The Protoss Help Me Thread

Hey guys, I do a 1 gate fe. Then I get a robo, twilight, warp prism, shrine, and 3 more gates. Then i do a little dt warp in, add 4 more gets, and get +1 defense and zealot charge, and all in off 2 base at around 120 supply. The big question I have is the order I should be building my stuff in early on. I often have trouble holding early terran pressure. How many gates should I have before I get my robo and twilight/shrine? How many units should I make to be safe vs. early aggression and the 10 minute push? I'm having trouble striking a balance between quick enough dt's and surviving.

Two examples of me failing: http://drop.sc/226911
http://drop.sc/226764

(the first game best showcases me getting owned by early pressure. the second one more showcases being an idiot and engaging at a pf

)

TIA!

SC2John United States. July 24 2012 16:35. Posts 927

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Hey, I'm fairly new to protoss, still trying to figure things out. While I'm a fairly good diamond player with about 100 APM and fairly good game knowledge, there are just some little tweaks about protoss that I can't understand. I'll just ask a bunch of questions because I'm having trouble wording it into a cohesive whole:

1) Do twilight council + forge go together? I mean, if I were to do some kind of expand that sets me up with 3-gate robo, would it be normal to build both the twilight council and the forge together and start working on upgrades while defending? Are there any other connections, like stargate + twilight or something like that? In my eyes, I'm seeing it as analogous to roach warren/evo or factory/ebay.

2) Is a build with 2 in (1) gas any good? If you have only 2, you can get a stalker + warp gate as soon as core finishes (you'll have exactly 100 gas). I've been playing around with this in FE builds, but it just seems subpar to 3 in one gas or 2 in two gases...I can never find the money to add on extra gases + gateways.

3) Still fairly new to how protoss works, but I've found that almost all early protoss aggression has been figured out. The only goal I seem to have is to get to 3 expansions as fast as possible and defend, but I'm not sure exactly how to followup. I mean, it makes sense in my head to either go for colossus or templar, but I find I always get stuck on gateway tech getting twilight and forge upgrades because I just don't have enough money for much else. Thoughts?

4) Protoss benchmarks are quite different from other races because of how warpgate + chronoboost mechanics work. I feel like I can't reliably say that in every game, with whatever build, I should have at least >THIS< by a certain time mark. Could I get some probe benchmarks, some expansion timings, etc. Right now I'm just trying to do everything as fast as I can, but I'm just uncertain if there's a way for me to go faster.

Sated England. July 24 2012 17:22. Posts 3450

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On July 24 2012 14:26 NrGmonk wrote:

Show nested quote +

It's in my protoss FAQs. By the time you scout it, you should already have an expansion building. Throw down a stargate and forge immediately. Proceed to make cannons at the front and phoenix, while focusing on zealots for your ground forces. This is all assuming it's a 1 base 2 port banshee all-in.

And now I feel dumb for not checking the FAQ first, but at least I had the right idea (minus the Cannons). Thanks

Last edit: 2012-07-24 17:24:17

EU Masters Protoss Playing For Team SC2Improve ~ www.sc2improve.org ~ "I'd rather play a strategy that is worse but that I feel confident in than play the better strategy not really feeling it and not being 100% behind it" - Grubby

ineversmile United States. July 24 2012 18:31. Posts 571

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On July 24 2012 16:35 SC2John wrote:
Hey, I'm fairly new to protoss, still trying to figure things out. While I'm a fairly good diamond player with about 100 APM and fairly good game knowledge, there are just some little tweaks about protoss that I can't understand. I'll just ask a bunch of questions because I'm having trouble wording it into a cohesive whole:

1) Do twilight council + forge go together? I mean, if I were to do some kind of expand that sets me up with 3-gate robo, would it be normal to build both the twilight council and the forge together and start working on upgrades while defending? Are there any other connections, like stargate + twilight or something like that? In my eyes, I'm seeing it as analogous to roach warren/evo or factory/ebay.

It depends on the match-up and what your priorities are. If your goal is to boost Forge(s) and get upgraded units quickly, you want to build a Twilight Council with 50 seconds left on the Forge upgrade timer, since that's how long a Twilight takes to build. If you need to defend against drops or something else involving multipronged aggression, you might want blink earlier and buid the Twilight sooner than then.

Another example is when you transition into double robo Colossi in the late game. You build a Bay and second Robo at the same time, since they have about the same build time. Then, when they finish, you immediately start double Colossus production.

2) Is a build with 2 in (1) gas any good? If you have only 2, you can get a stalker + warp gate as soon as core finishes (you'll have exactly 100 gas). I've been playing around with this in FE builds, but it just seems subpar to 3 in one gas or 2 in two gases...I can never find the money to add on extra gases + gateways.

Some of the European Protosses who went to Korea have been doing this because their goal is to get 16 probes on minerals, optimizing 2 per patch. Then they add on gases and put them in gradually with rally points. Sase and Naniwa both do this pretty often. The other thing that's relevant about 2 per geyser is that the third probe doesn't mine as much gas because there is a bit of waiting time outside the Assimilator, so putting 2 on each of 2 gases is not as effecient as 3 on one and 1 on another. Plus, you're threatening (from an information standpoint) either tech or macro play, since you have 2 gases and you could just put more probes on gas as soon as the Stalker comes to chase the scout worker out.

Also, as you alluded, if you only use 2 on gas you can get a Stalker and Warp Gates. People tend to do this when they're 4gating or going back to mineral mining for a faster Nexus.

3) Still fairly new to how protoss works, but I've found that almost all early protoss aggression has been figured out. The only goal I seem to have is to get to 3 expansions as fast as possible and defend, but I'm not sure exactly how to followup. I mean, it makes sense in my head to either go for colossus or templar, but I find I always get stuck on gateway tech getting twilight and forge upgrades because I just don't have enough money for much else. Thoughts?

I would say that all forms of aggression can be thwarted if your opponent knows about them. People still die to all-ins or big timings all the time, in all match-ups. Some aggression styles are actually just bad, though--over time they get phased out. But a lot of attack timings are still good, even if they are a known quantity.

4) Protoss benchmarks are quite different from other races because of how warpgate + chronoboost mechanics work. I feel like I can't reliably say that in every game, with whatever build, I should have at least >THIS< by a certain time mark. Could I get some probe benchmarks, some expansion timings, etc. Right now I'm just trying to do everything as fast as I can, but I'm just uncertain if there's a way for me to go faster.

A lot of it is relative. If you're pumping units from a 2gate opener, your WG timing is later and you'll have more units and pressure earlier. If you're boosting your WG research and adding on gates, that means you'll have a small army for a while and then you can build a ton of units at a time at a certain moment. Other than that, it's just like playing Terran. Everything comes out in waves, but you can build it at different places on the map--for better or for worse.

Nostradamus.146@AM, Nostradamus.398@KR, Nostradamus.922@EU http://www.teamliquid.net/blog/ins

Xanatoss Germany. July 24 2012 21:31. Posts 517

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Greetings!

In PvT I go for Partings 1 Gate FE and opt for a 1 Gate 3rd in case I can confirm a gasless FE from T.
Now my problem is I have a really hard time spending my chronoboost early on. There is not much than probes to boost but I dont have enough money at that point.
Anyone has an solution? I feel obliged to rush for colossi to defend the first medivac timing. Only alternative I could think of is to switch the support bay for twilight (and maybe a forge), get charge first and therefore delay gases 3-6 for a while to get more minerals. Besides, Zealot production is much cheaper than Stalker.

Edit: Replay

Last edit: 2012-07-24 21:31:40

The chair slowly turns around. You see his face, but it can't be. He's not supposed to be here. Not him. Not a Protoss. Not THAT Protoss. MC says, "Hi Greg, long time no see." You back slowly out of the booth. But you can't. It's already forcefielded.

Abusion United Kingdom. July 24 2012 21:49. Posts 184

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On July 24 2012 21:31 Xanatoss wrote:
Greetings!

In PvT I go for Partings 1 Gate FE and opt for a 1 Gate 3rd in case I can confirm a gasless FE from T.
Now my problem is I have a really hard time spending my chronoboost early on. There is not much than probes to boost but I dont have enough money at that point.
Anyone has an solution? I feel obliged to rush for colossi to defend the first medivac timing. Only alternative I could think of is to switch the support bay for twilight (and maybe a forge), get charge first and therefore delay gases 3-6 for a while to get more minerals. Besides, Zealot production is much cheaper than Stalker.

Edit: Replay

You just chrono probes and make sentries. The reason you have no money is because you're rushing for collosi. I feel this is a bad move as with the 1 gate 3 neus you're behind in tech and army but ahead in economy by a long way at the start. This means your fights do not have to be cost effective. Also rushing for collosi means you'll have little gas to make sentries or upgrades going for twilight tech and adding on a templar archive is the best bet and what all Korean Protoss's do after a 1 gate 3 nexus opening. They go 1 gate 3 nexus. Add on 3 gates add a twilight and 2 forges then another 3 gates. You should have charge nearly completed by the medivacs come and a 3 base army is > than a 2 base one.

Pylons + Probes

TheExodus July 24 2012 22:07. Posts 293

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Well don't try and defend the first medivac push. Instead go for a 7-8 gate attack with all chrono on gates at 8 mins or so before the medivacs are out. You should be able to do massive damage (or even kill him), delaying his first push until you have AOE out without rushing for it.

SC2John United States. July 25 2012 06:48. Posts 927

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In PvZ, when you hit 12:00, you're generally forced into a situation where you have to defend (if you went for a fast 3rd) with sentry/immortal/blink stalkers. The biggest problem I'm facing is that once I defend it, achieve saturation, and feel safe, I honestly have NO IDEA what to do.

Would most people be working on AoE while defending (templars or colossus)? Or would it be right to just max on immortal/sentry/blink stalker, then move out and attack? Is it conceivable to skip colossus/templar entirely, take a 4th, and start an air transition?

Even with an idea in mind, I have no idea when I'm supposed to attack or if I should attack at all. Could I get a specific response with specific times and numbers?

Abusion United Kingdom. July 25 2012 07:02. Posts 184

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On July 25 2012 06:48 SC2John wrote:
In PvZ, when you hit 12:00, you're generally forced into a situation where you have to defend (if you went for a fast 3rd) with sentry/immortal/blink stalkers. The biggest problem I'm facing is that once I defend it, achieve saturation, and feel safe, I honestly have NO IDEA what to do.

Would most people be working on AoE while defending (templars or colossus)? Or would it be right to just max on immortal/sentry/blink stalker, then move out and attack? Is it conceivable to skip colossus/templar entirely, take a 4th, and start an air transition?

Even with an idea in mind, I have no idea when I'm supposed to attack or if I should attack at all. Could I get a specific response with specific times and numbers?

http://day9.tv/d/Day9/day9-daily-481/ This is a daily Day9 did. Shows you when to attack with what unit comp at the exact time.

Pylons + Probes

Teeky United States. July 25 2012 13:58. Posts 81

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Zerg player getting my friend into Sc2. Chose Protoss. We've played a few games on Shattered Temple for fun, and I went over the basics of 4gate. What's the most fundamental or effective defensive build to learn right now?

Sorry if this is too bronze league. Feel free to throw in good resources/tutorials/lessons for beginning Protoss players. All very appreciated!

Last edit: 2012-07-25 14:04:47

Hydras are so bad your opponent wants them to stay alive. - Idra

eugalp United States. July 25 2012 15:41. Posts 203

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On July 25 2012 13:58 Teeky wrote:
Zerg player getting my friend into Sc2. Chose Protoss. We've played a few games on Shattered Temple for fun, and I went over the basics of 4gate. What's the most fundamental or effective defensive build to learn right now?

Sorry if this is too bronze league. Feel free to throw in good resources/tutorials/lessons for beginning Protoss players. All very appreciated!

Here is the list of basic protoss opennings: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=266786
You can also google for Apollo's protoss tutorial.

"More GG more skill" - White-Ra

Teeky United States. July 25 2012 17:08. Posts 81

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All of that is very helpful. It's where we'll start, thank you!

Hydras are so bad your opponent wants them to stay alive. - Idra

TheExodus July 25 2012 18:59. Posts 293

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If he wants safe builds for learning purposes I'd suggest 3 gates+ robo where the difference between matchups is mainly if you get the robo before or after expanding. Check dApollos tutorials, and also check liquipedia for 3-gate builds. In the lower leagues he won't be very out-econed if he's on top of his macro, and having similar builds for all matchups helps.

Saeldran Spain. July 26 2012 08:49. Posts 6

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I've been struggling in PvZ recently. Since I'm still in silver, I choose one build for every matchup and try to execute it properly. For PvZ I chose the 2 Immortal +1/+1 timing and since I have that build in mind (that is for 3-Base Zerg) since the beggining, if my opponnent goes for 2 bases I just freak out and don't know what to do. Also, I've faced 3-Base Zerg that just crush with mass roach because I don't really know how to FF properly and they just go melee range with their roaches and destroy my army. Any advices/another build for a silver Protoss? Thanks.

Last edit: 2012-07-26 08:50:45

ZeromuS Canada. July 26 2012 11:18. Posts 8296

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Any tips on dealing with the behind mineral line Cannon rush on daybreak? lost to it 3 times today. It feels like if the pylons get up I lose :x

uOttawa SC2 Club/CSL Team join@uostarcraft.com | Will we see a hatchery this game? - Tasteless (Game 2 Naniwa vs. Leenock MLG winter Arena)

eugalp United States. July 26 2012 11:34. Posts 203

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On July 26 2012 11:18 ZeromuS wrote:
Any tips on dealing with the behind mineral line Cannon rush on daybreak? lost to it 3 times today. It feels like if the pylons get up I lose :x

I always make my own pylon and gateway there, preemptively.

"More GG more skill" - White-Ra

etherealfall Australia. July 26 2012 11:55. Posts 393

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You move a probe there to prevent building of anything. No one really scouts before gateway so if someone does, suspect cheese.

blooblooblahblah Australia. July 26 2012 21:56. Posts 2718

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On July 26 2012 11:55 etherealfall wrote:
You move a probe there to prevent building of anything. No one really scouts before gateway so if someone does, suspect cheese.

I see people pylon scout quite a lot when they're playing a standard game at master level. I have no idea why, and it seems pretty pointless to me, but people do it and u can never really be sure. I think putting ur pylon in that spot would be the best way to deal with that cannon rush on daybreak. It's kinda like the old xelnaga caverns cannon rush, if u let it get up, it gets very difficult to win.

Ganzi beat me without stim. Ostojiy beat me with a nydus. Siphonn beat me with probes. Revival beat my sentry-immortal all-in.

PeggyHill July 26 2012 22:03. Posts 1460

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On July 26 2012 08:49 Saeldran wrote:
I've been struggling in PvZ recently. Since I'm still in silver, I choose one build for every matchup and try to execute it properly. For PvZ I chose the 2 Immortal +1/+1 timing and since I have that build in mind (that is for 3-Base Zerg) since the beggining, if my opponnent goes for 2 bases I just freak out and don't know what to do. Also, I've faced 3-Base Zerg that just crush with mass roach because I don't really know how to FF properly and they just go melee range with their roaches and destroy my army. Any advices/another build for a silver Protoss? Thanks.

A really simple build I have a lot of success with in diamond is 4 gate pressure in PvZ off a FFE.

Basically:

FFE - as normal

get +1 weapons before or after WG (try to get the both at similar times)

get zealot + stalker first (or 2 zealot stalker, or 3 zealot, whatever is your personal preference)

get 3 more gates in your main

push when WG, +1 done, warp in mass zealot if only ling, maybe a few stalkers if roach

This will kill a lot of zergs if they don't get their timings spot on.

Transition would be into robo if you see roach, twlight for blink if only lings. Robo is good to get for obs anyway, immortal if roaches.

Last edit: 2012-07-26 22:03:59

ineversmile United States. July 26 2012 22:25. Posts 571

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These are two different problems.

The first one is an issue with philosophical understanding. If your opponent has the same number of bases as you and he's playing very defensively, you probably can't break him. Instead, look into getting ahead as a method of punishing him for turtling. In the case of 2base vs 2base ZvP, you can plan to do your Immortal timing as usual, but if he doesn't take a third (or abandons it), build a third base at home and hold a contain on him for a little while until you get your own third up. Then you're up a base and he has to do something about it because otherwise you will max out before him and get an army that doesn't care about his defensive posturing. If you're concerned about not knowing what to tech or what kind of production to add on, just do things this way: get one more type of unit and 50% more production. If you build a Robo and 7 gates, go up to 2 Robo and 9-10 gates and get Colossus. Figure each base supports 4 gates or 3 gates and robo/stargate, so have about that much production per base. Don't worry about doing something completely different; stick to the build you know and just increase your production proportionately with each base.

The second problem is that Forcefields take some reflexes to use. Reflexes are partially innate, but they can also be increased through practice. The biggest help to you, however, is being more prepared to use Forcefields. When your army is going out on the map, you need to keep an eye on it almost all the time. If you're afraid of getting attacked while you look away during a warp-in, put down a couple pre-emptive forcefields to shield your army.

A really, really important thing to do when you're using sentries is to hold the F key and wait, instead of waiting and then pressing F-click. Going F-click-F-click-F-click is slow. Pre-emptively holding F and going click-click-click is waaaaaay faster. It's especially useful if you just need to plant a forcefield in one specific spot, since you can pre-position that forcefield and sit there with the trigger waiting for a well-targetted FF, right when you need it.

Nostradamus.146@AM, Nostradamus.398@KR, Nostradamus.922@EU http://www.teamliquid.net/blog/ins