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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. | ThePianoDentist United Kingdom. February 21 2012 22:36. Posts 484 | Profile # |
On February 21 2012 17:25 Sated wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 15:18 ThePianoDentist wrote:
On February 21 2012 04:30 Sated wrote:
If you ignore the balance whining, that's a pretty accurate description of what happened. I didn't save the replay. Besides, it's more a general question than a game-specific question. Most replay analysis is "build more probes d00d", which isn't really helpful when I want advice on how to approach PvZ on that map knowing that this can happen.
As I say, I usually avoid that map like the plague, so I'm far from used to it.
so you're saying you don't bother to get any form of scouting whatsoever and then it's bullshit that he can go for a specific unit composition without you realising it? why don't you try 5 gate robo pressure into expand instead...or get hallucination....or do some stargate play...just anything where you are not playing blind
No, that's not what I'm saying. That implies that I'm not trying to scout. I am trying to scout, but not every Zerg is going to allow your Probes to get anywhere near their base. I guess what I'm saying is that it's hard to scout if the Zerg is active with their Zerglings, it's not like I'm purposefully playing blind. Throwing down a Robo early seems like a waste if they're going Mutalisks, but an earlier Observer could be an answer. At least I would know what's up. Stargate play is possibly another option, but I'm not particularly used to early Stargate plays. Phoenixes would give me a better way to scout and it is possible to deny a fast third with a Void-Ray +1 Zealot timing (should they attempt to get a fast third), so it would be a good style to learn. Anyway, this is why I was asking what people thought would be a better way to play the match-up, because I usually open with Gateway pressure and look to take a fast third, and that isn't going to work against this mass spine-crawler style... so I wanted people's opinions on the alternative options. Because I'm not familiar with them.
I was suggesting you maybe play a style with a method of scouting that lets you get a scout off almost always.
also you need a robo versus mutalisks at some point. early robo is fine versus mutalisks. defending mutas is a piece of cake with enough observers to always know where the muta ball is. plus if they go mass mass muta if theyre clever theyll mass spines as well for the inevitable base trade...where immortals are very very handy. as well as needing a warp prism for when you move out as it'll be almost impossible to get proxy pylons out against muta players.
or you could just sacrifice some of your pressure for a twilight council as you move out in case he goes mutas. hard to tell without seeing replays but your PvZ style does sound a bit risky and sketchy, it's more standard to get a robo and/or twilight before third because playing pure gateway versus hydralisks or some infestor ling type stuff is going to be quite nasty and I would imagine good zergs would punish and crush your fast expansion.
as an example from my point of view, it seems even if the zerg is doing standard 3 base roach/ling to start with...if he holds off your pressure and then counters are you going to be able to hold that third? it just seems like playing against better zergs you might as well just 6 gate all-in rather than doing a weaker attack with no tech that leaves you very vulnerable to counters if you don't crush him.
and yes I know it probably works well in diamond but that will mainly be down to zergs not being good enough to notice the timing window and exploit it rather than it being a great build. I may be wrong but that is just how I see it
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| | Brood War Protoss, SC2 Terran/Protoss |
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| Sated England. February 21 2012 22:37. Posts 3427 | Profile Blog # |
On February 21 2012 22:00 ARick wrote:
Hi i"m a silver protoss and i have no idea what to do versus zerg.If i forge fast expand they double expand and he has double the army of me.I srsly have no idea what to do versus zerg mainly cuz i almost never meet them on ladder.Anyone has some tips or tricks to play versus zerg?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=309780
This is the best idea. You should be scouting for the fast third from the moment you know their natural finished, and as soon as you see a fast third go down you need to be trying to hide some proxy pylons near-by.Last edit: 2012-02-21 22:37:44 |
| | EU Masters Protoss Playing For Team SC2Improve ~ www.sc2improve.org ~ "I'd rather play a strategy that is worse but that I feel confident in than play the better strategy not really feeling it and not being 100% behind it" - Grubby | |
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| ThePianoDentist United Kingdom. February 21 2012 22:43. Posts 484 | Profile # |
On February 21 2012 14:39 BFPinkerton wrote:
Recently my zerg practice buddy has been doing a build that has me stumped, I believe he said he copied it from LiquidSheth. He turtles on two base with mass upgraded lings and infestors, then he pushes out and attacks my third while taking a third a fourth at about the same time.
My usual style is to FFE into a quick third, unfortunately it's near impossible to take a third against mass lings unless you have the units to do it by force. Even then, a massling/ infested terran attack hurts a lot. Anyway, basically he goes up to brod lords really quickly and I have to spend so much money trying to expand that when his broodlord curropter infestor ling army comes I either lose or trade and then he attacks again and I lose.
Does anybody have experience playing against this type of style? Any help would be appreciated, replys can be added if need be.
with neural parasite nerf, just a standard sentry, stalker colossus deathball is very cost efficient against this style. I like to go double robo against it, just try and keep an eye on his tech and try and end the game before broodlords. if he is teching super-fast to broods then there should be a nice timing window to exploit. once brood are out if you missed the window its hard but doable. archon toilet can beat broods and also exploiting immobility of broodlords...try not to engage just try and walk round army to kill his outer expansions etc
+1 zealots destroy mass lings, so if you have that upgrade and a few gateways I don't think a fast third should be too much trouble. just keep zealots by morphing third but remember to wall in natural with another zealot against run-bys. and yes replays would help. depends how fast you mean by 'fast third' |
| | Brood War Protoss, SC2 Terran/Protoss |
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| Metak February 21 2012 23:53. Posts 101 | Profile # |
On February 21 2012 22:00 ARick wrote:
Hi i"m a silver protoss and i have no idea what to do versus zerg.If i forge fast expand they double expand and he has double the army of me.I srsly have no idea what to do versus zerg mainly cuz i almost never meet them on ladder.Anyone has some tips or tricks to play versus zerg?
Be a bit aggressive, don't just sit back in your base. If the zerg wants to expand, it means he will have to spend money on a hatchery, and larvae/money on additional drones to be able to mine from that third base. This means he will have to cut down on spending resources on his army.
One of the options is to get a relatively fast stargate and a void ray with a phoenix. He will most likely not have invested in hydralisks so you can put pressure on his third base and maybe kill it. If he defends with queens you can use your phoenix to lift it and kill it off with your voidray, further damaging his economy.
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| Sated England. February 22 2012 00:07. Posts 3427 | Profile Blog # |
On February 21 2012 22:36 ThePianoDentist wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 17:25 Sated wrote:
On February 21 2012 15:18 ThePianoDentist wrote:
On February 21 2012 04:30 Sated wrote:
If you ignore the balance whining, that's a pretty accurate description of what happened. I didn't save the replay. Besides, it's more a general question than a game-specific question. Most replay analysis is "build more probes d00d", which isn't really helpful when I want advice on how to approach PvZ on that map knowing that this can happen.
As I say, I usually avoid that map like the plague, so I'm far from used to it.
so you're saying you don't bother to get any form of scouting whatsoever and then it's bullshit that he can go for a specific unit composition without you realising it? why don't you try 5 gate robo pressure into expand instead...or get hallucination....or do some stargate play...just anything where you are not playing blind
No, that's not what I'm saying. That implies that I'm not trying to scout. I am trying to scout, but not every Zerg is going to allow your Probes to get anywhere near their base. I guess what I'm saying is that it's hard to scout if the Zerg is active with their Zerglings, it's not like I'm purposefully playing blind. Throwing down a Robo early seems like a waste if they're going Mutalisks, but an earlier Observer could be an answer. At least I would know what's up. Stargate play is possibly another option, but I'm not particularly used to early Stargate plays. Phoenixes would give me a better way to scout and it is possible to deny a fast third with a Void-Ray +1 Zealot timing (should they attempt to get a fast third), so it would be a good style to learn. Anyway, this is why I was asking what people thought would be a better way to play the match-up, because I usually open with Gateway pressure and look to take a fast third, and that isn't going to work against this mass spine-crawler style... so I wanted people's opinions on the alternative options. Because I'm not familiar with them.
I was suggesting you maybe play a style with a method of scouting that lets you get a scout off almost always. also you need a robo versus mutalisks at some point. early robo is fine versus mutalisks. defending mutas is a piece of cake with enough observers to always know where the muta ball is. plus if they go mass mass muta if theyre clever theyll mass spines as well for the inevitable base trade...where immortals are very very handy. as well as needing a warp prism for when you move out as it'll be almost impossible to get proxy pylons out against muta players. or you could just sacrifice some of your pressure for a twilight council as you move out in case he goes mutas. hard to tell without seeing replays but your PvZ style does sound a bit risky and sketchy, it's more standard to get a robo and/or twilight before third because playing pure gateway versus hydralisks or some infestor ling type stuff is going to be quite nasty and I would imagine good zergs would punish and crush your fast expansion. as an example from my point of view, it seems even if the zerg is doing standard 3 base roach/ling to start with...if he holds off your pressure and then counters are you going to be able to hold that third? it just seems like playing against better zergs you might as well just 6 gate all-in rather than doing a weaker attack with no tech that leaves you very vulnerable to counters if you don't crush him. and yes I know it probably works well in diamond but that will mainly be down to zergs not being good enough to notice the timing window and exploit it rather than it being a great build. I may be wrong but that is just how I see it
I'd never thought about early Robo-tech like that because it's unusual for me to get more than a couple of Observers when I'm up against a Zerg opponent. Having more eyes out on the map would definitely be useful against Mutalisk styles and being ready to pump out Immortals if they're not going for air-units is probably a good thing. I mean, I've heard that Immortals are pretty good against ground units.
I guess you'd throw down the Robo after the Cybernetics Core finishes and throw down the Twilight Council so that it finishes in line with +1 Attack if you wanted to play that kind of style?
6gate all-ins are definitely strong, especially if the Zerg tries to take a fast third and tech-up to Mutalisks, but I'm trying not to use them as often. I'm not even sure a 6gate could bust through the sheer number of Spine Crawlers the style I described throws down... but I suppose it is possible given how quickly +1 Zealots kill things.Last edit: 2012-02-22 00:10:09 |
| | EU Masters Protoss Playing For Team SC2Improve ~ www.sc2improve.org ~ "I'd rather play a strategy that is worse but that I feel confident in than play the better strategy not really feeling it and not being 100% behind it" - Grubby | |
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| ThePianoDentist United Kingdom. February 22 2012 00:41. Posts 484 | Profile # |
On February 22 2012 00:07 Sated wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 22:36 ThePianoDentist wrote:
On February 21 2012 17:25 Sated wrote:
On February 21 2012 15:18 ThePianoDentist wrote:
On February 21 2012 04:30 Sated wrote:
If you ignore the balance whining, that's a pretty accurate description of what happened. I didn't save the replay. Besides, it's more a general question than a game-specific question. Most replay analysis is "build more probes d00d", which isn't really helpful when I want advice on how to approach PvZ on that map knowing that this can happen.
As I say, I usually avoid that map like the plague, so I'm far from used to it.
so you're saying you don't bother to get any form of scouting whatsoever and then it's bullshit that he can go for a specific unit composition without you realising it? why don't you try 5 gate robo pressure into expand instead...or get hallucination....or do some stargate play...just anything where you are not playing blind
No, that's not what I'm saying. That implies that I'm not trying to scout. I am trying to scout, but not every Zerg is going to allow your Probes to get anywhere near their base. I guess what I'm saying is that it's hard to scout if the Zerg is active with their Zerglings, it's not like I'm purposefully playing blind. Throwing down a Robo early seems like a waste if they're going Mutalisks, but an earlier Observer could be an answer. At least I would know what's up. Stargate play is possibly another option, but I'm not particularly used to early Stargate plays. Phoenixes would give me a better way to scout and it is possible to deny a fast third with a Void-Ray +1 Zealot timing (should they attempt to get a fast third), so it would be a good style to learn. Anyway, this is why I was asking what people thought would be a better way to play the match-up, because I usually open with Gateway pressure and look to take a fast third, and that isn't going to work against this mass spine-crawler style... so I wanted people's opinions on the alternative options. Because I'm not familiar with them.
I was suggesting you maybe play a style with a method of scouting that lets you get a scout off almost always. also you need a robo versus mutalisks at some point. early robo is fine versus mutalisks. defending mutas is a piece of cake with enough observers to always know where the muta ball is. plus if they go mass mass muta if theyre clever theyll mass spines as well for the inevitable base trade...where immortals are very very handy. as well as needing a warp prism for when you move out as it'll be almost impossible to get proxy pylons out against muta players. or you could just sacrifice some of your pressure for a twilight council as you move out in case he goes mutas. hard to tell without seeing replays but your PvZ style does sound a bit risky and sketchy, it's more standard to get a robo and/or twilight before third because playing pure gateway versus hydralisks or some infestor ling type stuff is going to be quite nasty and I would imagine good zergs would punish and crush your fast expansion. as an example from my point of view, it seems even if the zerg is doing standard 3 base roach/ling to start with...if he holds off your pressure and then counters are you going to be able to hold that third? it just seems like playing against better zergs you might as well just 6 gate all-in rather than doing a weaker attack with no tech that leaves you very vulnerable to counters if you don't crush him. and yes I know it probably works well in diamond but that will mainly be down to zergs not being good enough to notice the timing window and exploit it rather than it being a great build. I may be wrong but that is just how I see it
I'd never thought about early Robo-tech like that because it's unusual for me to get more than a couple of Observers when I'm up against a Zerg opponent. Having more eyes out on the map would definitely be useful against Mutalisk styles and being ready to pump out Immortals if they're not going for air-units is probably a good thing. I mean, I've heard that Immortals are pretty good against ground units.I guess you'd throw down the Robo after the Cybernetics Core finishes and throw down the Twilight Council so that it finishes in line with +1 Attack if you wanted to play that kind of style? 6gate all-ins are definitely strong, especially if the Zerg tries to take a fast third and tech-up to Mutalisks, but I'm trying not to use them as often. I'm not even sure a 6gate could bust through the sheer number of Spine Crawlers the style I described throws down... but I suppose it is possible given how quickly +1 Zealots kill things.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=287970 here is an example of a very flexible PvZ opening and general style. I think with this (correct me if I'm wrong), you add your extra 3 gateways before robo or any other tech. this allows you to still put some pressure on with a 4 zealot warp in (hopefully before they have roaches out) getting robo straight away after cyber core isnt too necessary, especially if you were to follow the style of this build a super fast obs scout isnt going to change your plans too soon as the style is so flexible.
You can still get a relatively early third with this build off of 4/5 gates, robo and twilight council but it just lets you react tech wise quicker to what the zergs doing. if he's spamming roaches you can pump immortals, if muta you can start blink, skimping on detection?....make a dark shrine. see hydras, robo support bay, early twilight allows your upgrades to go unhindered. you may have less pure easy macro wins compared to your style due to getting the two tech structures before third base and not applying too much pressure to the zerg, but you're certainly not behind so it just requires better forcefields and engagements but playing this way you should never lose because the zerg did x strategy, you should only lose to being outplayed.
also with regards to the 6 gate I agree that I don't think it would work too well against a spine turtling 2 base zerg. I was just saying it seems your style, although hard to tell from not seeing replays, cuts tech like a 6 gate, but isn't as powerful. I know 6 gate cuts economy as well and you don't but that surely leaves you very vulnerable in the stage of the game where you have cut tech to focus on army and economyLast edit: 2012-02-22 00:44:41 |
| | Brood War Protoss, SC2 Terran/Protoss |
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| Teoita Italy. February 22 2012 02:26. Posts 4253 | Profile Blog # |
If i am up against a 111, and his push is really, really delayed (at my nat at 11-12 minutes rather than 9-10), should i start teching up/making more probes when i know he is delaying his push with a stalker or probe scout, or should one just keep pumping units? I am thinking as a general rule, "if he doesn't push by 11 ish minutes throw down a third gas and a robo bay, while adding 3 more probes" or something along those lines, does it make sense?
The annoying thing about 111 is that in many games it feels like you could have gotten colossus and range up in time, while other times they are so eager to kill you that you would just die if you tried, and it's impossible to know which one it is if you haven't played against the same guy before.
Also, what is the best response to 2base-type of allins, either marine/tank/banshee or marine/thor/banshee? In the first case, phoenixes feel almost mandatory because by the time he attacks he will have a crapton of banshees and stalkers end up not being effective, but at the same time you don't want to end up with phoenixes against thors...any tips or replays? |
| | Protoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright. |
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| Smat United States. February 22 2012 05:31. Posts 243 | Profile # |
In PvZ I have been doing a 4 gate zealot +1 timing that I like really well (unless they find both my probes, but I'm working on that), now the problem is I have no idea when to take a third when I either a) kill his third or b) fail to kill third. If I fail to kill the third the zerg usually follows up with roach spam, and I have no idea when it is safe to take a third. A lot of games I take it to fast with too few immortals and stalkers and end up losing all my sentries. Other times I wait to long and the zerg gets way ahead of me in economy. Advice?
Also, I really like transitioning into 2 robo for immortals, colosi, and warp prisms plus extra observers but does it make sense to do this before I have a third up (obviously if I had two robos on two base I would mainly be pumping immortals)? |
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| Sated England. February 22 2012 05:34. Posts 3427 | Profile Blog # |
On February 22 2012 02:26 Teoita wrote:
If i am up against a 111, and his push is really, really delayed (at my nat at 11-12 minutes rather than 9-10), should i start teching up/making more probes when i know he is delaying his push with a stalker or probe scout, or should one just keep pumping units? I am thinking as a general rule, "if he doesn't push by 11 ish minutes throw down a third gas and a robo bay, while adding 3 more probes" or something along those lines, does it make sense?
The annoying thing about 111 is that in many games it feels like you could have gotten colossus and range up in time, while other times they are so eager to kill you that you would just die if you tried, and it's impossible to know which one it is if you haven't played against the same guy before.
Also, what is the best response to 2base-type of allins, either marine/tank/banshee or marine/thor/banshee? In the first case, phoenixes feel almost mandatory because by the time he attacks he will have a crapton of banshees and stalkers end up not being effective, but at the same time you don't want to end up with phoenixes against thors...any tips or replays?
Unless they try to take an expansion, just keep pumping units. You have two Nexii and they have one Command Centre, plus you have chronoboost - you'll pull ahead in worker count very quickly after their attack fails. |
| | EU Masters Protoss Playing For Team SC2Improve ~ www.sc2improve.org ~ "I'd rather play a strategy that is worse but that I feel confident in than play the better strategy not really feeling it and not being 100% behind it" - Grubby | |
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| PeggyHill February 22 2012 07:22. Posts 1460 | Profile # |
What is the correct response vs. a 1 base stim & medivac terran?
I scouted 2 rax (with reactor on first) so went gate-robo-gate into nexus.
I then saw his push just as my nexus was finishing and cancelled it, because he had medivac and a big army. What would be the correct response? |
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| Serge89 Belgium. February 22 2012 08:09. Posts 37 | Profile # |
Hi guys ;-)
I got a huge problem in PvZ with the third base, so i ask u guys whats the best build which allow a safe third base, and do i have to push while taking it or just wait and defend ? Thanks |
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| TNK United States. February 22 2012 08:31. Posts 161 | Profile # |
Hello once again my fellow Protoss,
The most recent patch buffed the range of the phoenix by 2 and I am wondering will this affect pvp at all mainly phoenix vs phoenix play? Will it be worth it to get a fleet beacon if my opponent goes phoenix play? Thank you for reading this. |
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| PeggyHill February 22 2012 09:12. Posts 1460 | Profile # |
On February 22 2012 08:09 Serge89 wrote:
Hi guys ;-)
I got a huge problem in PvZ with the third base, so i ask u guys whats the best build which allow a safe third base, and do i have to push while taking it or just wait and defend ? Thanks
Depends on the map and what build the zerg is doing.
If zerg going roach, then you need colossus (3 or so). If zerg going muta, you need blink and templar. |
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| Sated England. February 22 2012 09:24. Posts 3427 | Profile Blog # |
On February 20 2012 19:19 Sated wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I was watching the EU Playhem cast that night and I saw  Honor doing a strange 2gate expansion in his PvT games against  Satiini. He essentially did the 3 Stalker Rush commonly seen in PvP, using one Chronoboost on his Warpgate Research and then one Chonoboost on the 2nd and 3rd Stalkers. He'd then get two more Stalkers from his Gateways whilst boosting out Warpgate Research, using his 5 Stalker force to pressure/scout the Terran whilst taking an expansion and placing down a Robotics Facility. The expansion and Robotics Facility were put down at the same time Warpgate Research finished. After this, he tech'd quickly to Colossus whilst staying on just 2 Gateways and saturating his expansion. I tried it out once this morning in a custom game against a Platinum Terran and it felt really solid. In this case the Terran went for a 3rax stim-timing and expanded behind it, which put him massively behind when his pressure did absolutely no damage, but I feel like you'd be able to hold 2rax reactor/tech-lab pressure just as easily. I didn't feel comfortable getting Colossus as quickly as Honor did - I got 2 Sentries as my 6th/7th units and I got a couple of Immortals from the Robotics Facility before throwing down my Colossus Den - but I did feel incredibly safe in the face of a relatively strong timing-attack from my opponent. The game ended with a 14 minute 3 Colossus push that I made to secure my third (late third, I know, but the game was on Xel'Naga Caverns!) and even through the Terran had an upgrade advantage, they weren't able to get out enough Vikings to prevent my Colossus melting their ground force. Anyway, it's all well and good me using this against a Terran in a lower league than me who was doing an inefficient build (a 3rax stim-timing followed by an expansion isn't exactly the smoothest build), but in Honor's games he was going up against a very good Terran who was doing gasless expansions, which meant that Honor's expansion was quite a bit behind. To make up for this, he used his initial Stalkers to pick at Satiini's bunkers and to force his SCVs off the mineral line to repair. He then picked away at the repairing SCVs, clawing back some of the Terran's advantage. This pressure, aside from killing workers and preventing mining, also meant that Satiini was pinned back in his main until he could get Stim, which is what I think gave Honor the time to rush out his tech. I was quite impressed with the build, even if Honor did eventually lose the series 2-1. Has anyone seen other players using this style or tried it out themselves? It isn't the same as the 2gate pressure ChiTa popularised (  2 Gateway Pressure into Expansion ) because you skip the Zealot and rush to 5 Stalkers, but the timing of the expansion is quite similar and you end up with a similarly-sized force to pressure with (even though you get Warpgates slower).
Nobody replied to this, so I guess either no one else has seen this style against Terran or no one else cares. In any case, I've been trying to tweak this build so that it feels smoother for the way I play. What I've found is that this build gives me an interesting "branch point" where I have a choice between expanding and throwing down a Robotics Facility or throwing down 2 additional Gateways for a total of 4. The "branch point" I've been using is whether or not the Terran takes their gas before they get their Orbital Command.
EDIT:
Moved the rest of the "guide" to my blog. It probably isn't good enough to be a "real" guide and I don't wanna clog up this thread (as pointed out in the post below mine): http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=314100Last edit: 2012-02-22 09:36:06 |
| | EU Masters Protoss Playing For Team SC2Improve ~ www.sc2improve.org ~ "I'd rather play a strategy that is worse but that I feel confident in than play the better strategy not really feeling it and not being 100% behind it" - Grubby | |
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| aZealot New Zealand. February 22 2012 09:29. Posts 1406 | Profile # |
| Don't be apologetic, dude. I think you may be better served making it into a proper thread, though? Maybe G/D or something like that? I'm not too clear on the thread posting guidelines etc. Discussion on your post may flood the thread and mean other posts requesting assistance are missed. So, start up a thread, mate. |
| | "Consider fully, act decisively" - Jigoro Kano |
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| Sated England. February 22 2012 09:31. Posts 3427 | Profile Blog # |
| You're probably right, but I don't really feel right posting a new thread when I don't really have that many decent replays yet. What I have is more a "proof of concept" than solid evidence. Wouldn't wanna clog up this thread with it, though, so maybe I'll post it as a blog? |
| | EU Masters Protoss Playing For Team SC2Improve ~ www.sc2improve.org ~ "I'd rather play a strategy that is worse but that I feel confident in than play the better strategy not really feeling it and not being 100% behind it" - Grubby | |
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| monk United States. February 22 2012 09:36. Posts 6831 | Profile Blog # |
On February 22 2012 09:31 Sated wrote:
You're probably right, but I don't really feel right posting a new thread when I don't really have that many decent replays yet. What I have is more a "proof of concept" than solid evidence. Wouldn't wanna clog up this thread with it, though, so maybe I'll post it as a blog?
It's not economical enough as a standard build. You compare it to MC's 1 gate fe, but that is already a very non-greedy build.
The reason people go 2 gate robo on maps like crossfire/dual sight is the ability to find out exactly what your opponent is doing and the ability to do a 2 base immortal allin. |
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| Krychek United States. February 22 2012 09:39. Posts 172 | Profile # |
| Hey sated, nice post about that build. I'm really curious about the original, the one from Honor. Did he uses 1 or 2 gases? If he went for 2, did he use heavy sentry or just a bunch? Thx in advance. |
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| Sated England. February 22 2012 09:54. Posts 3427 | Profile Blog # |
On February 22 2012 09:36 NrGmonk wrote:It's not economical enough as a standard build. You compare it to MC's 1 gate fe, but that is already a very non-greedy build. The reason people go 2 gate robo on maps like crossfire/dual sight is the ability to find out exactly what your opponent is doing and the ability to do a 2 base immortal allin.
You still end up with 2 Gateways, a Robotics and an expansion at around the same time as a 2gate Robo. This means that you should still have the option to do an Immortal all-in. I've not actually tried going for the all-in, but I do usually get Immortals before going for Colossus and if I instead threw down additional Gateways in time with my second or third Immortal completing then I'd have a pretty strong force to attack with.
I don't personally think this build would be too far behind a 2gate Robo economically (but I haven't got the knowledge, skill or experience to back that up!) and since it is meant to be a safe build rather than a greedy build, I don't mind that being the case. And like I said, if you're comfortable with 1gate FE then do that, this is just something I'm exploring because I am thoroughly uncomfortable with that style.
On February 22 2012 09:39 Krychek wrote:
Hey sated, nice post about that build. I'm really curious about the original, the one from Honor. Did he uses 1 or 2 gases? If he went for 2, did he use heavy sentry or just a bunch? Thx in advance.
He took an earlier second gas and went more Sentry heavy whilst setting up the expansion (to save minerals for the expansion) and then used the additional gas to tech-up quickly. I personally feel that it isn't as smooth a transition into the second base, but you're free to try it out because it definitely opens up your tech faster (more gas).Last edit: 2012-02-22 09:57:08 |
| | EU Masters Protoss Playing For Team SC2Improve ~ www.sc2improve.org ~ "I'd rather play a strategy that is worse but that I feel confident in than play the better strategy not really feeling it and not being 100% behind it" - Grubby | |
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| Belha Italy. February 23 2012 00:07. Posts 2363 | Profile # |
I have a question to top P's here, i'm just high master in na and suck at pvz.
I have some months of happiness with the 4g +1 zealot pressure variations (prism, void, dts) and now even the z's of my mediocre level are figuring out the roach timming to deal with those. The real problem is when you did no real damage (good z's will be prepared to the famous pressure), Z is on 3 bases with +65 drones, and you are in 2 with less army than them, AND their spire is about to pop out. My question is:
Aganist a Z that knows how to stop +1 pressure, whats the best follow up to a eco +1 pressure? Or is now even worth it to make the zealot pressure or just stargate Genius style?
I even started to faking +1 pressure (fast +1 close to an ovy, 3 gates close to an ovy, 2 zealot map scouting and so), and find out that some z's kinda weakened their "anti-timmings" defenses so now i'm going again for a variation of timmings in the match ups, but i miss the feeling of playing a macro game toe to toe with Z :´(
Any top master/gm sugestion? |
| | Please Blizz buff speevacs for TvP! |
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