW feels slow. Strong sustain but no AOE. Do I just farm as fast as I can to lvl 6? Should I back for any items in-between?
Honestly.. a lot of times you will want to just get red&blue and camp in bushes of top and mid awaiting for a chance to gank, while leeching some xp. |
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