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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. | Sated England. May 10 2012 20:24. Posts 3362 | Profile Blog # |
On May 10 2012 20:01 TheExodus wrote:
This may be a stupid question, but if I go for MCs 1-gate FE and my scouting probe doesn't find a CC under construction anywhere, should I cancel my nexus and throw down extra gateways instead?
I just got bearmauled by a terran with the same food count but who had 28 workers built compared to my 43, who built his rax on 12,19 and 21...
Nope. Just use one of the safer versions of MC's build. Warpgate should be done by the time a 3rax hits and you'll have 3gateways worth of units to defend with, along with all the Probes at your natural (you can pull all those Probes and still be ahead because you have two bases to produce Probes from).Last edit: 2012-05-10 21:23:36 |
| | EU Masters Protoss Playing For Team SC2Improve ~ www.sc2improve.org ~ "I'd rather play a strategy that is worse but that I feel confident in than play the better strategy not really feeling it and not being 100% behind it" - Grubby | |
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| TheExodus May 10 2012 20:41. Posts 293 | Profile # |
On May 10 2012 20:24 Sated wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 20:01 TheExodus wrote:
This may be a stupid question, but if I go for MCs 1-gate FE and my scouting probe doesn't find a CC under construction anywhere, should I cancel my nexus and throw down extra gateways instead?
I just got bearmauled by a terran with the same food count but who had 28 workers built compared to my 43, who built his rax on 12,19 and 21...
Nope. Just use one of the safer versions of MC's build. Warpgate should be done by the time a 3rax hits and you'll have 3gateways worth of units to defend with, along with all the Probes at your natural (you can pull all those Probes and still be ahead because you have two bases to produce Probes from.
I keep forgetting I can pull probes for defending... His army was a mix of 2/3 marines and 1/3 marauders. Do you know if there's a replay of someone defending this so I can see how it's done? I keep getting my little army smashed while warping in my reinforcements, which may be because I didnt' pull a single probe, but I'd still like to see someone handle it.
Oh, and he had concussive shells, the bastard... |
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| Rimak Latvia. May 10 2012 21:11. Posts 408 | Profile # |
On May 10 2012 20:41 TheExodus wrote:
I keep forgetting I can pull probes for defending... His army was a mix of 2/3 marines and 1/3 marauders. Do you know if there's a replay of someone defending this so I can see how it's done? I keep getting my little army smashed while warping in my reinforcements, which may be because I didnt' pull a single probe, but I'd still like to see someone handle it.
Oh, and he had concussive shells, the bastard...
That's why pulling probes is needed.
Probes are quite effective against not-upgraded marines, so he will be forced to micro, or probes will eat hm alive, and concussive doesn't do much against bunch of probes.
Also time is runnning in your favor, the longer he is forced to run back-forth from your probes and troops, the more warp-ins you will be able to do. If he is smart, he'll pull back after losing rauder(or both) and will try to upgrade his eco and later do a medivac timing with drop/double-drop.
But if he keeps the pressure he will start losing forces to your warp-ins, and eventually you can transition into 2 base immortal timing.
3 rax is very allin vs FE toss, until he kills your 2nd nexi, you are ahead.Last edit: 2012-05-10 21:14:40 |
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| TheExodus May 10 2012 21:32. Posts 293 | Profile # |
On May 10 2012 21:11 Rimak wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 20:41 TheExodus wrote:
I keep forgetting I can pull probes for defending... His army was a mix of 2/3 marines and 1/3 marauders. Do you know if there's a replay of someone defending this so I can see how it's done? I keep getting my little army smashed while warping in my reinforcements, which may be because I didnt' pull a single probe, but I'd still like to see someone handle it.
Oh, and he had concussive shells, the bastard...
That's why pulling probes is needed. Probes are quite effective against not-upgraded marines, so he will be forced to micro, or probes will eat hm alive, and concussive doesn't do much against bunch of probes. Also time is runnning in your favor, the longer he is forced to run back-forth from your probes and troops, the more warp-ins you will be able to do. If he is smart, he'll pull back after losing rauder(or both) and will try to upgrade his eco and later do a medivac timing with drop/double-drop. But if he keeps the pressure he will start losing forces to your warp-ins, and eventually you can transition into 2 base immortal timing. 3 rax is very allin vs FE toss, until he kills your 2nd nexi, you are ahead.
Do I just attack move the probes behind his army? |
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| Rimak Latvia. May 10 2012 21:48. Posts 408 | Profile # |
On May 10 2012 21:32 TheExodus wrote:
Do I just attack move the probes behind his army?
Well yes, it's very similar to ling surround.
Usually you are able to flank him, but if you manage to get behind his army it's very neat.
If you have micro available Shift-target stalkers to shoot down rauders and try to pull behind units with depleted shields.
Also almost forgot it's very important to push him away from your nat, otherwise he may be able to get bunkers.
If he brings all his scv's with him don't be afraid to pull all your probes.Last edit: 2012-05-10 21:49:06 |
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| TheExodus May 10 2012 22:17. Posts 293 | Profile # |
On May 10 2012 21:48 Rimak wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 21:32 TheExodus wrote:
Do I just attack move the probes behind his army?
Well yes, it's very similar to ling surround. Usually you are able to flank him, but if you manage to get behind his army it's very neat. If you have micro available Shift-target stalkers to shoot down rauders and try to pull behind units with depleted shields. Also almost forgot it's very important to push him away from your nat, otherwise he may be able to get bunkers. If he brings all his scv's with him don't be afraid to pull all your probes.
What I meant was should I just a-move my probes, no manual splitting them or anything, just a-move them straight into his army? |
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| Rimak Latvia. May 10 2012 22:22. Posts 408 | Profile # |
On May 10 2012 22:17 TheExodus wrote:
What I meant was should I just a-move my probes, no manual splitting them or anything, just a-move them straight into his army?
It's better to just move them, and attack when you are in flank, or aleready surrounded him. |
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| -Celestial- United Kingdom. May 10 2012 22:28. Posts 789 | Profile # |
Here's a question to ponder: when going robo into colossi does anyone have any idea what are "optimal" numbers for immortals before you switch to colossus production.
I only ask because I started thinking about it after a game I was playing last night. I ended up smashing my opponent despite losing several early engagements after he just kept building immortals (and massing sentries for some weird reason) whilst I got out like...six colossi and melted his army. But I've also found in my own play that Immortals can actually perform pretty damn well against colossi (I took out a ten colossus-backed gateway force with a very immortal-heavy gateway composition a little while back, eventually losing because he was a base ahead).
So are there any kind of ideal immortal numbers or is it all just guesswork? |
| | "Protoss simultaneously feels unbeatably strong and unwinnably weak." - kcdc |
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| polysciguy United States. May 10 2012 22:53. Posts 482 | Profile # |
| I remember this build hitting in one of the major tourneys and i just ran into it, but i dont remember how youre supposed to hold it. 4 rax pure marine, i went 1gate fe, i tried to get archons out but didnt have the gas. He hit with stim being done. My question is, is it archons i need to get or do i rush colo? |
| | glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever---napoleon |
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| Rimak Latvia. May 10 2012 23:15. Posts 408 | Profile # |
On May 10 2012 22:28 Lightspeaker wrote:
Here's a question to ponder: when going robo into colossi does anyone have any idea what are "optimal" numbers for immortals before you switch to colossus production.
I only ask because I started thinking about it after a game I was playing last night. I ended up smashing my opponent despite losing several early engagements after he just kept building immortals (and massing sentries for some weird reason) whilst I got out like...six colossi and melted his army. But I've also found in my own play that Immortals can actually perform pretty damn well against colossi (I took out a ten colossus-backed gateway force with a very immortal-heavy gateway composition a little while back, eventually losing because he was a base ahead).
So are there any kind of ideal immortal numbers or is it all just guesswork?
Which MU?
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| -Celestial- United Kingdom. May 10 2012 23:18. Posts 789 | Profile # |
On May 10 2012 23:15 Rimak wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 22:28 Lightspeaker wrote:
Here's a question to ponder: when going robo into colossi does anyone have any idea what are "optimal" numbers for immortals before you switch to colossus production.
I only ask because I started thinking about it after a game I was playing last night. I ended up smashing my opponent despite losing several early engagements after he just kept building immortals (and massing sentries for some weird reason) whilst I got out like...six colossi and melted his army. But I've also found in my own play that Immortals can actually perform pretty damn well against colossi (I took out a ten colossus-backed gateway force with a very immortal-heavy gateway composition a little while back, eventually losing because he was a base ahead).
So are there any kind of ideal immortal numbers or is it all just guesswork?
Which MU?
I thought it was obvious from my mention of colossi vs immortal wars. 
PvPLast edit: 2012-05-10 23:18:57 |
| | "Protoss simultaneously feels unbeatably strong and unwinnably weak." - kcdc |
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| Rimak Latvia. May 10 2012 23:26. Posts 408 | Profile # |
On May 10 2012 23:18 Lightspeaker wrote:
PvP
IMO 1, max 2 immos, to deflect early blink, then colo, colo, colo!
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| polysciguy United States. May 10 2012 23:30. Posts 482 | Profile # |
On May 10 2012 23:26 Rimak wrote:IMO 1, max 2 immos, to deflect early blink, then colo, colo, colo!
I have to agree, though i have seen 3-4 at times. The only time i see more is with air openings
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| | glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever---napoleon |
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| -Celestial- United Kingdom. May 10 2012 23:45. Posts 789 | Profile # |
On May 10 2012 23:30 polysciguy wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 23:26 Rimak wrote:
On May 10 2012 23:18 Lightspeaker wrote:
PvP
IMO 1, max 2 immos, to deflect early blink, then colo, colo, colo!
I have to agree, though i have seen 3-4 at times.
I've seen that as well, which is why I'm curious if theres a consensus.
Honestly I've gone up to six or even eight before today (for the lulz) and it doesn't half pack a punch. People don't expect you to be heavy on the immortals and they incredibly solid units.
Wonder if a robo-heavy army (a la Terran mech) might be viable (with Stalker support, naturally). |
| | "Protoss simultaneously feels unbeatably strong and unwinnably weak." - kcdc |
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| Lafer United States. May 11 2012 00:26. Posts 112 | Profile # |
In PvP, when is a good time to expand? I open 2 gate robo ,pump an immortal followed by 2 obs, one I send to his base and the other I keep in case he sends dts. By this time I have enough for an expo, so I try to throw it down. If I am not bothered, I get the lead and I win in the end, but if he is doing some kind of delayed push, which happens in about 75% of my games, I lose.
Should I just wait until they expand to throw down an expo? My compisition is mostly sentries, an immortal or 2, and a few zealots while I expand. Even with force fields, I'll still lose to a number of builds. Am I just doing it wrong? |
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| TheExodus May 11 2012 00:55. Posts 293 | Profile # |
On May 11 2012 00:26 Lafer wrote:
In PvP, when is a good time to expand? I open 2 gate robo ,pump an immortal followed by 2 obs, one I send to his base and the other I keep in case he sends dts. By this time I have enough for an expo, so I try to throw it down. If I am not bothered, I get the lead and I win in the end, but if he is doing some kind of delayed push, which happens in about 75% of my games, I lose.
Should I just wait until they expand to throw down an expo? My compisition is mostly sentries, an immortal or 2, and a few zealots while I expand. Even with force fields, I'll still lose to a number of builds. Am I just doing it wrong?
It's very hard to say without replays. Remember to build more gates while the nexus is building, chrono them probes and don't miss any warpin cycles. You should be able to saturate the other base fairly soon after it's done building.
You do need stalkers too while defending in PvP though, as your zealots are useless when you have forcefielded your ramp.
Edit: If you have enough minerals to plant your nexus while constantly producing units and probes it doesn't really matter if you delay your expansion, you still won't have more units  You could do a 3-gate robo though in case he goes for some kind of all-in. You won't be able to sustain production out of everything, but you can have more units earlier and just add 3 gates instead of 4 when you finally expand.Last edit: 2012-05-11 00:57:32 |
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| ImSoSerious United States. May 11 2012 12:00. Posts 6 | Profile # |
| I have a problem: for PvRandom, I am usually fine with 1gate tech in PvP and PvT, which would go into 3stalker rush and 1gateFE respectively. Unfortunately, I regularly use FFE against Zerg. I have tried putting my pylon on low ground first to be prepared for a zerg opponent, sometimes I would see my opponent is a terran and, guess what, I get killed. A similar story occurs whenever I face a protoss opponent. Then, I tried walling in my main, which was pretty safe, I think. But that then gave my zerg random opponent time to expand and beat me in economy. I have tried pressuring in my one base while expanding, but alas, he had more units and I got steam rolled. My question is, what opening should I do to be flexible for all three matchups? Should I learn 3 gate fast expand for PvR(Z)? Please and thank you:DD |
| | Live life to the fullest. |
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 Wombat_NI Northern Ireland. May 11 2012 13:43. Posts 5145 | Profile # |
On May 11 2012 12:00 ImSoSerious wrote:
I have a problem: for PvRandom, I am usually fine with 1gate tech in PvP and PvT, which would go into 3stalker rush and 1gateFE respectively. Unfortunately, I regularly use FFE against Zerg. I have tried putting my pylon on low ground first to be prepared for a zerg opponent, sometimes I would see my opponent is a terran and, guess what, I get killed. A similar story occurs whenever I face a protoss opponent. Then, I tried walling in my main, which was pretty safe, I think. But that then gave my zerg random opponent time to expand and beat me in economy. I have tried pressuring in my one base while expanding, but alas, he had more units and I got steam rolled. My question is, what opening should I do to be flexible for all three matchups? Should I learn 3 gate fast expand for PvR(Z)? Please and thank you:DD
Learn gate expands and do them well. Something like this.
Tyler's 2 Gate Sentry Expand
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=334564
I find from my vRs when they roll Zerg, that they try to take advantage of knowing that I'm Protoss and they'll blindly go hatch first a lot of the time, leaving them open to some light zealot/stalker pressure as well. In addition most Random players aren't particularly good at elongated games with all 3 races, indeed I've seen Zergs take stupidly fast 3rds against me because they forget how the flow of the game in PvZ works if the Toss isn't going FFE. Take advantage of these kind of errors and you'll profit.
The key is to have a solid build that you can transition to quickly upon scouting his race. This build will need only moderate tweaks and will still flow well, for example because you'll want to scout earlier than Tyler does to determine your opponent's race. Also in that thread people say that you can still hold 6/7 pools with it, so if a Zerg is sneaky in that sense you should still be ok. |
| | 'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - McBengt Also anyone with any questions or desires to help the Irish scene, PM me! |
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| Xaeldaren Ireland. May 11 2012 22:20. Posts 412 | Profile # |
| Does anyone have any advice on improving forcefields? It's the weakest part of my play at the moment and it's losing me games I should win outright because my micro is so poor. |
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| YesEvil Australia. May 11 2012 22:26. Posts 20 | Profile Blog # |
Alright this is probably already answered but I have to ask...
How do you beat a 1-1-1?
I have tried everything, and they always seem to have an army and be ahead in eco. Its ridiculous. |
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