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| Niton United States. August 02 2011 03:54. Posts 1497 | Profile Blog # |
On August 02 2011 03:52 Gorsameth wrote:
Question. how do you beat an ali/blitz lane as ashe/soraka. Tons of cc and avoid grab is really hard cause they just run up to you in the creep wave and you cant stay to battle them because you die during the cc chain and you cant run because then your out in the open and praying for a missed grab.
Let the lane push to your tower and keep it there. Failing that, pick a lane that doesn't auto-concede to either member getting hit once. If it's normal you can't do much about it, but in ranked Ashe/Soraka is a pretty weak lane if the enemy team doesn't have an AD carry down there.
edit:
Shikyo, there's times when Armor will push you over a hit breakpoint from incidental damage where Dodge wouldn't save you as well.Last edit: 2011-08-02 03:54:55 |
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| Juicyfruit Canada. August 02 2011 03:58. Posts 3477 | Profile # |
I think the main issue is that in lane, sometimes a lucky dodge bot lane, while two sides are trading pokes, is just enough of a hax that it lets you commit since you're starting a fight at a slightly bigger advantage (you're ahead 1 autoattack and you have 10% movespeed buff to do your thing).
Even if 95% of the time you don't get a dodge, as long as you can capitalize heavily on the 5% of the time that you do it's quite interesting. Last edit: 2011-08-02 04:00:25 |
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| Mogwai United States. August 02 2011 04:07. Posts 8019 | Profile Blog # |
On August 02 2011 03:58 Juicyfruit wrote:
I think the main issue is that in lane, sometimes a lucky dodge bot lane, while two sides are trading pokes, is just enough of a hax that it lets you commit since you're starting a fight at a slightly bigger advantage (you're ahead 1 autoattack and you have 10% movespeed buff to do your thing).
Even if 95% of the time you don't get a dodge, as long as you can capitalize heavily on the 5% of the time that you do it's quite interesting.
you and Jazriel should have indepth superpro meta discussions. he advocates crit reds on casters so that he can randomly win lanes sometimes via a lucky crit or two. |
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| Kaniol Poland. August 02 2011 04:07. Posts 3097 | Profile Blog # |
On August 02 2011 03:52 Shikyo wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 03:07 Mogwai wrote:
On August 02 2011 02:54 spinesheath wrote:
On August 02 2011 02:25 Mogwai wrote:
dodge vs armor
This is precisely why I always say that you should not get dodge seals as some of your first runes - they definitely are niche runes. But now I'm just thinking about ranged AD + support mirror lanes. That's a pretty huge niche currently (though I don't like that lane). Even more specific: ranged AD + healer mirrors. With dodge + nimbleness (+ some crit but you get 2% anyways), you have a chance to luckily turn things heavily in your favor.
yea, sorry but this is actually one of the worst places to run dodge IMHO. Dodge is on it's best on tanky characters who will eat lots of incidental hits anyway so that they can trigger nimbleness to stick to carries better.
There's the merit of running dodge on squishies in that if you're a squishy ashe who gets 3-shot by Tryndamere, 13 armor isn't going to help but a lucky dodge might save you. Also, nimbleness is great. But in just pure maths and over time, armor should be better
Actually it is possible to survive with 5 hp just because you had that 13 armor more. It is also possible that you die 10 times by being 3-shot by trynd because your 8% dodge did not proc |
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 UniversalSnip August 02 2011 04:23. Posts 4820 | Profile Blog # |
On August 02 2011 04:07 Mogwai wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 03:58 Juicyfruit wrote:
I think the main issue is that in lane, sometimes a lucky dodge bot lane, while two sides are trading pokes, is just enough of a hax that it lets you commit since you're starting a fight at a slightly bigger advantage (you're ahead 1 autoattack and you have 10% movespeed buff to do your thing).
Even if 95% of the time you don't get a dodge, as long as you can capitalize heavily on the 5% of the time that you do it's quite interesting.
you and Jazriel should have indepth superpro meta discussions. he advocates crit reds on casters so that he can randomly win lanes sometimes via a lucky crit or two.
I was thinking just the other day we need a Jazriel Memorial Thread like we have a Shikyo one, but I don't know what the content would be |
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 TheYango United States. August 02 2011 04:43. Posts 15771 | Profile # |
| One of the main benefits of dodge is that its damage reduction % stacks additively (e.g. having twice as much dodge negates twice as many autoattacks, as compared to armor, where doubling your armor less than doubles your from-armor damage reduction. As such, dodge seems much better for champs that are getting dodge from other sources, and not that good if you're only using the seals. Add in the fact that you really want nimbleness to really take full advantage of dodge, I would think that most ranged AD champs would be a poor candidate for dodge seals, since a) you're often going to want 9 utility over 9 defensive, and b) dodge boots aren't a common boots pick for ranged AD champs. |
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| JackDino Gabon. August 02 2011 04:50. Posts 3293 | Profile # |
| Dan Dinh's mumu guide has a section where he explains why he uses dodge over armour seals aswell. |
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| SagaZ France. August 02 2011 04:56. Posts 706 | Profile Blog # |
On August 02 2011 04:43 TheYango wrote:
One of the main benefits of dodge is that its damage reduction % stacks additively (e.g. having twice as much dodge negates twice as many autoattacks, as compared to armor, where doubling your armor less than doubles your from-armor damage reduction. As such, dodge seems much better for champs that are getting dodge from other sources, and not that good if you're only using the seals. Add in the fact that you really want nimbleness to really take full advantage of dodge, I would think that most ranged AD champs would be a poor candidate for dodge seals, since a) you're often going to want 9 utility over 9 defensive, and b) dodge boots aren't a common boots pick for ranged AD champs.
But dodge given lowers the more dodge you have.
Nidalee in cougar form with dodge runes/masterys have something like 60% dodge with 6 tabis.
oh and btw, dodge on tabi isn't unique and the idea of getting like 2 tabis on something like jax (30% dodge + or -) sounds amusing to me |
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| Mogwai United States. August 02 2011 05:04. Posts 8019 | Profile Blog # |
| different dodge sources stack multiplicatively. in other works, 2 tabi give 12% and then 12% of the remaining 88% = 10.56% = 22.56% dodge from 2 tabis. |
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| Shikyo Finland. August 02 2011 05:08. Posts 20253 | Profile Blog # |
On August 02 2011 04:07 Kaniol wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 03:52 Shikyo wrote:
On August 02 2011 03:07 Mogwai wrote:
On August 02 2011 02:54 spinesheath wrote:
On August 02 2011 02:25 Mogwai wrote:
dodge vs armor
This is precisely why I always say that you should not get dodge seals as some of your first runes - they definitely are niche runes. But now I'm just thinking about ranged AD + support mirror lanes. That's a pretty huge niche currently (though I don't like that lane). Even more specific: ranged AD + healer mirrors. With dodge + nimbleness (+ some crit but you get 2% anyways), you have a chance to luckily turn things heavily in your favor.
yea, sorry but this is actually one of the worst places to run dodge IMHO. Dodge is on it's best on tanky characters who will eat lots of incidental hits anyway so that they can trigger nimbleness to stick to carries better.
There's the merit of running dodge on squishies in that if you're a squishy ashe who gets 3-shot by Tryndamere, 13 armor isn't going to help but a lucky dodge might save you. Also, nimbleness is great. But in just pure maths and over time, armor should be better
Actually it is possible to survive with 5 hp just because you had that 13 armor more. It is also possible that you die 10 times by being 3-shot by trynd because your 8% dodge did not proc
Well more of it is that a dodge makes the person think they've killed you so they retreat, then you dodge and they realize it too late so you live. With armor the dmg should be consistent so that they'll see you live with 5hp etc. Also it's imo much rarer to live with 5 hp or so due to extra armor instead of the 6.8% or so chance that dodge gives you. |
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| Ryuu314 United States. August 02 2011 05:17. Posts 5338 | Profile # |
In unrelated news, Valve is bribing people to play/hype dota 2 like nothing other.
http://www.dota2.com/
$1 million dollars (USD) first prize for a 16-team tourney for a game not even released yet? wtf?!?!?! |
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| Kaniol Poland. August 02 2011 05:19. Posts 3097 | Profile Blog # |
On August 02 2011 05:08 Shikyo wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 04:07 Kaniol wrote:
On August 02 2011 03:52 Shikyo wrote:
On August 02 2011 03:07 Mogwai wrote:
On August 02 2011 02:54 spinesheath wrote:
On August 02 2011 02:25 Mogwai wrote:
dodge vs armor
This is precisely why I always say that you should not get dodge seals as some of your first runes - they definitely are niche runes. But now I'm just thinking about ranged AD + support mirror lanes. That's a pretty huge niche currently (though I don't like that lane). Even more specific: ranged AD + healer mirrors. With dodge + nimbleness (+ some crit but you get 2% anyways), you have a chance to luckily turn things heavily in your favor.
yea, sorry but this is actually one of the worst places to run dodge IMHO. Dodge is on it's best on tanky characters who will eat lots of incidental hits anyway so that they can trigger nimbleness to stick to carries better.
There's the merit of running dodge on squishies in that if you're a squishy ashe who gets 3-shot by Tryndamere, 13 armor isn't going to help but a lucky dodge might save you. Also, nimbleness is great. But in just pure maths and over time, armor should be better
Actually it is possible to survive with 5 hp just because you had that 13 armor more. It is also possible that you die 10 times by being 3-shot by trynd because your 8% dodge did not proc
Well more of it is that a dodge makes the person think they've killed you so they retreat, then you dodge and they realize it too late so you live. With armor the dmg should be consistent so that they'll see you live with 5hp etc. Also it's imo much rarer to live with 5 hp or so due to extra armor instead of the 6.8% or so chance that dodge gives you.
"This ashe has 623 damage left, i will crit her for 642 dmg so she will die". Yeeeaaaahh, sure Shikyo, this certainly does apply to your example of 3-shotting  |
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| zulu_nation8 China. August 02 2011 05:24. Posts 18694 | Profile Blog # |
On August 02 2011 05:17 Ryuu314 wrote:In unrelated news, Valve is bribing people to play/hype dota 2 like nothing other. http://www.dota2.com/$1 million dollars (USD) first prize for a 16-team tourney for a game not even released yet? wtf?!?!?!
If this is true it'll be the biggest game tournament purse ever by far |
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| Mogwai United States. August 02 2011 05:26. Posts 8019 | Profile Blog # |
guys, give shikyo shit when it's due, not when he's making a valid point.
100 AD guy attacks you when you have 10 HP left.
if you have armor, you're dead 100% of the time.
if you have dodge, you're dead 93.25% of the time.
in this niche, dodge is better, and it is a situation where your opponent can be planning ahead and severely screw themselves because they thought you were just gonna die and they already started doing something else. someone can feel when you're going to die from autos without dodge mixed in much better than with dodge mixed in, and thus have a better idea of when to pull out. |
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| spinesheath Germany. August 02 2011 05:30. Posts 5158 | Profile Blog # |
On August 02 2011 05:17 Ryuu314 wrote:In unrelated news, Valve is bribing people to play/hype dota 2 like nothing other. http://www.dota2.com/$1 million dollars (USD) first prize for a 16-team tourney for a game not even released yet? wtf?!?!?!
All this says to me:
"We fear LoL so much that we will throw $1,000,000 out there before the game has even been released in the hopes that it will pull many LoL pros over, together with their fans."
It's not like DotA or HoN are going hinder DotA2, after all.
I can totally see Riot announcing a huge prize pool tournament in the near future.
On August 02 2011 05:26 Mogwai wrote:
guys, give shikyo shit when it's due, not when he's making a valid point.
100 AD guy attacks you when you have 10 HP left.
if you have armor, you're dead 100% of the time.
if you have dodge, you're dead 93.25% of the time.
in this niche, dodge is better, and it is a situation where your opponent can be planning ahead and severely screw themselves because they thought you were just gonna die and they already started doing something else. someone can feel when you're going to die from autos without dodge mixed in much better than with dodge mixed in, and thus have a better idea of when to pull out.
I have had this situation countless times: Barely get a last attack off that will finish the enemy, retreat because I'm already tanking tower hits. Dodge.Last edit: 2011-08-02 05:33:35 |
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| Juicyfruit Canada. August 02 2011 05:33. Posts 3477 | Profile # |
On August 02 2011 04:07 Mogwai wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 03:58 Juicyfruit wrote:
I think the main issue is that in lane, sometimes a lucky dodge bot lane, while two sides are trading pokes, is just enough of a hax that it lets you commit since you're starting a fight at a slightly bigger advantage (you're ahead 1 autoattack and you have 10% movespeed buff to do your thing).
Even if 95% of the time you don't get a dodge, as long as you can capitalize heavily on the 5% of the time that you do it's quite interesting.
you and Jazriel should have indepth superpro meta discussions. he advocates crit reds on casters so that he can randomly win lanes sometimes via a lucky crit or two.
Aw duuude, dodge quint + seal and crit chance mark + glyph the new setup on everyone! Huehue.
But really though, I think there's a legitimate difference between gambling on a lucky dodge when fighting, and engaging off a lucky dodge, at least in cases where you have enough regen or a healer to keep you topped off.
Last edit: 2011-08-02 05:34:10 |
| | Do not hate me because I am better than you. There are people better than me as well; go hate them. |
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| Shikyo Finland. August 02 2011 05:33. Posts 20253 | Profile Blog # |
On August 02 2011 05:19 Kaniol wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 05:08 Shikyo wrote:
On August 02 2011 04:07 Kaniol wrote:
On August 02 2011 03:52 Shikyo wrote:
On August 02 2011 03:07 Mogwai wrote:
On August 02 2011 02:54 spinesheath wrote:
On August 02 2011 02:25 Mogwai wrote:
dodge vs armor
This is precisely why I always say that you should not get dodge seals as some of your first runes - they definitely are niche runes. But now I'm just thinking about ranged AD + support mirror lanes. That's a pretty huge niche currently (though I don't like that lane). Even more specific: ranged AD + healer mirrors. With dodge + nimbleness (+ some crit but you get 2% anyways), you have a chance to luckily turn things heavily in your favor.
yea, sorry but this is actually one of the worst places to run dodge IMHO. Dodge is on it's best on tanky characters who will eat lots of incidental hits anyway so that they can trigger nimbleness to stick to carries better.
There's the merit of running dodge on squishies in that if you're a squishy ashe who gets 3-shot by Tryndamere, 13 armor isn't going to help but a lucky dodge might save you. Also, nimbleness is great. But in just pure maths and over time, armor should be better
Actually it is possible to survive with 5 hp just because you had that 13 armor more. It is also possible that you die 10 times by being 3-shot by trynd because your 8% dodge did not proc
Well more of it is that a dodge makes the person think they've killed you so they retreat, then you dodge and they realize it too late so you live. With armor the dmg should be consistent so that they'll see you live with 5hp etc. Also it's imo much rarer to live with 5 hp or so due to extra armor instead of the 6.8% or so chance that dodge gives you.
"This ashe has 623 damage left, i will crit her for 642 dmg so she will die". Yeeeaaaahh, sure Shikyo, this certainly does apply to your example of 3-shotting
Usually it won't be even close to that close, and when there's that kind of doubt, you're going to go for the 4th hit. But if she has 40 hp and you're diving her, you might hit her once and turn around, and if she dodges that it's too late. If she has 200 hp or so, you'll just chase and get that one hit in etc |
| | "I shall wait for you in death's halls, my Love (love love love love~)" |
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| gtrsrs United States. August 02 2011 05:41. Posts 4416 | Profile # |
the thing about dodge v armor is how they scale
when you have very little of either, a little more armor is FAR more effective than a little more dodge. this is because of the way physical damage is calculated when interacting with armor
however when you have a ton of armor, adding a little more isn't that good. when you have a ton of dodge, adding a bit more is HUGE.
but in the early game, a minimal amount of dodge is worthless compared to a bit more armor |
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| Kaniol Poland. August 02 2011 05:43. Posts 3097 | Profile Blog # |
On August 02 2011 05:26 Mogwai wrote:
guys, give shikyo shit when it's due, not when he's making a valid point.
100 AD guy attacks you when you have 10 HP left.
if you have armor, you're dead 100% of the time.
if you have dodge, you're dead 93.25% of the time.
in this niche, dodge is better, and it is a situation where your opponent can be planning ahead and severely screw themselves because they thought you were just gonna die and they already started doing something else. someone can feel when you're going to die from autos without dodge mixed in much better than with dodge mixed in, and thus have a better idea of when to pull out.
That's a valid point, i was just "teasing" with shikyo by arguing with small examples, not the big picture
And i think we all know that dodge is better if you have more armor (since mathematically it makes sense - benefits of armor are multiplied by hp and by dodge, so if we assume that we have a lot of armor and hp we'd rather get dodge than armor)Last edit: 2011-08-02 05:46:53 |
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| Caller Poland. August 02 2011 06:02. Posts 7267 | Profile Blog # |
| you guys should come play dota with me |
| | Watch me fail at Paradox: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=397564 |
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