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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. | Teoita Italy. November 07 2011 07:01. Posts 4457 | Profile Blog # |
On November 07 2011 06:57 Xenomorph wrote:
Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 06:42 Latedi wrote:
On November 07 2011 06:35 Xenomorph wrote:
Whats a good timing/composition against a 2/3 base mass roach zerg player? Lets say on generally most medium maps. What is also a good timing to take a third against a zerg who takes a fast third against a FFE?
Get a stalker sentry army with support from immortals and/or colossi. This army easily deals with any amount of roaches but it will be more problematic once the zerg starts adding other units to the army. As for the third that really depends on what build you go for. It's quite standard to take it once you have a colossus or two out. But you can also take it with for example a 5gate robo or behind 6gate pressure.
Most of the time I see a lot of mass sling into mass roach so its odd getting a gate army that can deal with both on a 2-3 base without getting rolled.
2base colossus is an ok build in that situation imo. |
| | Protoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright. | |
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| Vathus Canada. November 07 2011 08:04. Posts 379 | Profile # | |
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| Latedi Sweden. November 07 2011 10:08. Posts 1023 | Profile Blog # |
On November 07 2011 06:57 Xenomorph wrote:
Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 06:42 Latedi wrote:
On November 07 2011 06:35 Xenomorph wrote:
Whats a good timing/composition against a 2/3 base mass roach zerg player? Lets say on generally most medium maps. What is also a good timing to take a third against a zerg who takes a fast third against a FFE?
Get a stalker sentry army with support from immortals and/or colossi. This army easily deals with any amount of roaches but it will be more problematic once the zerg starts adding other units to the army. As for the third that really depends on what build you go for. It's quite standard to take it once you have a colossus or two out. But you can also take it with for example a 5gate robo or behind 6gate pressure.
Most of the time I see a lot of mass sling into mass roach so its odd getting a gate army that can deal with both on a 2-3 base without getting rolled.
Well yes, I assumed you had scouted mass roach. If you go up against roach ling you should add some zealots into the mix as well. Also colossi will be a lot more effective with the AoE I think. But against roaches you may want more of the immortals for the early mid game. |
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| Selendis Australia. November 07 2011 13:14. Posts 498 | Profile Blog # |
Any good tips on making sure you don't skip/delay warp-ins?
While I'm never so bad as to skip a warp-in entirely I often find myself behind a couple of seconds in the midgame (2+ bases and 6+ gates but well before 200/200 supply) and it really frustrates me knowing I could have won by now if that 600 post-warp-in mineral count was in zealots instead of in my bank account.
Are there any good customs specifically designed to help with this? Or any good in-game tricks to remember? Or should I just keep hitting "w" every couple of milliseconds? |
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| Mitchlew Australia. November 07 2011 14:38. Posts 426 | Profile # |
| Can somebody link me to good openings and transitions against Z. My usual stargate openings seem to have been worked out too well. Preferably something with blink / 6 gate pressure into expansion / tech. Ty. |
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| eugalp United States. November 07 2011 14:43. Posts 203 | Profile # |
On November 07 2011 14:38 Mitchlew wrote:
Can somebody link me to good openings and transitions against Z. My usual stargate openings seem to have been worked out too well. Preferably something with blink / 6 gate pressure into expansion / tech. Ty.
Try this:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=236230
Make sure to read through the entire thread as there are some good posts towards the end. |
| | "More GG more skill" - White-Ra |
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| Tingles Australia. November 07 2011 14:52. Posts 221 | Profile # |
On November 07 2011 13:14 Selendis wrote:
Any good tips on making sure you don't skip/delay warp-ins?
While I'm never so bad as to skip a warp-in entirely I often find myself behind a couple of seconds in the midgame (2+ bases and 6+ gates but well before 200/200 supply) and it really frustrates me knowing I could have won by now if that 600 post-warp-in mineral count was in zealots instead of in my bank account.
Are there any good customs specifically designed to help with this? Or any good in-game tricks to remember? Or should I just keep hitting "w" every couple of milliseconds?
I miss them all the time, but best way is to get yourself in a habit of what Day9 calls "the tap"
Pretty much just tap cycle through nexus robo forge units / whatever
just play like 20 games where your whole purpose of the game is to remember to hit W constantly to be checking for warpin times. Fuck winning loosing whatever. Just play vs a friend or something until you start pressing it without even thinking about it. It's part of your game plan to be tapping W.
Not really a trick .... and it's boring ... but needs to be done i guess T_T |
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| Supah November 07 2011 15:15. Posts 590 | Profile # |
| So against Mutas; you get your third base up, relatively OK. Probe count is decent (he didn't kill too many). You have Blink, but you also see he has 5 Bases vs your 3. What are your outs? What are you supposed to do? When do you move out? What unit composition? |
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| rsvp United States. November 07 2011 16:40. Posts 2076 | Profile Blog # |
On November 07 2011 15:15 Supah wrote:
So against Mutas; you get your third base up, relatively OK. Probe count is decent (he didn't kill too many). You have Blink, but you also see he has 5 Bases vs your 3. What are your outs? What are you supposed to do? When do you move out? What unit composition?
Even though he has 2 more bases than you, you could potentially still have a stronger army than him. If that is the case, then you can move out before 200 supply/deathball status, and try to kill the nearest mining expo he has while simultaenously sending zealots to another one of his expansions. Meanwhile you would leave a HT in each of your own mining bases, and possible some stalkers as well depending on how many mutas he has. Of course it can be hard to tell who has the army advantage but if you've been pretty successful in defending against the muta harass without losing too many stalkers/probes and managing to kill off some mutas and still getting your 3rd base relatively fast you should have the army advantage.
Your army composition should basically be zeal/stalker/ht against pure muta/ling. Don't preemptively make too many archons if any. Spend the gas on more stalkers, and keep a decent number of HT around (I usually keep around 3-4 with my army at this point but you could have more/less if you wish). You should only make archons after you storm, or if for some reason you have a ton of gas around. If he has tech switched to roaches then you would want to add in immortals.
If however you're behind, you should instead play defensively and try to secure a 4th while teching to a more late game comp. He should not be able to kill you with pure muta/ling, so he'll probably eventually get hive tech and add in brood lords or ultras so you have to prepare for that. So teching to something like colossus and/or voids and/or carriers and/or motherships is good. |
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| KenDM Netherlands. November 07 2011 21:49. Posts 201 | Profile # |
Hi guys,
I'm a Terran player looking to improve my TvP (all losses nowadays). I was wondering what you guys hate the most from Terran players when you yourself are going 1 base all in (4Gate, 3Gate robo, or VR's and the like).
So what kind of harass or push is lethal for you guys at such a moment. Also, when you guys are ready to push yourself, what makes you hold back or retreat? Bunkers? Tanks on high grounds?
Absolutely anything that can help me prepare for 1Base all-ins is welcome! |
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| Monasou United States. November 07 2011 22:18. Posts 218 | Profile Blog # |
On November 03 2011 19:09 mizU wrote:
Show nested quote +On November 03 2011 19:06 Tommylew wrote:
On November 03 2011 18:57 mizU wrote:
On November 03 2011 18:53 Tommylew wrote:
Hi what is the best counter to mass marine and banashee style? This could come as eithier an earlier rush or a 200/200 push, seems that when i went phoenix they died so quickly to target from marines and my groudn army got destoryed so quickly vs Banashee.
Did you forget about HT?
hmmm yes, I did, problem was that in the early push I couldnt of got HT out or I woudlnthave storm ready, but yeh your proabbly right i had time for the 200/200 push, Cheers. Forget about feedback on the banashees. At least if I meet it again I have an idea what to get!!
Mass banshee-marine is VERY difficult to deal with as an early all-in though... Especially when they mix in a raven. I still have trouble with it. Recently I barely won a game even after I made like 5 defensive cannons... I did lose my natural though. But at a certain point you can just counter with pure stalker if you defend. But I still have trouble with it. T.T
Raven + banshee + Marine All-ins are so stupid to defend as toss. There isn't anything to save you besides that one floating eye in the sky. I'm not sure how I would defend this, but stalker + cannon would be viable.
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| Supah November 07 2011 23:13. Posts 590 | Profile # |
On November 07 2011 16:40 coL.rsvp wrote:
Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 15:15 Supah wrote:
So against Mutas; you get your third base up, relatively OK. Probe count is decent (he didn't kill too many). You have Blink, but you also see he has 5 Bases vs your 3. What are your outs? What are you supposed to do? When do you move out? What unit composition?
Even though he has 2 more bases than you, you could potentially still have a stronger army than him. If that is the case, then you can move out before 200 supply/deathball status, and try to kill the nearest mining expo he has while simultaenously sending zealots to another one of his expansions. Meanwhile you would leave a HT in each of your own mining bases, and possible some stalkers as well depending on how many mutas he has. Of course it can be hard to tell who has the army advantage but if you've been pretty successful in defending against the muta harass without losing too many stalkers/probes and managing to kill off some mutas and still getting your 3rd base relatively fast you should have the army advantage. Your army composition should basically be zeal/stalker/ht against pure muta/ling. Don't preemptively make too many archons if any. Spend the gas on more stalkers, and keep a decent number of HT around (I usually keep around 3-4 with my army at this point but you could have more/less if you wish). You should only make archons after you storm, or if for some reason you have a ton of gas around. If he has tech switched to roaches then you would want to add in immortals. If however you're behind, you should instead play defensively and try to secure a 4th while teching to a more late game comp. He should not be able to kill you with pure muta/ling, so he'll probably eventually get hive tech and add in brood lords or ultras so you have to prepare for that. So teching to something like colossus and/or voids and/or carriers and/or motherships is good.
Strange how I asked this right before Hero played against it on Tal'darim. Hero does exactly what you said to do, but he still ended up losing, and it wasn't even from a BL/Ultra tech switch- he literally got Mutaling'd to death. It's an interesting game to watch, for sure.
Just a couple questions based on this line.. How come it's better to not make Archons? Is the threat of Storm that great? It seems like they're a great unit considering the mass ling mineral dump, as well as if you're late on reacting to a Roach switch. I suppose it is cheaper to use HTs though, and they help with army positioning a lot better than Archons do. What happens on a map that has a bitch of a fourth to take, something like Tal'darim? Is it worth it trying to snipe expos if they're cross map from each other, or would you recommend controlling the middle and just relying on the cost effectiveness of your units and eventually marching straight into the main? Sorry, lots of questions, haha. But lastly, do you think going for mass armor is preferable to trying to max damage? |
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 rEalGuapo Germany. November 08 2011 02:17. Posts 782 | Profile # |
On November 07 2011 23:13 Supah wrote:
Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 16:40 coL.rsvp wrote:
On November 07 2011 15:15 Supah wrote:
So against Mutas; you get your third base up, relatively OK. Probe count is decent (he didn't kill too many). You have Blink, but you also see he has 5 Bases vs your 3. What are your outs? What are you supposed to do? When do you move out? What unit composition?
Even though he has 2 more bases than you, you could potentially still have a stronger army than him. If that is the case, then you can move out before 200 supply/deathball status, and try to kill the nearest mining expo he has while simultaenously sending zealots to another one of his expansions. Meanwhile you would leave a HT in each of your own mining bases, and possible some stalkers as well depending on how many mutas he has. Of course it can be hard to tell who has the army advantage but if you've been pretty successful in defending against the muta harass without losing too many stalkers/probes and managing to kill off some mutas and still getting your 3rd base relatively fast you should have the army advantage. Your army composition should basically be zeal/stalker/ht against pure muta/ling. Don't preemptively make too many archons if any. Spend the gas on more stalkers, and keep a decent number of HT around (I usually keep around 3-4 with my army at this point but you could have more/less if you wish). You should only make archons after you storm, or if for some reason you have a ton of gas around. If he has tech switched to roaches then you would want to add in immortals. If however you're behind, you should instead play defensively and try to secure a 4th while teching to a more late game comp. He should not be able to kill you with pure muta/ling, so he'll probably eventually get hive tech and add in brood lords or ultras so you have to prepare for that. So teching to something like colossus and/or voids and/or carriers and/or motherships is good.
Strange how I asked this right before Hero played against it on Tal'darim. Hero does exactly what you said to do, but he still ended up losing, and it wasn't even from a BL/Ultra tech switch- he literally got Mutaling'd to death. It's an interesting game to watch, for sure. Just a couple questions based on this line.. How come it's better to not make Archons? Is the threat of Storm that great? It seems like they're a great unit considering the mass ling mineral dump, as well as if you're late on reacting to a Roach switch. I suppose it is cheaper to use HTs though, and they help with army positioning a lot better than Archons do. What happens on a map that has a bitch of a fourth to take, something like Tal'darim? Is it worth it trying to snipe expos if they're cross map from each other, or would you recommend controlling the middle and just relying on the cost effectiveness of your units and eventually marching straight into the main? Sorry, lots of questions, haha. But lastly, do you think going for mass armor is preferable to trying to max damage?
First, the most easy one.
Armor or Damage?
The more you rely on blink Stalkers, the better Armor gets, the more you rely on Archons the better the damage upgrade is.
But I would get at least 1 in Armor as soon as I scout Muta/Ling(most ofthe time by seeing Spines)
Archons or Storm. I would say Both, defenitely. I think you need one or two Archons to ensure that Zerg cant just snipe stuff and dodge the Storms that might then hurt yourself more than him. As for Storms, a single Storm can often times kill like 20 Lings or damage even more badly. Vs Mutas Storm is crazy good too, you always want to have 3-4 ready.
As to your expansion question, I would say it really depends.
If you are always kept low in food, you need a fourth, if however you can get to 200 supply on 3 bases relatively fast you might just go attack and kill him with good upgrades and guardian shield.
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| Teoita Italy. November 08 2011 02:20. Posts 4457 | Profile Blog # |
On November 07 2011 22:18 Monasou wrote:
Show nested quote +On November 03 2011 19:09 mizU wrote:
On November 03 2011 19:06 Tommylew wrote:
On November 03 2011 18:57 mizU wrote:
On November 03 2011 18:53 Tommylew wrote:
Hi what is the best counter to mass marine and banashee style? This could come as eithier an earlier rush or a 200/200 push, seems that when i went phoenix they died so quickly to target from marines and my groudn army got destoryed so quickly vs Banashee.
Did you forget about HT?
hmmm yes, I did, problem was that in the early push I couldnt of got HT out or I woudlnthave storm ready, but yeh your proabbly right i had time for the 200/200 push, Cheers. Forget about feedback on the banashees. At least if I meet it again I have an idea what to get!!
Mass banshee-marine is VERY difficult to deal with as an early all-in though... Especially when they mix in a raven. I still have trouble with it. Recently I barely won a game even after I made like 5 defensive cannons... I did lose my natural though. But at a certain point you can just counter with pure stalker if you defend. But I still have trouble with it. T.T
Raven + banshee + Marine All-ins are so stupid to defend as toss. There isn't anything to save you besides that one floating eye in the sky. I'm not sure how I would defend this, but stalker + cannon would be viable.
Completely and utterly wrong. Your cannons do absolutely NOTHING against tanks, as he can just siege them and destroy them before moving in. Congratulations, you now have lost hundreds of minerals that could have been zealots, for nothing. Also you want as few stalkers as possible, because 1) they actually suck in a straight up fight vs both tanks and marines, and 2) sometimes he will pop a raven for pdd. Stalkers are what you warp in as a reinforcement to clean up the remaining banshees, not to fight his first weave of marine/tank.
The way to hold off a 111 has been discussed for at length, and everyone agrees that the most reliable way to hold it is to fast expand (nex first or 1gate fe), and then pump immortals and 4-5 gates worth of zealots with as few sentries and stalkers as possible. See this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=250379
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| | Protoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright. | |
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| Whitewing United States. November 08 2011 05:01. Posts 5748 | Profile # |
On November 08 2011 02:20 Teoita wrote:
Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 22:18 Monasou wrote:
On November 03 2011 19:09 mizU wrote:
On November 03 2011 19:06 Tommylew wrote:
On November 03 2011 18:57 mizU wrote:
On November 03 2011 18:53 Tommylew wrote:
Hi what is the best counter to mass marine and banashee style? This could come as eithier an earlier rush or a 200/200 push, seems that when i went phoenix they died so quickly to target from marines and my groudn army got destoryed so quickly vs Banashee.
Did you forget about HT?
hmmm yes, I did, problem was that in the early push I couldnt of got HT out or I woudlnthave storm ready, but yeh your proabbly right i had time for the 200/200 push, Cheers. Forget about feedback on the banashees. At least if I meet it again I have an idea what to get!!
Mass banshee-marine is VERY difficult to deal with as an early all-in though... Especially when they mix in a raven. I still have trouble with it. Recently I barely won a game even after I made like 5 defensive cannons... I did lose my natural though. But at a certain point you can just counter with pure stalker if you defend. But I still have trouble with it. T.T
Raven + banshee + Marine All-ins are so stupid to defend as toss. There isn't anything to save you besides that one floating eye in the sky. I'm not sure how I would defend this, but stalker + cannon would be viable.
Completely and utterly wrong. Your cannons do absolutely NOTHING against tanks, as he can just siege them and destroy them before moving in. Congratulations, you now have lost hundreds of minerals that could have been zealots, for nothing. Also you want as few stalkers as possible, because 1) they actually suck in a straight up fight vs both tanks and marines, and 2) sometimes he will pop a raven for pdd. Stalkers are what you warp in as a reinforcement to clean up the remaining banshees, not to fight his first weave of marine/tank. The way to hold off a 111 has been discussed for at length, and everyone agrees that the most reliable way to hold it is to fast expand (nex first or 1gate fe), and then pump immortals and 4-5 gates worth of zealots with as few sentries and stalkers as possible. See this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=250379
He didn't say a 1/1/1, he said a marine/banshee all-in with a raven, like 2 port banshee. In that case, you DO need cannons, although I don't like stalkers against it, I much prefer throwing down a stargate and getting some phoenixes out with a heavy zealot count. |
| | ThorZaIN is an android sent from the future to destroy everyone and everything with his super advanced mechanics and strategies. ~Chill |
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| proerthantoss United Kingdom. November 08 2011 05:05. Posts 16 | Profile # |
| im struggling with PvT. i 3 gate agressive expo and it's worked fine until recently now terran started going mmm or mass marines with a few maruders and when even i hold off an attack, twenty seconds later theirs another one of the same size, it's ridiculous i cant do anything. any tips? these attacks generally hit before i have a collosus out |
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| Teoita Italy. November 08 2011 05:15. Posts 4457 | Profile Blog # |
On November 08 2011 05:05 proerthantoss wrote:
im struggling with PvT. i 3 gate agressive expo and it's worked fine until recently now terran started going mmm or mass marines with a few maruders and when even i hold off an attack, twenty seconds later theirs another one of the same size, it's ridiculous i cant do anything. any tips? these attacks generally hit before i have a collosus out
It sounds like you are having a few macro problems more than anything. Generally though:
If his push is off 1 base, you can contain him on one base with ff's until medivacs come out (8-9 ish minutes). If he isn't expanding i don't think it's wise to tech to colossus; i'd rather get a 4th gate, a robo for immortal support, and eventually zealot charge and forge upgrades, depending on how long he tries to 1base you. The reasoning for that is, if he's 1basing he could push you at any "random" time, and teching to colossus leaves a big windows of vulnerability for him to punish you.
If it's off 2 bases, it's possible for terrans to punish a protoss teching too fast to colosuss with say a 4rax attack delaying medivacs, or (possibly, not sure about this) with a fast 2 medivac push. The solution to that if you don't have really solid ff's is just to tech a bit slower, maybe get 1-2 immortals up and 4th gate up and running so that you have a few more units if he tries to push you.
Last edit: 2011-11-08 05:16:31 |
| | Protoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright. | |
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| proerthantoss United Kingdom. November 08 2011 06:24. Posts 16 | Profile # |
| thanks, when i see him gearing up for an attack and look at my army i automatically think i need collosus as a panic lol. |
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| Lafer United States. November 08 2011 07:10. Posts 112 | Profile # |
I have a question about my what other gold/plat league players do against zergs...
I rarely win when I do a FFE against a zerg, and I'm wondering what others do when they FFE, if they FFE at all... I can never get a probe back into the zerg base to see if they are going roaches, blings, or just massing lings. If the go fast roach because they see me go Forge first, i auto lose because I just don't have enough out at the time they hit. I've tried pushing out at the 9 minute mark to go do some harrass, and I just get overwhelmed with zerglings on the way out. Even when I got zealot heavy to push out, they just have so many more lings... If i sit back and try to get a big army off of a FFE, they just take the whole map.
Is it even worth it at these low leagues to FFE? Should I just be doing a 3 gate sentry expand? I've tried to go stargate behind it, and they just break it with banelings and lings running into my base. I can't kill the overload in my base fast enough to hide what I'm doing, and if I wait to kill it before doing anything, too much time has already passed.
Sorry it's so long, I'm just totally lost in the matchup. |
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| Latedi Sweden. November 08 2011 07:37. Posts 1023 | Profile Blog # |
On November 08 2011 05:01 Whitewing wrote:
Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 02:20 Teoita wrote:
On November 07 2011 22:18 Monasou wrote:
On November 03 2011 19:09 mizU wrote:
On November 03 2011 19:06 Tommylew wrote:
On November 03 2011 18:57 mizU wrote:
On November 03 2011 18:53 Tommylew wrote:
Hi what is the best counter to mass marine and banashee style? This could come as eithier an earlier rush or a 200/200 push, seems that when i went phoenix they died so quickly to target from marines and my groudn army got destoryed so quickly vs Banashee.
Did you forget about HT?
hmmm yes, I did, problem was that in the early push I couldnt of got HT out or I woudlnthave storm ready, but yeh your proabbly right i had time for the 200/200 push, Cheers. Forget about feedback on the banashees. At least if I meet it again I have an idea what to get!!
Mass banshee-marine is VERY difficult to deal with as an early all-in though... Especially when they mix in a raven. I still have trouble with it. Recently I barely won a game even after I made like 5 defensive cannons... I did lose my natural though. But at a certain point you can just counter with pure stalker if you defend. But I still have trouble with it. T.T
Raven + banshee + Marine All-ins are so stupid to defend as toss. There isn't anything to save you besides that one floating eye in the sky. I'm not sure how I would defend this, but stalker + cannon would be viable.
Completely and utterly wrong. Your cannons do absolutely NOTHING against tanks, as he can just siege them and destroy them before moving in. Congratulations, you now have lost hundreds of minerals that could have been zealots, for nothing. Also you want as few stalkers as possible, because 1) they actually suck in a straight up fight vs both tanks and marines, and 2) sometimes he will pop a raven for pdd. Stalkers are what you warp in as a reinforcement to clean up the remaining banshees, not to fight his first weave of marine/tank. The way to hold off a 111 has been discussed for at length, and everyone agrees that the most reliable way to hold it is to fast expand (nex first or 1gate fe), and then pump immortals and 4-5 gates worth of zealots with as few sentries and stalkers as possible. See this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=250379
He didn't say a 1/1/1, he said a marine/banshee all-in with a raven, like 2 port banshee. In that case, you DO need cannons, although I don't like stalkers against it, I much prefer throwing down a stargate and getting some phoenixes out with a heavy zealot count.
Are you sure you need cannons...? cannons are never good to make like that if you can avoid it. I remember meeting this on ladder once and i made like pure zealot stalker and a sentry or two for guardian shield and ended up defending it easily. Of course observers will also be useful if he has cloak which is why I'm not sure stargate is your best option. |
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