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| mizU United States. June 12 2012 18:57. Posts 10010 | Profile Blog # |
I've been mixing in stargate in my PvP a lot recently and haven't lost with any variation of a 1 base stargate play.
What's the "counter" to stargate? Opponent goes stargate also and controls better?
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| | if happy ever afters did exist <3 @watamizu_ |
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| Abusion United Kingdom. June 12 2012 19:34. Posts 184 | Profile # |
On June 12 2012 18:57 mizU wrote:
I've been mixing in stargate in my PvP a lot recently and haven't lost with any variation of a 1 base stargate play.
What's the "counter" to stargate? Opponent goes stargate also and controls better?
If he goes blink all-in or blink expand it can be rough. Also if you don't get a robo and play safe with an obs DT's can flat out kill you. Archon/chargelot can be hard to deal with if you don't scout it in time but that's extremely rare. |
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| Smancer United States. June 12 2012 22:49. Posts 353 | Profile Blog # |
For Protoss versus Zerg in plat level play.
FFE or One base 3 gate robo.
I am seeing that the FFE build is more popular amoung pros but in practice is very difficult at the plat level to defend a roach or baneling push, and difficult to have the macro/micro skills to successfully harass a quick third zergs typically respond with.
On the other hand, for the zerg it is very difficult to defend a strong 3 Immortal push at around 8 - 8:30 mark without excellent micro and unit positioning as well as expertly placed spines.
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| | A good way to threaten somebody is to light a stick of dynamite. Then you call the guy and hold the burning fuse up to the phone. "Hear that?" you say. "That's dynamite, baby." |
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| Mikelius Germany. June 12 2012 23:23. Posts 498 | Profile # |
On June 12 2012 22:49 Smancer wrote:
For Protoss versus Zerg in plat level play.
FFE or One base 3 gate robo.
I am seeing that the FFE build is more popular amoung pros but in practice is very difficult at the plat level to defend a roach or baneling push, and difficult to have the macro/micro skills to successfully harass a quick third zergs typically respond with.
On the other hand, for the zerg it is very difficult to defend a strong 3 Immortal push at around 8 - 8:30 mark without excellent micro and unit positioning as well as expertly placed spines.
FFE is safe to everything if you scout. And at plat level you can get by by just scouting for a third at the 5 minute mark. If you see no third, add 2 more cannons and chrono sentries. I'm more concerned about fast lairs than any type of hatch tech bust.
The 3 immortal push as you said is pretty deadly and a good build to know, but there is also a 2 base version with 6 gates and 1-1. It hits later, at around 10:30 IIRC but it's a lot stronger, specially since you get 8-10 sentries. Last edit: 2012-06-13 05:58:58 |
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| NVRLand Sweden. June 13 2012 01:03. Posts 181 | Profile # |
On June 12 2012 18:26 Typicalbox wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 22:56 NVRLand wrote:How do I break a muta contain? Replay - http://drop.sc/195472I opened up pretty standard but suspected some kind of all-in (Gas + no third). I realize that I didn't prepare enough (Maybe I should have added more cannons?) but I didn't insta-lose to the 35 banelings (My observer JUST missed the baneling nest -.-) wandering up my ramp. However, after this I just couldn't get another expansion up. He massed up mutas and I tried blink stalkers but I just couldn't get a third up and running so eventually I ran out of money and lost. Any comments on this rep? I messed up in the beginning with the 14 nexus (I was just focused on remembering to cut probes for nexus+cannon+gateway that I did it too early, lol) Gold toss.
I go indepth on your replay inside the spoiler due to length! + Show Spoiler +I watched the replay and the problem itself wasn't really wasn't the muta play, it was what happened before hand. The Ling/Bane all in that happened is what did you in, and the muta were just the nail in the coffin. But I'll go over the whole thing as i took small notes as i went along the first time through the replay!
Everything looked fine and normal up to around here:
7:24 Zealot scouts no 3rd taken by the zerg. This should raise a red flag in your mind.
- Zerg need a large amount of gas income in order to produce units in volume in order to deal w/ protoss early/midgame pressure 3rd bases are required for this to happen. The fact that he doesn't have his 3rd taken at this point is a big tell of something happening normally ling/roach, ling/bane, or 2base muta (other builds can come from 2base, but these are the common ones)
8:24 Zealot spots that he has zergling speed
- When your zealot moved out to scout to see if he had a 3rd he didn't have speed, and when you were in the other main your zealot kills a number of speedlings - such "late" ling speed normally means that he plans on making more lings to do something with them. roach/ling ling/infestor muta/ling
9:45 Obs sees tons of lings hatch.
- Shits hitting the fan - large production cycles from zerg at this point means hes going to attack
10:18 F&#K BANES!?!?!
- Your obs spots a huge amount of banes down by your nat (wayyyy too late) - Poor FF's let in everything and you proceed to lose your nat, and all of your probes. THIS CAN'T HAPPEN. you must hold this!! This is where you lost the game. Holding that off means you auto win
11:30 Lost Nat and hold and remake nexus
- You hold that 'all-in' and start to make the long road back to recovery into trying to win the game.
12:25 Spot the 3rd finally going down for the zerg
15:42 Move out with force made up of mostly stalkers/immortals/sentry vs a HUGE number of lings and muta (you get blind sided by these muta, you had no idea they were coming) You get caught out in the open and surrounded, no amount of FF's can save you from the fate of you losing this army. * If you want to push out like this hug the walls and cliffs in the map so you can surround your forces with FF's easily.
After this it's a wash you make stalkers but really no amount of stalkers can stop mass muta - you make DT tech when the only thing that can really stop this is HT's and storms. TLDR: Ling/bane is what killed you and put you in a really bad spot (played from behind the rest of the game) You get stuck on 2 base and can't secure a 3rd and you went DT tech when you needed HT/Storm tech How to Fix: Pay attention to expo times, upgrade times, and get HT tech vs muta!
Hey man, thanks for the input! I will never stop being amazed of how nice TL is! So awesome to put up a replay and know that someone will take a look at it and give comments. Thanks!
Regarding the baneling all-in. I believe it was a mistake not to put extra cannons down when I saw no third + taking gas but even if I had, 35 banelings is a lot. Should I just forcefield them all out or forcefield the most out (Leaving like 5 banelings to enter every time?).
I just feel banelings are very hard to deal with as protoss as I don't have any tanks to rely on...
Thanks for the input tho! I guess the game was already lost and I shouldn't analyze the rest too much  |
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| Salivanth Australia. June 13 2012 14:33. Posts 826 | Profile Blog # |
| Would somebody be able to provide a VOD or replay (replay preferred as I don't have all that much bandwidth) of a 2-base Colossus all-in in PvT, done by a professional or at least high masters player? I want to do some late 2-base timings to improve my play by learning to hit those benchmarks very precisely. I don't have a GSL subscription unfortunately: Not worth it, since I can't watch many videos. |
| | <@Wikt> so you are one of those nega-fans <@Wikt> that hates the company that makes a game and everything they stand for <@Wikt> but still plays the game <@Wikt> (like roughly 30% of blizzard's player base, maybe much more...) |
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| rd United States. June 13 2012 15:32. Posts 2069 | Profile # |
On June 12 2012 22:49 Smancer wrote:
For Protoss versus Zerg in plat level play.
FFE or One base 3 gate robo.
I am seeing that the FFE build is more popular amoung pros but in practice is very difficult at the plat level to defend a roach or baneling push, and difficult to have the macro/micro skills to successfully harass a quick third zergs typically respond with.
On the other hand, for the zerg it is very difficult to defend a strong 3 Immortal push at around 8 - 8:30 mark without excellent micro and unit positioning as well as expertly placed spines.
It really depends on what you're trying to get out of your games. If you want to get better at PvZ, you have a LOT more to gain by practicing your forge fast expand and scouting for all-ins, as opposed to an all-in that basically hopes your opponent isn't prepared.
Losing isn't necessarily a bad thing if you're trying to get better. If you want to win though, a one base immortal all-in will get you wins but they'll only get you so far. Eventually builds based off of forge fast expanding will give you more success vs higher level opponents; even all-ins based off of forge fast expands.Last edit: 2012-06-13 15:33:56 |
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| hXc_ June 13 2012 17:27. Posts 117 | Profile # |
New silver player here (I've played for 2 weeks now )
What should I do against T, when I scout early tech lab and predict a stim timing?
Recently I've lost two times in a row to such a build when going with defensive 3 gate robo, similar to the one used against 4Gate. I just get oblitaretad.
I know my BO may not be useful against T, but as I don't know many openings yet and this one seems relativly easy and safe
or maybe it's an easy defense and I just mess my force fields on the ramp?Last edit: 2012-06-13 17:28:30 |
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| CrazyF1r3f0x United States. June 13 2012 17:34. Posts 1739 | Profile Blog # |
On June 13 2012 17:27 hXc_ wrote:
New silver player here (I've played for 2 weeks now )
What should I do against T, when I scout early tech lab and predict a stim timing?
Recently I've lost two times in a row to such a build when going with defensive 3 gate robo, similar to the one used against 4Gate. I just get oblitaretad.
I know my BO may not be useful against T, but as I don't know many openings yet and this one seems relativly easy and safe
or maybe it's an easy defense and I just mess my force fields on the ramp?
A 3 gate robo should do well against a stim timing, provide some replays and we can tell you what you did wrong in terms of execution. |
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| hXc_ June 13 2012 17:41. Posts 117 | Profile # |
On June 13 2012 17:34 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 17:27 hXc_ wrote:
New silver player here (I've played for 2 weeks now )
What should I do against T, when I scout early tech lab and predict a stim timing?
Recently I've lost two times in a row to such a build when going with defensive 3 gate robo, similar to the one used against 4Gate. I just get oblitaretad.
I know my BO may not be useful against T, but as I don't know many openings yet and this one seems relativly easy and safe
or maybe it's an easy defense and I just mess my force fields on the ramp?
A 3 gate robo should do well against a stim timing, provide some replays and we can tell you what you did wrong in terms of execution.
http://student.agh.edu.pl/~hxc/SC2rep/
both replays here
these are like my 15th and 16th game iirc
I guess I just paniced and completly didn't think about moving back, or actually I haven't came up with a defence plan |
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| Avean Norway. June 13 2012 18:48. Posts 392 | Profile Blog # |
| Any tips against zerg who goes mass roach ? Which is 99.9% of zerg nowadays. |
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| Salivanth Australia. June 13 2012 19:10. Posts 826 | Profile Blog # |
Avean: This has far better and more in-depth advice than anyone is likely to be able to give you in this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=327905
My own question, as it seems to have been overlooked:
Would somebody be able to provide a VOD or replay (replay preferred as I don't have all that much bandwidth) of a 2-base Colossus all-in in PvT, done by a professional or at least high masters player? I want to do some late 2-base timings to improve my play by learning to hit those benchmarks very precisely. I don't have a GSL subscription unfortunately: Not worth it, since I can't watch many videos. |
| | <@Wikt> so you are one of those nega-fans <@Wikt> that hates the company that makes a game and everything they stand for <@Wikt> but still plays the game <@Wikt> (like roughly 30% of blizzard's player base, maybe much more...) |
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| Chandra United States. June 14 2012 01:49. Posts 123 | Profile # |
On June 13 2012 19:10 Salivanth wrote:Avean: This has far better and more in-depth advice than anyone is likely to be able to give you in this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=327905My own question, as it seems to have been overlooked: Would somebody be able to provide a VOD or replay (replay preferred as I don't have all that much bandwidth) of a 2-base Colossus all-in in PvT, done by a professional or at least high masters player? I want to do some late 2-base timings to improve my play by learning to hit those benchmarks very precisely. I don't have a GSL subscription unfortunately: Not worth it, since I can't watch many videos.
I don't have any replays on hand, but I know ST_Squirtle frequently uses 2 base colossus timings. You could probably check the replays released for IPL4 or Red Bull Battlegrounds to see if he used any similar builds during those events.
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| Salivanth Australia. June 14 2012 02:31. Posts 826 | Profile Blog # |
Of course. Silly me and my proto-brain.
"Hey Salivanth. You know that guy? That Code S player, who does that 2 base colossus all-in? The exact player whom you watched murder Terrans again and again with that push, with starry-eyed wonder as you vowed then and there to master that shit, thus prompting this entire 2-base all-in rationalisation purely so you could do that push on ladder without feeling guilty? Too bad he's in GSL, and therefore doesn't have replays available. I'm sure he doesn't play in any other tournaments. Nah. That'd be stupid."
Thank you. I will do that. |
| | <@Wikt> so you are one of those nega-fans <@Wikt> that hates the company that makes a game and everything they stand for <@Wikt> but still plays the game <@Wikt> (like roughly 30% of blizzard's player base, maybe much more...) |
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| Salient United States. June 14 2012 02:34. Posts 337 | Profile # |
| I have some difficulty deciding what to do vs a Terran in two situations: (1) when my scouting probe is denied by a wall off and (2) when I scout 1 gas and there doesn't seem to be an early expo. I follow the MC 1 gate expo in both cases and chrono out a 4th stalker and go for an observer. Sometimes the Terran expands with MM and sometimes he all-INS, and sometimes he goes 1-1-1. The problem is that each of those builds requires a different response, but it is difficult to tell which one he is using until pretty late since some Terran all INS seem to hit around the same time as the zealot stalker poke. |
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| CrazyF1r3f0x United States. June 14 2012 04:00. Posts 1739 | Profile Blog # |
On June 13 2012 17:41 hXc_ wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 17:34 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:
On June 13 2012 17:27 hXc_ wrote:
New silver player here (I've played for 2 weeks now )
What should I do against T, when I scout early tech lab and predict a stim timing?
Recently I've lost two times in a row to such a build when going with defensive 3 gate robo, similar to the one used against 4Gate. I just get oblitaretad.
I know my BO may not be useful against T, but as I don't know many openings yet and this one seems relativly easy and safe
or maybe it's an easy defense and I just mess my force fields on the ramp?
A 3 gate robo should do well against a stim timing, provide some replays and we can tell you what you did wrong in terms of execution.
both replays here these are like my 15th and 16th game iirc I guess I just paniced and completly didn't think about moving back, or actually I haven't came up with a defence plan
Okay, so I'm not going to advise you on strategy, because you could really do any strategy you want in silver and be okay, that being said there are more efficient/safe builds versus Terran than 4gate->colossus.
That out of the way; I'd like to quickly mention that walling off serves no purpose against Terran, except to increase the amount of time it takes to place buildings--you'd be better of placing buildings near your nexus.
Now in terms of execution, if you are going to commit with a rush, just get 1 gas (or at least delay it, until you get off a few warp ins); the second one will slow down your push, but weaken your follow up. If you want a stronger follow-up, get the second gas as you did in game 1, and make sure to get the robo faster so you can get your robo tech out faster--you should also make sure to use the gas to add on sentries, force fields really compound the power of colossus.
Looking at game two--where you did a 3gate robo, I'd advise you to make less stalkers--try to get 4-5 sentries out, and have a lot more zealots and immortals. The problem with a stalker heavy Protoss army against bio with stim, is that stalkers will die far too quickly, you really need some zealots to tank in there, along with the immortal to dish out anti-armor, the sentry to supply guardian shield (making the zealots even tougher), and force fields to stop Terran units from kiting.
Keeping the effectiveness of the immortal in mind, a good way to do a 3 gate robo, in terms of build order is to the robo faster, as in get the robo shortly after the cybernetics core finishes, and after you have started your stalker, and your warpgate tech--then add the two additional gateways. This way you can get out the immortal faster, and have a higher immortal count later on, when/if a push like this comes. |
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| hXc_ June 14 2012 05:59. Posts 117 | Profile # |
| thanks alot, actually I have some problems with getting good unit composition, I still don't quite "feel" how much of what I need in games, I hope this will come with experience, so your advice will really help me out |
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| stormtemplar United States. June 14 2012 06:08. Posts 1919 | Profile Blog # |
| Can someone link me to a solid pvp build for a plat toss? |
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| CrazyF1r3f0x United States. June 14 2012 06:20. Posts 1739 | Profile Blog # |
On June 14 2012 06:08 stormtemplar wrote:
Can someone link me to a solid pvp build for a plat toss?
Alej posted some stuff on Gate-Robo-Gate in PvP on his youtube channel: Part 1
This is what I do PvP |
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| ZeromuS Canada. June 14 2012 06:24. Posts 8291 | Profile Blog # |
On June 14 2012 06:20 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 06:08 stormtemplar wrote:
Can someone link me to a solid pvp build for a plat toss?
Alej posted some stuff on Gate-Robo-Gate in PvP on his youtube channel: Part 1This is what I do PvP
I finished last season in mid masters around 700-800 points and I do it every PvP as well and I win a lot of games with it. |
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