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Searing Crater's default natural is kind of hard to defend.
The enemy can easily get onto the natural plateau, making it awkward to defend your base there. Standing on the other side of the wall to defend the ramps makes your army very surround-able, but standing behind the wall leaves you cramped and vulnerable to splash, and prone to flanks.
It's much easier to defend your third if you take it as your natural. Your army can sit between your main and natural ramps, and all attacks have to come from one direction.
You can even forge fast expand this way, and break down your third rocks if you're going for a 2 base timing attack.
(This wall isn't the best, maybe you could use a second gateway depending on your build) If you're not, your third is super easy to take at your natural, since your army will be bigger by then and easier to split.
Is this even viable? Here's a replay of me in diamond, expanding here vs a terran who does some banshee/hellion harass and sits on 2 bases. I think I had the advantage that he didn't scout my natural for a bit, but I feel like this would have still been viable if he had.
I'm also not sure if expanding to this location is any good as the other races, or against other strategies, but it seems reasonably solid. This is a discussion thread, so I'm not totally sure of this strategy. What do you think?
Seeing the replies, this is probably less than optimal for zerg, because of the difficulty of connecting your bases with creep. But as terran or protoss, it seems pretty good.
EDIT: Reading the replies, maybe this expand isn't the best for PvZ. I just kind of made up the wall to see if it was even possible. For PvT I wasn't thinking about the high ground when I posted this, and it could be a problem. But sieged tanks on the other side of your natural wall could be just as bad. However in some matchups I think the third expansion is definitely the better one to take as your natural.
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Thank you! I might be doing this in my ladder games :D
The only weakness i can spot is the rocks.
edit: creep as zerg might be a problem too : /
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Hmm, very interesting idea. I only see a huge flaw for zergs in that it probably takes about 4 creep tumors to connect the bases? Other than that this could be viable for toss/terran as long as they keep their eyes on the rocks. Air harrass would probably be pretty tough to defend against as well, but I'm definitely gonna try this a few times tonight if I get this map ^^
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As Zerg, I don't mind it so much, as long as I don't depend too heavily on lings for defense. Generally, I can set spines on the inside side of the wall and with the range 7, they can outrange any early agression, until I can have enough units on the low ground to get a decent surround.
Furthermore, I like, as zerg, using the opponents wall to hide an olord that invisible except to air. I don't like the idea of the 3rd as a natural though, cause drops on the cliff could be devastating pre-lair, and as Twish said, creep tumors make the 3rd less viable. I tried it once to FE in ZvZ, accidentally, since it was my first game and I didnt realize where my natural actually was, and tried to go roaches, but didnt block off well enough... I think vs zerg it can be a problem, due to the several entrances for speedlings, and perhaps as toss or terran the 3rd is a better idea, but in ZvZ, I'm thinking that FE is less viable, and there's goingto be more 1 base zvz's...
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LOL yeah I accidentally took the third as my natural too in a zvp. It worked out but I feel like it's because he thought I was going to one base all in him and turtled up and cut probes.
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I do this all the time as Terran, sooooo much easier to defend as mid/large bio is really hard to engage with in such a closed natural. Also much easier to bunker up that small area with only two entrances rather than 3 entrances
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The 3rd can be harassed pretty easily by fast tank drops though ala Lost Temple/Delta Quadrant.
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This is something that I've been thinking about a lot, too. I haven't done much experimenting with it yet, but my feeling is that it's not a good candidate for a FFE because a roach/ling all-in could just knock down the rocks, leaving you defending a huge choke with most of your firepower in useless static defense. A more unit-based expand like a 3-gate expo PvZ or any of the typical PvT expand builds seems like it might be viable, though, though you could end up with problems once your rocks get knocked down.
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As a Terran, I think this has alot of potential as an easier to defend natural. However that said, since this map is pretty small and the regular natural is crappy to defend, this map really lends itself to 1 base play.
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This is definitely viable in PvZ, actually a really good idea, haven't thought about it (since I haven't had much chance to play this map yet either). I would advice against it in PvT. As has been said, the third can be dropped the same way as on delta quadrant and lost temple. Furthermore, in PvT there's not really a big danger if you place your units near your natural nexus...spaces are narrow enough for good force-fields.
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i play mech. So the nat is good to defend, you can float a rax and or get an air unit over that little cliff/barrier thing and tanks smash everything. If someone tock the third first against me I would drop the overlooking cliff with tanks knowing that im safe from counter attacks coz i what i said above (can also block one side quickly with buildings)
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The issue with this map is that not taking the normal narural, you expose yourself to tanks. By sieging on the other side of the rocks and putting down bunkers by the feet of your ramp down, you are basically stuck in a position where you get smashed.
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For PvZ, I'm going to have to say it's not a very good idea... it's not difficult to break down the rocks and once that happens your expansion is going to be much more difficult to defend than had you expanded to your normal natural.
I don't understand what the huge fuss is over FFE on this map, sure it's not great but it's definitely still doable. Just build cannons at both entrances. Compare it to a map like xel naga: if you think about it, the total exposed area of your natural is actually less on searing than on xel naga.
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Neat ideas OP.
However, I would be concerned for PvZ about the short air distances between your main and 2nd minerals when dealing with mutas. (The distance over land is quite long.) This distance would also make dealing with nydus difficult, especially since your main is huge.
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On August 04 2011 01:08 Ribo21 wrote: Neat ideas OP.
However, I would be concerned for PvZ about the short air distances between your main and 2nd minerals when dealing with mutas. (The distance over land is quite long.) This distance would also make dealing with nydus difficult, especially since your main is huge.
I wouldn't worry SO much, most zergs have it downvoted
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From a TvZ standpoint I hate this map. I have tried both variations and it seems like the third base is VERY hard to defend. there are way to many choked to defend / bock off. at the natural where the small entrence to the i put two supply depots, which are easily killed and then next thing you know you're surrounded by zerglings or they can just swing around and kill the rocks real fast. AND EVEN if you do get up to a third base, in a long game depending on spawns its nearly impossible to take a 4th.
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I'm going to give it some more time, but i sure am not a fan.
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On August 04 2011 00:44 Anihc wrote: For PvZ, I'm going to have to say it's not a very good idea... it's not difficult to break down the rocks and once that happens your expansion is going to be much more difficult to defend than had you expanded to your normal natural.
I don't understand what the huge fuss is over FFE on this map, sure it's not great but it's definitely still doable. Just build cannons at both entrances. Compare it to a map like xel naga: if you think about it, the total exposed area of your natural is actually less on searing than on xel naga.
Have to agree with this, although your chances of playing PvZ on Searing Crater are about as high as playing PvZ on Delta Quadrant pre-patch. The vast majority of Zergs already have it thumbed down.
Chances are, you'll be playing a lot of TvT, PvT, and PvP on this map. Have fun!
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On August 04 2011 01:39 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 00:44 Anihc wrote: For PvZ, I'm going to have to say it's not a very good idea... it's not difficult to break down the rocks and once that happens your expansion is going to be much more difficult to defend than had you expanded to your normal natural.
I don't understand what the huge fuss is over FFE on this map, sure it's not great but it's definitely still doable. Just build cannons at both entrances. Compare it to a map like xel naga: if you think about it, the total exposed area of your natural is actually less on searing than on xel naga. Have to agree with this, although your chances of playing PvZ on Searing Crater are about as high as playing PvZ on Delta Quadrant pre-patch. The vast majority of Zergs already have it thumbed down. Chances are, you'll be playing a lot of TvT, PvT, and PvP on this map. Have fun!
Well, there is a crowd that exists of people who refuse to thumb down anything, such that they'll have experience should we ever face a map (we would have otherwise chosen to veto) in say, a tournamnet. Besides, it makes you an all around better player, and part of the fun of SC2 is learning to adapt to different maps.
I'm Zerg, and I'll continue to play anything Blizz throws at me, and I'll just adjust my game plan on the fly accordingly.
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