I am a silver league protoss with a recent streak of epic failure in my late game. I have been working on my mechanics (still needs lots of work) and focusing on my macro but still manage to get into horrible engagements which clearly cost me the game. As an example:
In this PvP on shattered temple, after some favorable exchanges I manage to get way ahead. I max out at the 23 minute mark with 4 bases up and 2k mineral and 1k gas banked. Meanwhile, my opponent is at 111 supply. I have map control and decide to starve him economically. 10 minutes later I have 12k minerals banked and my opponent is still in a very defensive posture and still on 3 bases .... so I decide we should trade armies I attack move into his army and well ... lose a few minutes later.
First of all, I realized I was ahead but didn't quite understand how substantial it was. How can I improve upon that?
I know I attacked into a choke (and his colossus), didn't micro and still had a midgame army. Bad, bad, and bad ... but with proper micro, was that a fight I could win or at least have traded evenly?
I would be grateful for any other advice ...
thanks in advance from one embarrassed toss
we make post and then we defense it
Xaldarian Netherlands. March 11 2012 06:53. Posts 65
If you are maxed out poke at yournopponents army and dump low tech units to create an even bigger deathball. With that much money you should have more than 20 gateways. After anfight you can remax on archons and chargelots to reengage and capitilize on your now bigger army. Keep doing this till he has nothing and kill him. Also make sure he cant expand and have proxy pylons all over the map so you can reinforce anywhere and have vision of everything.
Those who lived in darkness have seen a great light
Hey, ive been doing a 3 stalker opening in pvp and going for blink obs. My question is when to transfer out of it and what into. Ive seen chargelot archon timings work well.
T.BonePickens United States. March 11 2012 07:29. Posts 48
Hey TL, I am coming back to SC2 after about a 2 month break. I am a mid diamond toss, and right now I have no idea what the meta game is like. I was just wondering what is standard now in all three match ups and if there are any good threads I should check out. Thanks :D
All Greatness begins Small
recklessfire United States. March 11 2012 07:34. Posts 354
On March 11 2012 07:24 LeakyBucket wrote: Hey, ive been doing a 3 stalker opening in pvp and going for blink obs. My question is when to transfer out of it and what into. Ive seen chargelot archon timings work well.
if hes going blind chargelot archon, or like a DT opening into chargelot archon, then you have to play super defensively. When he expands, you need to expand a bit later but using simcities to funnel his zealots. You can either continue to play defensively and go colossus and turtle like crazy while getting a huge colossus count or you see him going chargelot archon with no detection, you can throw your own dt shrine down and hope he doesnt get detection in time and auto win. If he decides to try to get colossus, you already have the tech advantage so you should be fine.
Now should he choose not to expand at all and is going to all in, you should have been already seen this coming through your observer so you should just wall off your ramp (sentries arent so useful against archons) and tech to colossus. You dont need range, just get 2-3 colossus and his zealots will melt.
kcdc United States. March 11 2012 07:41. Posts 2311
Lategame PvP is different than the rest of the MU's in that economy doesn't matter all that much. You can easily win with 3 bases against 4 if you max out with the right composition (usually means more colossi than he has) and control well. In your case where you're up 90 supply, you obviously should have just attacked, but at the point that he got maxed, you have to be thinking along the lines that the game is essentially even despite the fact that you have way more resources banked. The one big way to convert an economic lead into a military lead is to get a mothership, but given enough time, he'll be able to do the same. But you'll definitely have a timing attack when you hit 100 energy.
Beyond just telling you to attack when you can kill him, I'll give you some general lategame PvP advice. Winning lategame PvP is 99% about positioning and mitigating splash damage. Here are the 3 keys to colossus wars:
-Before you get into a fight, make sure your army is not balled up underneath your colossi. This doubles the damage you take from the first shots, and it guarantees a loss unless your opponent makes the same mistake.
-To the extent that you're able, try to spread your colossi in an arc before engaging. This is tough, and in silver league, it probably won't happen, but it's something you should at least be trying to do as it makes a big difference.
-Warp in units as soon as the fight starts and you lose those first few zealots. If you have resources and time, make 20 gates since this is effectively 40 supply on top of you 200/200 army.
And now for my top-secret advice that I see pros screw up all the time:
-In the fight, micro alternating colossi one step forward between their shots. If you have 8 colossi standing in a line together, the opponent's colossi will hit 3 of yours with each shot. But if you move 1 colossus just a step forward, that colossus will be automatically targeted since its closer, and since it's not in the line, you'll take no splash damage. This cuts colossus-on-colossus damage by 67%, and it's much easier than trying to spread colossi sideways or microing them backwards.
ThePianoDentist United Kingdom. March 11 2012 08:25. Posts 484
On March 10 2012 18:01 Lafer wrote: Can anyone give me any hints on how to use a warp prism effectively? When playing against zerg, I usually end up floating a about 1k minerals at midgame because I'm nabbing upgrades, getting blink/charge, storm, and warping in high templar for storms and archons. I don't have much gas to spare, but I sure can do with getting rid of those minerals.
Because of this, I want to start using warp prisms more so that I can sink a bit of those minerals into zealot harass, but the couple of times that I have tried it, it just gets smashed and ends up looking silly.
Are there specific locations I should be looking for, such as the back of the main, or go straight for the third?
another way to spend these mid-game minerals is to simply spend them on taking your 4th quicker and cannoning it up since this will give you that much vital extra gas income as soon as it finishes. don't forget to spend lots of your minerals on additional gateways as well though....even if you don't need the extra production right now you will later.
also it is fined the zealot harass getting smashed if you utilise some of his units being out of position to pressure other bases, or simply buy time.
I know when he has broodlords out i will just suicide zealots to keep a lot of his roach force sat in his bases meaning he won't be feeling confident enough to attack me with his deathball while so many of his forces are defending drops, all the while using this time to get my mothership out with vortex energy.
Hey platnium player here. I've always played Brotoss but recently i've been having serious trouble against terran in late game. I usually go for storms if they go mass bio which is usually what i encounter but it always seems that towards the end of the game they have economic advantage, with mules and what not, and my probes numbers being lower than during mid game due to drops. Terran always seem to be able to re macro an army faster than me even if we are on same base. (I usually have 3-4 gates per base). What am I doing wrong? I always get upgrades too. Should I try to warp prism harrass or blink stalker into their mineral lines? Please help me! I cannot win atm :'(
Four gate for days
CTRhode United States. March 11 2012 17:40. Posts 8
I've been out of the game for a while and just came back - 14 gas pool is killing me in PvZ. If I try to 4gate or go for a blink push it feels like I'm screwed if I don't kill the expo. I usually just see a ton of spines at the front and its a toss-up for the win.
If I try FFE it feels like he just takes a third and I'm in the same place - trying to kill an expo with 50/50 success rate. Except he usually has better tech by then, or mutas, and I either get out-macro'd or harassed to death. What do?
I've been out of the game for a while and just came back - 14 gas pool is killing me in PvZ. If I try to 4gate or go for a blink push it feels like I'm screwed if I don't kill the expo. I usually just see a ton of spines at the front and its a toss-up for the win.
If I try FFE it feels like he just takes a third and I'm in the same place - trying to kill an expo with 50/50 success rate. Except he usually has better tech by then, or mutas, and I either get out-macro'd or harassed to death. What do?
Try some sentry expand variaton, or maybe 2gate stargate or dt expand. 1basing is awful in pvz regardless of the zerg opening.
Hey platnium player here. I've always played Brotoss but recently i've been having serious trouble against terran in late game. I usually go for storms if they go mass bio which is usually what i encounter but it always seems that towards the end of the game they have economic advantage, with mules and what not, and my probes numbers being lower than during mid game due to drops. Terran always seem to be able to re macro an army faster than me even if we are on same base. (I usually have 3-4 gates per base). What am I doing wrong? I always get upgrades too. Should I try to warp prism harrass or blink stalker into their mineral lines? Please help me! I cannot win atm :'(
I'd need to see replays, but it sounds like you don't have enough infrastrcture. When you first max out, get up a LOT of gateways (20+). This will allow you to remax faster than the terran. Also i think you should replace the probes you do lose to drops; keeping 70ish up is always a good idea because then you have the economy to remax even if you do lose a single engagement. Only sacrifice probes if the map starts mining out imo (not sure on this). Fancy harass isn't really necessary but i guess you can try to play around with dt's in lategame, they are surprisingly effective and they do limit the number of mules a terran has available.
Protoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
Does anyone have a replay where Terran opening with Hellions doesn't result in lots of Probes dying? Wanna learn how you're suppose to defend against them when they're dropped in your main and you're having to split your army between your main and natural - seems like Stalkers kill them so slowly that they always deal damage before the rest of your Stalkers can get back to help.
Someone must know how to deal with this!
Last edit: 2012-03-12 04:55:33
EU Masters Protoss Playing For Team SC2Improve ~ www.sc2improve.org ~ "I'd rather play a strategy that is worse but that I feel confident in than play the better strategy not really feeling it and not being 100% behind it" - Grubby
whistle United States. March 12 2012 04:52. Posts 139
Can anyone reference a recent GSL PvZ with FFE into 6/7 gate immortal? I need to learn some all-ins but I don't know the timing for this build when executed optimally. I've been hitting around 12 minutes but I know that is late because sometimes my opponent has mutas in my mineral line by the time I attack... rather than simply blindly cut corners to make the build faster I'd like to know what timing is used in the pro scene.
edit: Sated, I have a replay but the terran goofed hardcore (zero hellion micro, didn't even look at the drop) so I'll leave the replay uploading to someone else. What I do is keep most of my probes inside my main and leave 3-4 stalkers in my main mineral line. I've tried being clever and putting stalkers along drop paths but sometimes they take a different path and you're boned. Keep zealot/sentry(/immortal when I get it) at the natural, simcity a bit with pylons, run up the ramp and FF if needed. When I get a few warpins of units I feel comfortable defending my natural so I transfer excess probes then. Hopefully this helps a bit at least before someone better responds :o
On March 12 2012 04:44 Sated wrote: Does anyone have a replay where Terran opening with Hellions doesn't result in lots of Probes dying? Wanna learn how you're suppose to defend against them when they're dropped in your main and you're having to split your army between your main and natural - seems like Stalkers kill them so slowly that they always deal damage before the rest of your Stalkers can get back to help.
Someone must know how to deal with this!
I always wall off the side of my mineral line where hellions could come from with my first few buildings; after that if he does drop hellions they have to run all the way around to get in the probe line, and just 3 ish stalkers in there are enough to do enough damage to prevent many probe kills.
On maps where that isn't possible (say could kingdom) i still wall off half of the mineral line and leave stalkers to kind of plug the holes, which does help a lot.
The scary part is when he runs in the hellions from the front while dropping 8 marines. I think i would be fine if i didn't suck and saw the drop in time (putting like 6 stalkers where the marines are going to be coming from instead of 3-4), but i am not sure.
Cecil is awesome
Last edit: 2012-03-12 05:09:08
Protoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
kcdc United States. March 12 2012 05:12. Posts 2311
On March 12 2012 04:44 Sated wrote: Does anyone have a replay where Terran opening with Hellions doesn't result in lots of Probes dying? Wanna learn how you're suppose to defend against them when they're dropped in your main and you're having to split your army between your main and natural - seems like Stalkers kill them so slowly that they always deal damage before the rest of your Stalkers can get back to help.
Someone must know how to deal with this!
I don't have a replay, but I've been frustrated by this hellions as well. What works best for me is if I scout signs of tech play, I keep 3 stalkers inside my mineral line at my main while I sit the rest of my force (mostly zealots with at least 1 sentry) at my natural. I used to keep the stalkers on an edge of my main where I thought the drop would land, but they'd always seem to find a way to drop and then I'd wind up chasing the hellions to my mineral line.
Remember to hotkey those 3 stalkers separately from your main army since you won't be able to box click them without selecting probes. Also remember to focus fire--it only takes 3 rounds per hellion if you focus fire.
If you do this, you shouldn't lose more than a few probes. It's most often a 3 hellion drop and it takes all 3 hellions to 1-shot probes. If you see them dropping, you can usually focus down 1 of the hellions before they get a collected shot off.
If hellions instead attack your natural, you should be able to shut them down with forcefields.
hey guys, i m high master eu and i ve just started to play ffe. now i don t know any transitions after i ve defended a 6 pool with a cannon in my minerals. can anybody give me some strategies, transitions or sth like that, plz?
cheers
kcdc United States. March 12 2012 05:17. Posts 2311
On March 12 2012 04:44 Sated wrote: Does anyone have a replay where Terran opening with Hellions doesn't result in lots of Probes dying? Wanna learn how you're suppose to defend against them when they're dropped in your main and you're having to split your army between your main and natural - seems like Stalkers kill them so slowly that they always deal damage before the rest of your Stalkers can get back to help.
Someone must know how to deal with this!
I always wall off the side of my mineral line where hellions could come from with my first few buildings; after that if he does drop hellions they have to run all the way around to get in the probe line, and just 3 ish stalkers in there are enough to do enough damage to prevent many probe kills.
On maps where that isn't possible (say could kingdom) i still wall off half of the mineral line and leave stalkers to kind of plug the holes, which does help a lot.
The scary part is when he runs in the hellions from the front while dropping 8 marines. I think i would be fine if i didn't suck and saw the drop in time (putting like 6 stalkers where the marines are going to be coming from instead of 3-4), but i am not sure.
Cecil is awesome
I used to do that building positioning when hellion drops were common, but it screws you against banshees and MM drops. Now I focus on keeping all the paths in my main open so that I can chase banshees with stalkers and fight mid-game drops with zealots. Overall, I think simcity-ing your main hurts more than it helps.
Last edit: 2012-03-12 05:17:44
kcdc United States. March 12 2012 05:22. Posts 2311
On March 12 2012 05:14 ichunddu9 wrote: hey guys, i m high master eu and i ve just started to play ffe. now i don t know any transitions after i ve defended a 6 pool with a cannon in my minerals. can anybody give me some strategies, transitions or sth like that, plz?
cheers
I've been asking around about this myself. What I've been told is that you should first confirm that another all-in isn't coming (easy since 6 pool doesn't get fast gas) and 1 gate FE. Alternatively, you can proxy 2 gates and force the fight while you're ahead in workers.
nyaru267 United States. March 12 2012 05:33. Posts 117
On March 12 2012 05:14 ichunddu9 wrote: hey guys, i m high master eu and i ve just started to play ffe. now i don t know any transitions after i ve defended a 6 pool with a cannon in my minerals. can anybody give me some strategies, transitions or sth like that, plz?
cheers
I've been asking around about this myself. What I've been told is that you should first confirm that another all-in isn't coming (easy since 6 pool doesn't get fast gas) and 1 gate FE. Alternatively, you can proxy 2 gates and force the fight while you're ahead in workers.
1 gate fe? i m not sure whether this is possible without getting punished in maps like taldarim. what i ve heard of from a clanmate is, that i should go for a voidray expand. he said, you can do damage because the zerg is behind in tech and just has 1-2 queens. what do you think about that?
monk United States. March 12 2012 06:02. Posts 6788
On March 12 2012 05:14 ichunddu9 wrote: hey guys, i m high master eu and i ve just started to play ffe. now i don t know any transitions after i ve defended a 6 pool with a cannon in my minerals. can anybody give me some strategies, transitions or sth like that, plz?
cheers
I've been asking around about this myself. What I've been told is that you should first confirm that another all-in isn't coming (easy since 6 pool doesn't get fast gas) and 1 gate FE. Alternatively, you can proxy 2 gates and force the fight while you're ahead in workers.
1 gate fe? i m not sure whether this is possible without getting punished in maps like taldarim. what i ve heard of from a clanmate is, that i should go for a voidray expand. he said, you can do damage because the zerg is behind in tech and just has 1-2 queens. what do you think about that?
The idea behind a 6 pool is that the zerg forces you to go for a 1 base opening, but sacrifices a bit of econ to do so. So think of it like it's a normal game except you're forced to open on 1 base, but your opponent starts with 5 drones instead of 6.
Just like a normal game, you want to scout your opponent's gas timing with your initial scouting probe. If he takes a relatively early gas, then you have to 3/4 gate expand. If he doesn't, go for 1 gate expand. I also personally like a stargate followup, as you can sometimes deny a 3rd, stop roach/ling allins, and be setup for the common muta play. See Genius vs Nestea on Talderim from the GSL for an example.
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I attack move into his army and well ... lose a few minutes later.
